New transfer system for youth riders

[Robyklebt]

Radunion

No, the goal isn't necessarily to make them more expensive. Although a certain market adjustment in the prices is more than welcome. A certain type of rider needs to go cheaper. For the moment all the reg guys basically. Especially sprinters and so on. Niche riders like Hubers and Alighieris (bought on the 21 one, grrr) probably as well. Others wil lautomatically go for more. the 56-74-79, he will go for more too right now as well. But already the 56-72-75 could go for 95% right now.

There are 180 teams bidding for 144*30 riders a month. 4320 riders for 180 teams. YES, of those 4320 many are shit. Yes. But too many are not.

Climbers? Right now 'only' 6 73 on. One a 73-54-70-50-46 with 58 reg for 3'142'xxx. Fairly sure he will not be bought. He has 5 downhill too few to be a real real topstar.
Then a 71-51-79-60-54 with 56 reg. Another very strong guy. not my type at all, who wants 60 TT- 3'390'xxx. He will not be bought either I suspect. Only 51 flat, wäää. And expensive. And the whole month there have been strong climbers on the market. Some bought, some not bought. Because with so many riders offered everybody can afford to wait a bit longer, the next 73-55-75 will be coming sooner or later. Why take the 73-54-70 in that case?
Sprinters? Lots this month, again, the one by ZL was bought for 100k less he says... the perfect one 50-59 was bought way over market value again. But 50-58 already isn't. And 50-55 doesn't even get offers it seems (at least that's the one I think I bid on and nobody wanted him) Right now too, there are a few good sprinters. That very likely won't get bought. 48-59 82 sprint, but 64 reg. No problem if somebody like that goes cheaper. But he very likely won't go at all. Rightly so, with the high amount of sprinters that seem to be there this month (did buh change the percentages????, seems much more than last month) Another one 48-57 with 82 sprint, only 55 reg. This one better other skills, downhill, no TT, 2,3x market value. This is a guy that really should be bought. Will he? If I was looking for a sprinter I would wait a bit longer. wait for the 49-59 with 50 reg that will be a bit cheaper again...

What's the point of giving everybody everything he wants. Skull in another thread wrote "RSF needs stars" Right. Of course he went at it exactly the wrong way... he wanted to let us design our dream rider, so to have 180 dream riders a month, 180 potential stars, which of course in the end means: Nobody is a star, just lots and lots and lots and lots of riders with superb values. If we want stars not everybody can have one, since otherwise nobody is a star... Simple, no?

Right now there are 4320 riders available per month! FOUR THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED AND TWENTY! More if the month had 31 days.. For 180 teams. How many 20 year old will those guys buy on average in a month? Last month it was shockingly low, might be because some waited for the 1-5 market, some scared of high prices bought before. But I'd be surprised if on AVERAGE it's more than 100. Before we had 9000 riders per month I think, on average a new market every 3 days if I'm not mistaken. So let's say double. But for more than double the teams. 170 D5 teams have a race this season so far. Of the 180D1-4 teams it's 158. And my GUESS is that D5 actually buys more youth riders on average. There's 511 21 years olds in the game right now. And NO WAY even close to half are bought by D1-4. And I seriously doubt more than 50 were bought in the auctions in D1-4. Buh sent me his list to analyze, never know he he likes it when I then write the numbers openly.. but anyway, a few days before the first of May, 35 riders had been bought in auctions... That number probably increased in the last days, yes, but doubt it went to even close to 100. The rest was bought on the 1-5 market by D1-4 and in D5. Back to the point, more riders available for D1-4 than before. Plus they can be had cheaper. Is THAT the point of the reform? I think not.

So back to the original question, increase in price: As I said, for some yes. Low reg definetly, their market price is just actually too low, since when Buhmann did his reform in 2008? with the 30" tact and the colours for tempo, the reg has just become much more unimportant. And since the prices weren't adapted, reg is hopelessly overpriced right now (The joke of the whole thing still is that Buhmann at the time said, it should become more difficult for 35 reg guys to be competitive in tours...) so if you ask me if a rider with very good skills and 35-40 reg should become more expensive, I clearly say YES.

Just too many riders.

So Buhmann:

-Interval 15 min.
-MAYBE later adjust the frequency of the different rider types.
-viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1502 Yes, introduce one of the 2 limits now.


A solution for the D5+ youth market.

- No idea about D6 right now, do they get them? See pro and contra, don't really care.
- 6b gets the same treatment as D5
- For both the viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1502 counts as well.
- My favorite solution right now (it changes every 2 minutes...) give them the leftovers from D1-4 auctions for 95% of the price. And let the guys that fall down just stay there the rest of the month.

