Points and money for jerseys during tours

[olmania]

Read the whole thing, not only the introduction. Print it out, take it to the office, read it when you go to the toilet.

My roomate asked me what's the new embellishment of the bathroom.
I've just answered "Ask the ape"
Now, he looks me weirdly ...
Thank you for your bad advices roby

[ariostea]

i read the Roby-post.

what i like most:

Third proposal

Top 3 places according to the category

Basic

110k+10k*cat
65k+5k*cat
50k+2,5k*cat

Would be
1 2 3 4 5 6
120000 130000 140000 150000 160000 340000
70000 75000 80000 85000 90000 190000
52500 55000 57500 60000 62500 130000



Cat six double everything, like now. Cat 1-5 only change the money from the top 3. Using the system from proposal nr 2 then the total would be

that´s cool. but i would change money-system for ONE DAY Races (Roby-proposal No.2) in another way - more like:

1. 140k
2. 70k
3. 50k
4. 40k
5. 35k
6. 30k
7. 28k
8. 26k
9. 24k
10. 22k
11. 20k
12. 18k
13. 16k
14. 15k
15. 14k
16. 13k
17. 12k
18. 11k
19. 10k
20. 9000
21. 8000
22. 7000
23. 6000
24. 5000
25. 4000
26. 3000
27. 2000
28. 1000
29. 750
30. 500

total: 640 250 - so more or less the same we have now. what i like better than throwing more money in the game.

the interesting places for smaller teams (around 10th place) are hardly changed (0 to 1000)to the current system, so no problem still to survive for these teams compared to now. what is always important for Buhmann in this discussion.

to Roby´s proposal Nr.2: i think 4000 for 30th place is far too much!
the places from 31-40 should not get money at all - even for the smallest/newest team in RSF this is no success at all. so what to give money for?
and i also don´t think it is the right way to give more money for 20th-30th place for getting teams stopped to ride for 10th place, just because the money is more or less the same. let´s just give more for the first place and let´s hope they will ride for it...

@ Roby: i did not understand the meaning of proposal No.4

money in tours:

yes - let´s do the money for GK depending on the cat. of the tour

Cut money for cat 1-4. Here 2 ways 2 do it:
1: Have a fixed scale for all tours: Then a percentage, cat 5=100%, cat 4 95% cat 3 90% cat 2 85% cat 1 80%, something like that. The winner of a cat 1 tour, 5 days, then would get 200k instead of 250k now. Etc.

i like this one better than the second.

the other real problem: wearing Jerseys... i don´t think we need the radical thing. if we convince Buhmann to give money for the Gk depending to the cat., he will do the same with the jerseys.

@ Buhmann: try the Roby-post. it looks worse than it is. i would even say it is readable.

[Buhmann]

I read the complete stuff.

First, it seems that you ignored this:

Money not according to category says Buhmann

140000
2 70000
3 50000
...

Very much for the winner. But maybe it helps, that more teams fighting for the victory. But i don´t think that it would change so much. The question: Will some teams make too much money?

The other approaches depend on the category...do you really want to have a depending on the category or do you want that money depends on the length of a tour? Ok, depending on length makes this more complicated for the user.
And am i the only one who see the problem, that in winter the teams have not so much money as in the other months? That could be realistic, but this is really silly for a game which some people only play for a few months.

Furthermore i would like to change the money that way, that it is more important for teams trying to win a stage than now. Now you need a rider for the classemement, so that nobody takes a risk to win a stage instead of keeping a 9th place.

[Robyklebt]

Oh no, please.

Got it, it's one of those fix ideas of yours that have very little basis in the RSF reality you're chasing again. Help...

Ok, more tomorrow or so, but if I understood your goal correctly, be warned, as you might have understood from the sentence above, I don't think much of your goal.

[Robyklebt]

Ok, not tooooo motivated for this topic...

Why? All I wanted was a fairly simple thing.

Money for jerseys, too mcuh now, current example, Tour du Jura, Bearclaw wins the first stage, get's green 30k, second stage keeps it, 30k, keeps it the third stage too 30k, loses it the fourth day. Maybe finished second or third finally, not sure, ignore that part. He got 90k for wearing green (well, having it not wearing it) 3 days. Last day Maurice got it. He earned 30k for getting it, then for actually winning it for the tour he got 40k, total 70k

So we get:

3 day jersey wearer, stage one winner: 90k (+maybe more for a second or third place)
Jersey winner: 70 k

It's obviously not right, it's obviously something that needs to be corrected.

