New transfer system for youth riders

[Buhmann]

Äh, what for problems do you have exactly with me now???? I implement auctions and you tell me i´m the biggest idiot on earth.

I said yesterday, too that Div 5 teams are not beginners. And thats the raison why i want have auctions depending on the eternal points indirectly. By the way, your new post is complety different with the one before. Here you are talking about advantages in Div 1-4, last post you had problems with my priority for which teams i implement something.

Your are angry because i implement something. Tank you very very much! Maybe i make it that way many other games do and implement nothing new. Would be better for everybody. The auctions on the youth market was integrating with the words "testing it for the youth market and later we can integrate it for the other riders, too." Now i try to finish this area and you say "please finish one area, before you start with another...".

[Robyklebt]

I actually was serious with my post above.

What are the needs of beginners?
Of veterans in D5?
Restarters?
2 months breakers in D5
low experience but beginners in D5

and as well D1-4 of course.What are their needs.

THEN give targeted help. But first maybe identify the areas of needs? Then think how to address them. Or is everybody agreeing with my analysis?

And don't believe NoPik, we don't actually love you, we just like your body.

[team fl]

I actually was serious with my post above.

What are the needs of beginners?
Of veterans in D5?
Restarters?
2 months breakers in D5
low experience but beginners in D5

and as well D1-4 of course.What are their needs.

THEN give targeted help. But first maybe identify the areas of needs? Then think how to address them. Or is everybody agreeing with my analysis?

And don't believe NoPik, we don't actually love you, we just like your body.

my thoughts about this:

- What are the needs of beginners?

Beginners need a good way to make experience in the game. What action has which effect, which rider is a leader for which profile, and of course: How can i get succesful and have a succesful team.

I don't think that is makes a big difference if the have auctions or not. Anyway, in the beginning, mistakes to not hurt that much, and often are a good experience. of course, there will always be long lasting RSF-"idiots". But the questions about auctions or not does not change that.

- Of veterans in D5?

As a veteran in D5 I have a lot of advantages compared with other D5 teams: experience, knowledge about RSF-stuff, etc. Perhaps the most important disadvantage for veterans is not the transfermarkt system but the restriction for important races. At least this would be the case for me.

Thus, my conclusion is: Transfermarket is not that much important for a D5 veteran. And: In the future, I am sure that there will be more divisions and D5 included in the same system than D1-4 as it is at the moment.

- Restarters?

As a restarter, the experience is gone a bit. So it is maybe good to have some time to find yourself set again for the new RSF conditions, as there will always be some new elements after a certain time. The disadvantags are in my eyes the same than for D5-Veterans: restriction for important races and more than for D5 veterans: races in field 2 with complete new teams.

Also here, I don't see the Transfermarket or the access to youth riders as the big problem, although contrary to D5-vets, restarters don't have access to the youth market at all. At least at the beginning. But well, these are the terms. I don't see a big problem with that either.

- 2 months breakers in D5

Here it is almost the same problem as for D5-veterans. Usually you have a holiday-break or something else. But after starting again, you will be in D4 in a very shrot time. So, no problem for me.

low experience but beginners in D5

This category I don't really understand. Aren't most of the D5 teams beginners with low experience but with 1'500 eternal points? Well, anyway. Here the need is of course the getting fit to the RSF-conditions, to the tactics, to the handling, etc. In short: collecting experience. Maybe it is a motivation to be able to do lots of transfers or to have lots of youth riders, but in my opinion, this is not the main need, it is just a nice to have.


Conclusion:

- For all categories it is hard to tell and highly individual. But: We have to differ the following: What is a real NEED, and what is just a NICE TO HAVE. Another important question: Do we want beginners, restarters, etc to stay at RSF, no matter what, or do we want beginners or restarters that understand (again) RSF and its features so we have a high quality among the players here? Because according to my experience, with a high quality, almost every other problem/challenge can be solved much more easily, also the access to an auction market for the transfer- and the youthridermarket.