Normal market:

D1-4

-Only 21-24 'name geben' for D1-4. With new top and low values, which I will write in a few minutes or hours, since loading any RSF page right now takes me 2 minutes....
-With auctions too obviously
-Sold riders: Auctions. Including the "Verbilligung". Details once you start programming, so in 2 days. That's an order.
-Riders on the market: 30 days without an offer=retire.

D5-6:
- "name geben" until 27 or 28 like now. Values later.
- Non auction system like now.
- No "Verbilligungen" in D5. They make no sense. Why were they introduced? Do you remember. I do. So that known riders, not only stars, who get sold with 29 or so still have a chance to find another team. There are no known stars in D5, there's only shit that wins shitraces. No need to make shit cheaper. Advantage of D1-4: You get cheaper sold riders. Stop trying not to "punish" D5+. They need to get some advantages, for the start, but there have to be some disadvantages as well. No cheapened riders is one. Better name geben is an advantage that of course has to stay.
- Riders sold in D5 with not enough races, 20 at least, get deleted automatically regardless of won points. Then over 50 races OR over 500 points they get on the market, otherwise deleted. Under 20 races as I said kicked immediately.

That should keep you busy for a week, will post the next step in a week or so.

Oh, Franconiapost: No Franconia, ZL doesn't have to see that. There were a few good sprinters not bought in April too. But yes, it looks like our Buh could have changed something there. And made it worse... Right now there are shitloads of sprinters.

Aripost too: Yep, right now none there it seems. But shitloads of 54-72-70+ 5 plus a Leupold. The guy with 64+ sprint will come sooner or later. Last month? Manuel Nicolas might qualify. Luc Ferns too, or too much reg?

[NoPikouze]

Mhhh... When I make an offer (95%, but with a "date", not a never), and close the rider screen, the offer disappears !

I'm glad i dont care about the rider

[Buhmann]

Strange. But 96% works?

[NoPikouze]

Now everything works fine, don't know what happened. Sorry for the trouble

[Buhmann]

So, what do you think? Are there enough riders on the marcet? Too few good riders? Too many? Is there enough competitions so that the auctions make sense?

[Zauberlehrling]

Too many riders! There is some competition, but I would like a bit more of it.

One per 15 Minutes would be enough I think.

[Robyklebt]

I think there are fewer riders now ZL....

[team fl]

I randomly bid on riders just to see how it works. At least for the good riders like, 56-73-73 and 73-56-76, or 56-7x with 6x sprint and 7x pave, the final bids where almost 10 % over the marketprice.

Next step, I have a look at the kindly helper type of riders, the 46-65-65 with 50 reg.

[auxilium torino]

i think that are to much riders with good Crono value, expecials into the helpers.
maybe is only my idea, i don't know, but...what think Roby???
And yes, Reg at moment to expensive, but not really make the difference!
another impression:Mountain value price are not enough expensive related to the success chance,expecials if we compare this against sprint, crono and reg value!

[Radunion]

How is the price for riders calculated when you sell them? It seems that the riders I bought for less then 100 % will not rise in value at all. I do not think this is a good idea as it will make the transfer market even more uninteresting. In the past I used to sell riders between 24 and 30 (and buy young riders) to keep my wages low. With 30 % tax (and I do not think there are many teams with lower taxes) you still don't make money with these riders, but you limit the influence of the tax.

If you really want to make it more difficult to make money out of trading riders, set a cap after the tax. That means you cannot sell the rider at more than 95 % of the price you paid for him, independent of your tax. This will not hurt teams which buy the riders to race with them, but eliminates the fear of some managers, that teams get rich by buying and selling riders instead of riding races.

With this rule it should be able to pay teams the full price when they sell their riders. The same is done for riders you buy on normal market for a little below the value defined by the game (verbilligte Fahrer).

[Robyklebt]

Mmh, Todea's value, whom I bought for less than 100%, seems to have increased normally. Aah, but you are right, there seems to be a bug

1'958'750 value when I bought him
1'906'786 price I brought him for
2'239'067 his value now

If I sell him I get

2'239'067
-56,70%

825'571

Mmh, 825'751 is not 43,3% of 2'239'067, but of 1'906'630, which seems very close to the price I bought him for.

No other notice, compensation, not enough time in the team etc, at least nothing written. But the calculation shown clearly is wrong... mmh.. buggy Buh, do something!