Second point was, correct the oversight from when the new points scale was introduced. We simply forgot to take care of the points the jersey wearers and winners get, so it's all very illogical now. easily corrected, tie it to a place on the stage for the wearer, general for the winner, that's it.

And that's all I wanted. Ok, didn't expect to get it either, after all point nr 2 has been refused for mysterious reasons for almost 4 years (and I agree it's not that important, but an aestethic thing (not really either, but couldn't come up with a better word)) the money has been discussed, decided, forgotten before as well. Then got a lot of support, unexpected actually, but then we drifted away to more complicated things and... well, another dead attempt. OK, maybe should try to get a job at the red cross, or an emergency room, I'm becoming a specialist in trying to revive this (mmh, but maybe they prefer guys who don't always fail at reviving) anyway, slightly frustrating here.

Ok. let's try it this way.

Those 2 issues above in my opinion are so obvious there really isn't much discussion needed. It needs to be corrected, let's talk about numbers. The new issues are much more complex, endless number crunching involved, takes time. Let's do "my" 2 things first, here now, immediately, somebody post a reminder this evening so Buhmann does it (but then on Saturdays the rules are different, pah) make a temporary solution if necessary, that WILL be adjusted if there are major changes on the other front, the one about money, points 4-10 etc. etc. Once the thing here is done, I'll join Ari and Buh in a nice fight about the rest, hoping to have it over done, (and forgotten probably) as fast as possible

Don't expect my proposals just to sail through of course, on the contrary, good to get other opinions, if he reads of course especially LCBs would be very welcome, all the others too, ok maybe not Buhmann, he just should do the work. Or ok ok, maybe he can have an opinion too...

MONEY:

2 proposals:

1.

wearing:
leader 10k
rest 5k

winner
leader as now obviously
rest 10k 5k 2k (per day for top 3)

2.

wearing
leader 20k
rest 10k

winning
leader as now still as obvious as before
rest 20k-10k-5k (top 3)



In a way think nr 1 really would be enough, but might be an overreaction because it has been overpaid so much for so long. For a cat 1 tour it's enough, sure, but since Buh for the moment at least doesn't want it according to cat. It's worth more in some races, GTs obviously, Andes coming up soon. so maybe nr 2 is better. Or something in between.

Put the grey (its grey at RSF!!!!) jersey in the same category as the 2 others, why not. It's not really worth less in the big races than the 2 others.. plus the 2 others get their money from stages and mountain prizes too, which the grey rider usually doesn't have. Not good, then separate it somehow, somebody propose something.


Points:

Wearing
leader: same as 5th place in the stage
rest: same as 20th place in a stage (and that's too much actually, should give nothing really...)


winning:
leader no need to change anything here
rest: same as 15th in GC.

Here, again, put grey with the others, maybe shouldn't in the end... after all there the grey wearer gets GC points already (usually) so he will get more points for basically the same thing. so in the end maybe the grey one should get less, don't know.


Ah, almost forgot the team classification again, same problem

wearing: now nothing, let's keep it like that.

winning:
money: regardless of riders that reach the end of the tour: 10k per day

Here: Kick the per rider stuff,
1, why should the team classification be worth less if we start with 7 riders? Lower category probably, yes, but if Buh wants it the same for all categories, then let's have it for all categories the same. Later on, we can try (good luck) to get all by category, then this too. But having it by riders that reach the finish doesn't really make a lot of sense.
2. Saving a rider if you are in the money ranks can become more important too important. Ok, still small change, but in a GT one rider if you win the classification is still 23k in the end. Why penalize the team that in the end finishes at 7 over the one that finishes at 9? Both won the team classification which only counts the top 3 per stage? Don't "force" rider saving in the last stages for more money. If somebody is kicked, ok, too bad, the penalty is one rider less, don't make it worse by taking away money too.

Then maybe no need to give money until nr 5..
Only 3 teams, then
10k-5k-2k per day.
If Buh wants 5
10k 6,5k 4k 2k 1k per day.