[Robyklebt]

Stay no matter what. Buh needs paying customers!

Ah the last category, don't understand it myself... think I meant something like 5000 points. Or maybe 150 races. Something like that. Gone from D6 for a while, but never been higher up.

[team fl]

Stay no matter what. Buh needs paying customers!

If this is the answer, then the answer to the questions of NEED or NICE TO HAVE is clearly: the NICE TO HAVE aspect is more important.

[Robyklebt]

No, I think NEED stays more important. But "nice to have" is more important than it would be if Buh wasn't a greedy guy who sits down when he pisses!

Ok, I'm going off topic... sorry sorry. keep going everybody!

[Radunion]

some thoughts about div 5 and 6:

I think auctions for young and experienced riders in div 5 are a good idea (separate from div 1-4). I do not see the risk that teams get in financial troubles because of the auctions. Most new teams have just 9 riders and have to earn money to make the mistake to pay to much. But the market must be changed before.

In my experience good riders are sold very rapidly on the div 5 market, so something should be done to keep the values of riders low. I think this could be achieved by creating a separate transfer market for div 6 teams. Good riders sold in div 5 should stay there (even if they earned no points so far) and not go to a lucky newcomer who often will not get happy with the strong rider. For div 6 teams nameless riders should be enough, and offer plenty of them to give every team the chance to get the riders they want. And maybe make it more difficult to get in div 5 (see next paragraph).

Teams in field 2 (or div 5+6 races) make to many points. A successful tour in field 2 with weak opponents earns you lots of points moving you too fast in div 5 or even higher. The team will have to ride with strong opponents and can get frustrated. Reduce the points in such races drastically. This will make it more difficult to get in div 5 and makes in fairer for teams that have to fight with good teams as there are no field splints for their preferred riding times. Additionally you will have to earn you div 4 by riding in field 1 and not with weak field 2 races.

[Zentaron]

And about the increasing amount of teams, and of "good" teams. Again, add another intermediate division (make it D1-5 vs D6-7). There are 40-50 "good" teams in D5 right now. I think this would be a good option for everybody.

I like it.

[Buhmann]

But "good" teams is not enough. Important is, that there are no teams which bid 200% on ever rider only for making trouble.

[Zentaron]

If you want to do it, you can do it right now. You just have to join Div 4.

[Buhmann]

Yes, thats true. But it is not sooo easy to reach this Division. Reaching Div 5 is really easy.

Okay, when we add onother division reaching Div 5 is not so easy, too.

Or we have the auctions as a good incentive...Div 5 like now but only with weaker riders on the youth market. Highest skill -1 or something like this. Means: Best climbers 72-55-77 for example.

But one question, that i can be sure that I understand it correct: You mean one other Divison AND one other transfer market? I don´t want to integrate another transfer market...a solution to combine our 2 to 1 would be better than integrate a third in my opinion...

[Zentaron]

(make it D1-5 vs D6-7).

This way. And then we can think about the modifications for the Div 6 and 7.
And to the idea with weakening the skills: There exists a thread elsewhere in the forum - in the german part, i think. There is also a discussion about the values and if it would not be better with at least -2.

[Rockstar Inc]

Yes, thats true. But it is not sooo easy to reach this Division.

not soo easy to reach div1-4???? oh come on please...

16 teams with less then 100 races in Div4..23 teams with less then 10000 eternal points in div4
12 teams with less then 200 races in Div3..
10 teams with less then 300 races in Div2..a team with less then 10000 eternal points in div2
10 teams with less then 500 races in Div1

next month we will have a team in div1 with 138 races...

you have to ride 1 or 2 tours with a little, really a little bit success and you can be in this circle...this famous div1-4

[team fl]

Conia, you ignore the fact that also without race experience, only with enough races per month, you get lots of points compared to teams who, lets say ride only around 15 races per month. For these teams, it is not easy, although they might be more succesful in average. So, in your very selective statistic, you should add the season points of the teams, the number of races the team has per month (average), etc. etc. pipao usw. oder auch nicht. AND, you can also buy points...