Edit:

Seems I get 36,87% for Todea right now. maybe he still demands compensation because he hasn't been in the team 50 days? Possible too, but then the display would be wrong. (Well, the display is wrong no matter what actually)

Don't remember exactly how it worked for the 20 year olds, think Buh though about implementing it for them too finally, from the moment they were bought as 20 year olds.... But not sure. Ha, I'm going to hijack ZLs account now to check stuff

[Robyklebt]

Ok, checked ZLs account:

Knuchel 21 years old, goes for roughly xx percent of the buying price. So no 50 day rule implemented yet... would kind of be time to do that too one of these days.
Bessy 22 years old, goes for roughly xx percent of the buying price

xx is what ZL should get after tax, might be a state secret, so won't write it here. But like with Todea it's very close, but not exactly that, maybe my % calculation is not up to date...

But seems clear that the selling price is calculated from the buying price and stays there .IMO it should be the value all the way...

[Radunion]

The shown calculation is wrong for all riders that you bought below its "value", what is even more extreme for older riders you bought way beyond its "value". If you substitute "value" with "price" the calculation should work. The questions remains how the "price" is calculated. It would be interested to know what happens to rider you bought above its "value" and whether the current solution is the best possible.

And yes, the 50 days rule is clearly missing.

PS: I think an economist would be furious about the usage of the terms value/price (Marktpreis/Preis) is the game.

[skull]

the money you get is calculated by the price
and the under-100-percent youth riders are handled like normal reduced-in-price riders
that means the price cant rise above what you paid
i like that
when you want to make money pay 100% or more (that assumes that these riders normally grow in their value - i cant validate that right now - but i think they will)
maybe booboy can enlighten us

[Radunion]

I really do not like to discuss the topic, without the information how the system works now. But I can give a additional information. A rider you bought at more than 100 % you can sell at the higher price (minus tax). As this is also relevant for the calculation of the team value and therefore the tax it really makes a difference (e.g. a team buying many riders below 100 % will have a lower tax).

[Pedrocito]

hum, I have a question.
if I do an offer today for a young rider and the auction terminates on July 2nd: when will he join the team? July 2nd or August 1st?
has the day he discovers the market an importance or just the day the auction ends?

[Lizard]

I think he'll join 1st of August... after you got the rider it's always the 1st of the following month he joins.. is that correct Buhboy?

[Robyklebt]

Don't think Lizard
They join the team in the month after they appeared on the market. So everything that appears on the youth market before midnight, or maybe even season change, which I have no clue when it is, will join in july. Decisive is when the rider comes on the market.

[Lizard]

Oh, but then the limit for the riders must be 5 days on the market, eh? Because else they'd miss the first training and we don't want that..

[Robyklebt]

Yes, yes, less than 5 days on the market

Anyway, Buhmann

-20 rider limit, didn't work with the youth market. does it work now? or ist there a change in policy? either way, make it consistent.
-50 day rule in whatever form finally needs to be implemented for youth riders. You once said you'll do it, 50 days from the moment the rider is bought. Ok for me, 50 days from when he actually joins sounded better to me, but ok, make it 50 days from when bought. But do it. D1-4 only, since d5 has the reset anyway.
- The youth riders bought for under 100% that don't gain value thing. you explained to me how it generally works for cheapened riders: whatever is lower, market value or the bought price. For youth riders that makes no sense since it just 'binds' them to the team that bought them. Change it. Simplest. percentage of the market value. so always the percentage they were bought for, but max 100% so bought for 95%, that's what they will be sold for, 95% of their market value at the time.
- change the layout of the bidding popup slightly. put the buy immediately button somewhere else, not next to the bid window. yes, if you think about it a short time, you get it, oh, that window or however you call it where you input a number is only for bids, but we don't always do that here... and it has already happened that managers thought to buy a guy directly for the number they put in, but bought it for the number a line further down on the right. put that buy directly, immediately button next to that number.
- change the info on the all bids screen a bit. include the buy directly bids, which last time I checked, ok it's been a while, but guess it's the same. the buy directly things have to be included. right now, i repeat, they are not, don't appear. Plus why not a row more, where you mention which bid was accepted.

That's all very basic things, that should have been solved a while ago.

a bit less basic:

- what to do with d5. anyway, is 6b included now or not?

even less basic and now you'll forget the basic stuff, anyway..