All NOT per rider. just like that.
Right now getting 22,5k for finishing fifth with 9 riders in a 5 day tour is too much. 0 or 5k, better.

Points:
Same as place nr 20 in the GC divided by riders who reach the goal. So all teams winning will get the same amount of points, fair, but only the ones that finish the tour get the points. Or give it to the ones that started too, after all maybe they often contribute to the win as well, attacking one day, dead and kicked the next. Or helped his GC leader, which then helped winning the team classification. Mmh, maybe divided by starting riders is better.

Anyway, here my proposals, hope for comments, counter proposals agreements, and a fast introduction of something along those lines. If possible before the start of... southland. Optimistic Ape as usual.

Then, would see no problem in adjusting it later if Buhmann somehow changes his mind on the categories for the money, or if the other issues bring some major (or minor) changes.

[Bear]

For sure, the money/points have to be changed. And I like Robys ideas. But I think that we have to care about the different categories. Otherwise I would not be satisfied with the new point/mones system. It's more than logical. I don't even know why Buh don't like that. We get more points the higher the category. But money is the same. Don't like that. Just do it like somebody already posted it here. Something like:

GTs 100% (100% as it is now or after the change)
Cat 4 tours 95%
Cat 3 tours 90%
Cat 2 tours 80%
Cat 1 tours 70%

... the same with one day races.

... or something similar.

Just make it according to the category. And make winning a jersey more important than wearing it for some days, and downgrade the climbers jersey. Than I might be fine with it.

[Robyklebt]

That's what I was trying to avoid again... discussion about the categories.. wääääää. I'm for categories too, but it's linked to the other issue, the complicated one, money and points revision... fairly logical that we can't have jersey money according to the category but other money not.. wäää.. so here now we get bogged down again because Buhmann will not be convinced in a few hours, or days probably, if ever. His argument, much less money in winter is not wrong either... so IMO we need something more complicated than just percentages. So by linking it again now you just killed my attempted fast track.. wäääääääääää.. please please, make another proposal for a fast track introduction, then as soon as it's done join the complicated cat-money discussion (or only money for winners if Buh really doesn't want it) and then if Buhmann there gets convinced let's adapt the jerseys to categories..

Just let's try to get this basically fairly easy thing past first, not going to forget the other part, but by doing it together it just take ages to get it done. 4 years in January. 4 years. Even without the linking with the complicated part it took almost 4 years for Buhmann to give the impression of actually considering adjusting that point/jersey thing. 4 years of regulary posting, whining, insulting, pleading.... Just pass it, anything really, Make it logical. This first, easy thing, easy to adjust again later!!!

Roby going to have a nervous break down now Hope they have internet access in clinics around here Might enjoy the first breakdown and want a second one!

[Bear]

I don't want to confuse Buh, just wanted to say that this is very important and that there are more managers who would like to change that. But maybe he shouldn't read it...

[Buhmann]

I think i have told a lot of times what the reason which the money according to the category is (great english...).
I like Roby ideas. What i maybe would add is, that stage winners earn more money. You want to cut money for wearing the leader jersey about 20.000 (proposal 2, which would i prefer at the moment). Let give the winner of a race 20.000 more than now.

[Robyklebt]

Stop, that's mostly Aris thing, let Ari talk about that. Can take time, so:

Do this first, nr 2, I'm for it, 2-0 in this thread.

Then wait for Ari to show up and discuss the more money for stage winners and the other things you want.

[Buhmann]

To finish the discussion for the first time: Shall we integrate Robys suggestion for the Andentour? (Only the wearing-jerseys stuff).

[Robyklebt]

YES

[Buhmann]

Do you like Robys suggestion? Okay, if there aren´t many teams who said this is complete bullshit, i try to integrate it until Andentour.

[Luna]

This is not complete bullshit. Please also change the specifications in the "Punktevergabe" menu.

And by the way don't forget to switch back to the normal time bonus system.

[Buhmann]

I have integrate the new point and money rules for wearing the jerseys.

Question: Can I the winner of stages and single-races 20.000 more than now? And maybe 20 points?

[Robyklebt]

From now on the fifth of november will be known as BUHMANN day!