BUT, in general, I agree with you, that if you ride often, it is not soo difficult to reach D4 or higher. At the moment.

[Robyklebt]

Agree, it's probably not THAT easy to get to D4 anymore. Conversation with ZL, who takes a break each year and then is in D5.

Ape: You fucking sausage
ZL: Not addicted like you!
Ape: You fucking sausage
ZL: I won a group 2 race!
Ape: You fucking sausage!
ZL: Chatelain!
Ape: But ok, next month you'll easily be in D4, right?
ZL: No, don't think so. It's actually hard. Last time too, took me 2 months to get up, I start at 0, need to get 2xxx points, not that easy
Ape You FUCKING sausage
ZL: D4 needs less points to get up than D5!
Ape: You fucking sausage
ZL I'm in 135th place!
Ape: You useless fucking sausage
ZL: Can't do it in one month, just like that!
Ape: I piss on you fucking sausage. Then I eat you for breakfast!
ZL You eat sausage with piss for breakfast? China...
Ape: That's not what I meant you idiot, don't change my words! What I meant was...
ZL: Yes yes whatever, don't care. It's not that easy.

That was (maybe not word for word) 2 or so weeks ago. Now actually it looks like ZL might go to D4 this month, "only" 400 or so points left. But, it really doesn't seem that easy. Even for a veteran like him.

One thing we forget, field 2 already only gets 75% of the points. So if we look at the 26xx that nr 25 has now, it's more like 3000+ points translated to "our" system, full points. And often nowadays group 1 is not even that much stronger. Of course there not always in group 2, so not 3500 points, lets just say 3000.
Then D5 has become fairly competitive, 100teams races 13 races or more. A race every second day. In D4 it's 26, in D3 26, in D2 29 and in D1 26 (out of 30, not bad) A D6 has another 72. So we have 277 teams that ride at least every second day. And probably still slightly growing. And over one third of those are in D5, more than half of it in D5+6, together they fight for 25 spots to go to D4. So yeah, not that easy, agree with ZL, FL and company.

Add a 5th "Elite" Division. Why not. It doesn't really solve any of the "What to do with D5 questions", it just changes it to "what to do with D6" because in the new D6 there will be people like ZL too sometimes. A bit less, yes, because the fall down won't be as fast. Which is a good thing I think.

New 5th division, if Buh wants it, ok. I would go for 70 teams, continue the pattern, 30-40-50-60 add 70. OR make 3-5 at 50 each if 70 is too many.

But again, doesn't solve the general question.
Youth market and market generally, D1-4 (5) and the 2 lower divisions. Needs, how to address them?

Other posts: Not necessarily all about the market.

What is the real problem ? They cannot compete versus D1 teams. Well, that's ok, not a problem. We all went through that. And we're still alive
But to keep them interested in the game, give them their races! (more often)

100% agree with NoPik.

- What are the needs of beginners?

Beginners need a good way to make experience in the game. What action has which effect, which rider is a leader for which profile, and of course: How can i get succesful and have a succesful team.

I don't think that is makes a big difference if the have auctions or not. Anyway, in the beginning, mistakes to not hurt that much, and often are a good experience. of course, there will always be long lasting RSF-"idiots". But the questions about auctions or not does not change that.

Agree. But would add. They need good riders. Not necessarily for the future, that too, but now. They have them, better classics, better flat riders than in D1-4. The question is, is that enough? Or should those 2 rider types be strenghtened further? 27 year olds name geben. Right now 68-78 classics and 83 flatriders. IMO the classics could be increased further. 69-79. 70-80? Maybe 68-78 with sprint like now, those are good riders, but add 70-80 with max 59 sprint for them? Which are good riders too. Flat IMO clearly up to 85.

- Of veterans in D5?

As a veteran in D5 I have a lot of advantages compared with other D5 teams: experience, knowledge about RSF-stuff, etc. Perhaps the most important disadvantage for veterans is not the transfermarkt system but the restriction for important races. At least this would be the case for me.