- make d1-4 auctions for all 'no name riders', name geben i mean, not sure how they are called in english. same system, same thing. basically.
- adjust the starting values for 22-25 year olds, don't offer older ones in d1-4 anyway, see separate thread.
- make d1-4 auctions for riders sold in d1-4, here is more complex, the discount rules. but the auction idea first actually came up exactly in this discussion, instead of having all the managers that want daniel lopez checking the tm nonstop, then the first one who sees him gets him, let money decide.

you started this damn thing, why not just finish it? the ultrabasic stuff should be done like a month ago.... do some time travelling. the rest.. I mean, just take some time, to think it over, what to do with d5 6b for youth riders. Think it over, ask here what other think, think over the answers, make you decision. That could be done in one week. Less. 2 days. Then the same with the even less basic stuff, it's the logical conclusion of the youth market reform, having a mixed system is just strange, not having it for the sold riders even more.

I know you don't like it when I call something at rsf a flickenteppich, but here you see exactly why it is one and how you create it. start something, don't think it over completely, just with the idea to do something new and exciting for the old guard, youth market auctions seemed popular, you did the new design which got you lot of criticism, 'wasting time', so you want to give us something else... but then you don't know exactly what you're going to do when you start, you don't finish it, we then have special stuff, like the less for 100% things, let it lie around long enough and it's not a bug anymore, but a rule. Just finish it. the first points are so obvious and in the end banal, the 3 first ones more important, the 2 others just user friendly and more intuitive that you should just do it as soon as it's mentioned... by waiting and waiting the list just grows until it becomes more work. Finish that shit now.
The rest til the first of August. Then time is up.

[Robyklebt]

One more for the ultrabasic, in case it isn't done yet, don't know

- youth riders restriction, make it work for 20 year olds. if you have 1 23, 1 22 and 4 21 year olds you should be able to buy 1 20 year old. wasn't possible a while ago, possible now?

[Radunion]

- youth riders restriction, make it work for 20 year olds. if you have 1 23, 1 22 and 4 21 year olds you should be able to buy 1 20 year old. wasn't possible a while ago, possible now?

still not possible (at least yesterday it was not)

[Buhmann]

Should be work now. If somethings does not work there, let me know.

[Buhmann]

- make d1-4 auctions for all 'no name riders', name geben i mean, not sure how they are called in english. same system, same thing. basically.

Any raison against? In my opinion this should be okay, too.

But i think i would implement it that way: Auctions like now the youth riders until the rider reach the 95%. After that the current system, means without bids but with price decrement depending on the age.

[Robyklebt]

ok, nobody commenting, so the ape will. surprising everybody.

don't get it.

the name geben system so far is without a price decrease as far as i know? no? new rider on the market, he stays at the same price forever. well, until there is a refresh and he disappears.

so the simple thing here would be to do the same. we can have more complicated things too though. but let's go for the simple one maybe....

simple is:

separate it d1-4 and d5+

d5+ as know, roughly, more about that simple issue later.

d1-4, aha, here comes an old robyklebt thingy. adjust the starting values. look at this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=60&start=25

post robyklebt from the 11.05. 19.59 the time.

something in this direction.
only 21-24 year old name geben for d1-4, with different skills, from now. better generally, makes no sense to have everybody that starts his pro career with 22-24 have big disadvantages over the 21 year olds. worse skills and higher price. plus unless it's early in the month, missed trainings, while that can be avoided with the 20 year olds for 21 year olds no system in place for 22-24 about that.

some other proposals, among others.
increase the flat for sprinters more by radunion. imo worth thinking about it.
72 max for all skills in all combination by skulls. because he says so it seems.
8 riders per race by luna, because he run out of things to say about the topic. forget those 2 last ones.

then, think about implementing 21-23 year olds in the youth market. they will then join the team one month later as 22-24 year olds. why not? second step, but after making them more attractive skillwise, see above, with the higer price they still will be less attractive. the amount of riders in there the same problem as with the 20 year olds.


d5+
no auctions, same system as now.
21-27 year olds as now.
skills. see the skillpost in the other thread.

but. as with 20 year olds.. .think about ''weakening'' them generally.
simplest, 72-73-78-76-81 the max skills in the d5-6 market for 21 year olds. with all combinations. in the end it doesn't weaken them that much... conti 95 started with 81. 50-59...81. so in d5+ a 49-58-81, so he would get to 53-61-95 with the same training. in the end it's more a cosmetic weakining, not purely, of course, with 73 the chances to get a 91 climber of course are a bit higher than with 72... but it's still nice and simple. topriders of that agegroup will rather sign with a topteam.
but still offer 27 years olds with 85 mountain etc. even 86 flat why not. details if case you are interested later.

d1-4 again the auctions, the simple thing would be... like 20 year olds, down to 95% then the bug that makes them go down a bit more, then disappear. easy, simple. number, no clue, test and tweak. the more complicated thing would be. let them go down further depending on the age... so maybe a 24 year old can go down to 90? or 85? but not convinced, would need a longer study session to think about it.