Thus, my conclusion is: Transfermarket is not that much important for a D5 veteran. And: In the future, I am sure that there will be more divisions and D5 included in the same system than D1-4 as it is at the moment.

Agree

- Restarters?

As a restarter, the experience is gone a bit. So it is maybe good to have some time to find yourself set again for the new RSF conditions, as there will always be some new elements after a certain time. The disadvantags are in my eyes the same than for D5-Veterans: restriction for important races and more than for D5 veterans: races in field 2 with complete new teams.

Also here, I don't see the Transfermarket or the access to youth riders as the big problem, although contrary to D5-vets, restarters don't have access to the youth market at all. At least at the beginning. But well, these are the terms. I don't see a big problem with that either.

Agree again. And I say. give 6b the same right as d5 in regards to youth riders. 6b, not 6! And maybe maybe maybe, other topic we could think of giving D5 teams with a certain amount of eternal points, let's say 25% of the nr 1 (Skullz now, ) can participate in classics. Group 2 if there is a split of course, no group 1 wild cards. no stealing places from D3 teams. 75k points would be needed right now. Right now 21 teams would qualify in D5 for that, another 22 in D6b. Why not?

- 2 months breakers in D5

Here it is almost the same problem as for D5-veterans. Usually you have a holiday-break or something else. But after starting again, you will be in D4 in a very shrot time. So, no problem for me.

Agreed

Conclusion:

- For all categories it is hard to tell and highly individual. But: We have to differ the following: What is a real NEED, and what is just a NICE TO HAVE. Another important question: Do we want beginners, restarters, etc to stay at RSF, no matter what, or do we want beginners or restarters that understand (again) RSF and its features so we have a high quality among the players here? Because according to my experience, with a high quality, almost every other problem/challenge can be solved much more easily, also the access to an auction market for the transfer- and the youthridermarket.

Whatever, tired of reading FL already.

But agree with him mostly

Auctions for D5 are only a nice to have (and agree they are cooler and better than the first come first served system) not a need for anybody. They might be sort of a need for restarters or ZLs, but.... they are long term players already, no ultraspecial feature needed to keep them.

I think auctions for young and experienced riders in div 5 are a good idea (separate from div 1-4). I do not see the risk that teams get in financial troubles because of the auctions. Most new teams have just 9 riders and have to earn money to make the mistake to pay to much. But the market must be changed before.

Don't agree. There are unexperienced managers that pay too much in D1-4 too, if not this month next month, or last month. But it's a small number. In D5 it would be a much bigger number. Thanks to the reset and the immediate selling, they have huge flexibility. And IMO you are oversimplifying when you say most new teams have 9 riders and need money. most... many, ok. but many too have 9 riders and change them like you do your underpants. (not me, I keep them at least 5 weeks) buy-sell, buy-sell. Which depending on the reason is ok too, find a team you like, try different things. But teams like that risk pushing prices very high, because even if 'most' don't, many still do. The reason being flexibility mostly. It hurts big teams to pay 110 percent, it doesn't hurt small ones because if the guy doesn't work out he can be sold for with benefit, or a small loss. Hurting the D5 veterans. Others just don't know yet and overpay for useless guys, hurting themselves and putting themselves further back. Ok, maybe it would work, maybe a separate auction for D5-6b? But not fully convinced.
As well because... then what to do with D6? We can't let them start with auctions, wait x days to get their teams... automatic teams only? Mmh, thinking about it longer, get more reasons not to have auctions there. Right now you sell rider 9 you buy the new one. Then it would be sell, him, bid, and... if you don't get him can't ride since you have only 8 riders, then need to "buy directly" another guy to be able to ride (let's not forget that the auctions should be in for EVERY rider in the end)

In my experience good riders are sold very rapidly on the div 5 market, so something should be done to keep the values of riders low. I think this could be achieved by creating a separate transfer market for div 6 teams. Good riders sold in div 5 should stay there (even if they earned no points so far) and not go to a lucky newcomer who often will not get happy with the strong rider. For div 6 teams nameless riders should be enough, and offer plenty of them to give every team the chance to get the riders they want. And maybe make it more difficult to get in div 5 (see next paragraph).

Mmh, yes, bought AND sold. See the HUGE amount of D5 resetters that appeared in D1-4 thanks to the bug. It shows they are bought, and sold very fast. Which brings me back to my cheapened riders point... it's not helping.

Completely agree with good riders should stay in D5. Only nameless guys for D6. 100% agree. And again, maybe even slightly stronger ones for classics and flat than now. Other areas seem allright actually.

Teams in field 2 (or div 5+6 races) make to many points. A successful tour in field 2 with weak opponents earns you lots of points moving you too fast in div 5 or even higher. The team will have to ride with strong opponents and can get frustrated. Reduce the points in such races drastically. This will make it more difficult to get in div 5 and makes in fairer for teams that have to fight with good teams as there are no field splints for their preferred riding times. Additionally you will have to earn you div 4 by riding in field 1 and not with weak field 2 races.

With weak opponents.. .but you are a weak team too often. Disagree that they make too many points. Group 2 only gets 75% anyhow. D5-6 races get 100%. Don't see it as a problem, but could be lowered to 75% too. But it doesn't change much in the competition amongst themselves. Yes it's easier in D5-6 races I guess. ZL usually dominates (I don't, I get beaten up badly in those races usually) Ok...but winning is not THAT easy either, only one can win after all. The points for the lower places... yes, but that would be simple, points in tours according to category, leave the top intact, cut the lower places. Money and points, everywhere, cat1 tour, no points for place 30. Be it group one or 2 or 75. But ok, other topic, I usually tell Buhmann to do one thing, but do it 100% not 3 at 90%... so just finish the whole first market step. Auctions, clean up that separation. Cut the points further for group 2 IMO unnecessary 50%? 25% No, 75% fits. Fairness riding times... Well, you'll never get it fair anyway. Group sizes, experience, points. You want a system as fair as possible we will spend weeks trying to figure out a formula. Nr of teams. average races (and big problem already, Roby with 9 guys starting, average will be 180 races, but the group with 10 guys all with 100 r aces is actually tougher) average points. Then to make sure we don't count Marzahn as a superopponent on a HC stage, automatic teamanalysis average climbing, average everything, give a nr to each team for each type of race... highly complicated. Leave it like it is. And it's not that unfair anyway. Weaker times with less splits like my beloved afternoon, when it still exists of course have weaker group 1 too. So while a guy in the evening will have to ride group 2, easier, he will not automatically earn more points than the guy in group 1 in the afternoon in some tours. Vuelta 16 and 21 group 2. Vuelta 16 stronger yes, but 21 group 2 is not that weak either. Lucas English 89 mountain Equipe Risque, experienced, he would have good chances for stage wins at 16. Sprint is roughly equal in both groups. classics the big difference, much stronger 16. That the stronger topteams and the Huber. But it's not like I would just go in and dominate 21 group 2 while going under in 16 group one with my team. And last year the same Vuelta group 2 with Gonzos and ZL was actually stronger than group 1 at the top, both would have fought for the win in group 1, and not as outsiders. Vuelta 16h group 1 vs Vuelta groups 2 21.. it's not going to be a superhuge difference for beginners.

More strictly on topic, on the auctions:

I don't think any of the sold riders are bought for at least 90% of the price they have when they are sold... You can keep the auction stuff but you could make it more efficient I think. Do the price decrease (due to the auction part, no more cause of the age) after he reaches 100% of the riders' value... So go to auction till 90% of the value or so... Or do the price decrease faster cause of the age! You have 4538 riders on the market. There are 180 team in div 1-4... if you say there is approx 14 riders/team, you have 2520 rider there... It's just a bit more than the half of the riders on the market... Well, ok, there should be lot of riders which are old anyway.

My proposal : Do the auction go to 85 percent for sold rider untill 25 or 26 years old. A lot of riders are sold cause of presumed bad training (especially leaders)... Decreasing price could make them buy by other team where they can become leaders or good helpers.

Or

Do the price decrease faster for the young riders (till 26-27 years old). But ok, my main proposal is 1

Read that again Buhmann good stuff. Not completely clear what he means exactly, but like it if I understood everything correctly. Anyway, go further down, don't stop at 100%. AND make it faster.

And do it for all riders

1000-85 percent 48 hours.
Then further down with the system now. Whatever that is.

Other things:

-Introduce the 50 day rule for youth riders. Don't care if you do it from the first of the month or from the moment they were bought like you wanted to do once, but introduce it.

[gaurain rx]

Roby understand good

[Buhmann]

But what do we do now with the Div 5 youth marke? Did i overlook sonething or is that theme still open?

[team fl]

But what do we do now with the Div 5 youth marke? Did i overlook sonething or is that theme still open?

D5 youth market, my suggestion:

- as long as D5 is the lowest division with infinite teams, leave it separate to D1-4. As soon as it is limited to - lets say for example - 70 teams and D6 is the lowest division, connect it to the D1-4 youth market and enlargen it a bit, accordingly to the plus of teams.

- for now, leave the D5 youth market as it is. But give yourself a time limit for adding a regular D6 to the system. If this time limit is more than 1 year, think about some reforms for the D5 youth market until the end of the year. I think there were enough ideas yet from lots of users to pick from.

[Buhmann]

Okay, summary of the most imprtant things i have to do now for the TM:

Adding a division
Div 1-5: Whole transfer market like now in Div 1-4
Div 6-7: No youth market

Changing the current transfer market on Div 1-4(5): Possibility to bid for riders until they reach 85% of the market value.

You are welcome to expand this list.

[team fl]

Another question is, the transfermarket for "new" D6-7 with or without auctions? I would say D7 without, but D6 with auctions. Like this D6 teams can learn about the auction system and have some experience, when they enter D5 with an auction market AND an auction market for youth riders. Still able to do mistakes without a too big impact for their teams.

[Buhmann]

I think auctions for Div 6 teams are problematic. There can exist much more multiaccounts than in higher division. Cheater will be a big problem and the prices for riders could be too high. So in my opinion no auction systems for the new Div 6. Means: Same like now,. Only difference is that we have a Div1-5 market instead of a Div 1-4

[team fl]

I think auctions for Div 6 teams are problematic. There can exist much more multiaccounts than in higher division. Cheater will be a big problem and the prices for riders could be too high. So in my opinion no auction systems for the new Div 6. Means: Same like now,. Only difference is that we have a Div1-5 market instead of a Div 1-4

Than do it like this. It's your decision

But what I ask myself: How do you cheat when bidding high on riders? The selling team won't get a higher revenues anyway. The only reason for bidding high is either because you don't know better or because you are somehow evil... In both cases, you damaged your team and perhaps some teams who wanted that rider too (at least the second highest bidding team...).

[Buhmann]

The only reason for bidding high is either because you don't know better or because you are somehow evil...

I think there will some of them. Problem: One teams is enough to destroy the auctions. Okay, good is that it is easy to identify these teams.

[Radunion]

I do not think that auctions in the new div 6 are a problem. The teams have to earn points (ride races) to get there, so anybody who cause troubles (deliberate or because of his inexperience) will soon run out of cash. The will be forced to make a reset.

There is the only question: Do teams stay in their div after an reset or do they start again in div 7 (now div 6)? If the later is the case hopefully they have learned something and cause no more trouble when they are back in div 6.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Auctions in the new div6 could be a problem because of the balance between the number of offered riders and active managers. It's simply a question of supply and demand.
In the new div1-5 there will always be the same number of managers with round about 95% of them being active. In div6 the number will vary, just think about summer holidays in Germany. Ok, maybe you can find a formula like
number of active managers * x = number of riders on the transfer market