EXCELLENT. WE LOVE BUHMANN BUHMANN IS THE GREATEST PROGRAMMER, GAMEMASTER, HUMAN BEING AND MAN OF ALL TIMES!!
I have an erection



Now let's talk about the rest.

1: Where is Ari. He is the guy who pushed for more money for 1 day races for a long time, he should at least be heard.
2: If I remember correctly one of Aris main complaints was always that in Tours you gain much more money than in one day races. Which IMO is partially true. It doesn't count for every team for every tour. Lots of money in Tours comes from:
a) wearing jerseys. That has been cut a bit, very good. While before wearing jerseys plus the prime at the end amounted to 209k per day now it's only 175 (if I calculated correctly). So 34k less per day. The cut all in the wearing jersey part, which is good,here the cut is 65k. But generally the cut per day is 34k.
b) lots of riders in average places. Like 5 riders in the top 20, but none in the top 5. Something like I for example had in Oman last winter, earned shitloads of money for not really being succesful.
More money in tours in my experience is true mostly in this scenario. Not in other tours, not if you start to win a tour very often. Then it's very very often no benefit at all. I suspect that Ari would like to change something here too, make tour-riding less of a potential money advantage over 1 day racing. Which I would support too actually.
3: +20k for the stage winner? No problem. One day races. No problem. From my side.
4: +20 points for winner? Ok, like this no. BUHMANNNNNNNNNNNN! points are according to category. So now you want to give a cat 1 winner a 20 points bonus, from 80 to 100, 25% and a monument winner a 2% bonus, from 1000 to 1020 Ok, ok, you probably meant it the right way. Would be 25%+ for all stages and one day races. MMh. My analysis says: Would actually be ok. Right now a cat 4 tour win gives probably more points than a monument. IMO should be the same roughly. But. 7 days cat 4 right now 810 points. Leader for 3 days let's say, that's 168 points. 1 stage win: 160. Another 2 fifth places 112: You are at: 440+810=1250. 1250vs1000. Difference too big probably. New would be 810+440+40 extra points that the stage win gives, 1290. Fits better. So mmh, didn't like the idea at first, but first preliminary number analysis says good idea. Will analyze some more though...And if LCB reads, he should comment too.
5: No changes in points, money for Tour winners please!
6: You mentioned general money cuts for Place 4-20 in tours, final GC. Don't like that either. In high categories IMO it fits ok right now. Even without those cuts often you make minus. Will spare you my theories about what would happen if you cut it, wrote them already a few times anyway.
7: Back to nr 2b sort of: Here a change in the lower places for money would be ok. That means, low category tours. THAT are the tours that make the difference between 1 day races and tours. Not the high category stuff. IN a high cat you simply usually won't be able to place 5 riders in the paces 5-15 of the final GC. Unless you have a superb team and ride like an idiot, or the participation is weak. Both usually doesn't happen in cat 4-5 tours. It's cat 1-2, sometimes 3 tours that are money tours by placing x riders. So... sorry Buh, but here a money scale by cat would make sense. Not for stages, not for one day races, for GC of Tours. Leave cat 5 like it is, even cat 4 maybe, or minor changes in both, but change it for cat 1-3. Something like I wrote in a post many posts ago. . Same money for the winner in all the tours, respectively depending on the days like you always wanted, but cut the rate per day for the lower places. I know I know, you're opposed to that generally, but why not here? For low cat tours, that are the tours that pay lots and lots of money even if you don't really have a succesful tour, but a cheap team.

[gaurain rx]

But double untrue announcement in the "news" box :

1. "But for winning the jersey in a tour, they will get more." Well, you don't get more if you win the yellow jersey
2. Sorry, no second point... I wrote it really bad

[Buhmann]

Was to complicated for me to write this better in english...

[gaurain rx]

Was to complicated for me to write this better in english...

yep, just a stupid comment anyway... things are quite clear... Had time to waste doing nothing

[auxilium torino]

Schreibe auf deutsch:
Die regel ist der dummste idee das konnte man sich vorstellen.
wer in gelb ist, wird nicht belohnt, sonder bestrafft.
warum sollte man in tempo für 20k und die paar punkte?wenn jemand in tempo für die 11 platz ist , wird lange geschimpft, und in moment ist gelb zu tragen so viel wert!
Mit die gewohneit und regel von RSF, ist die neue pramie system total falsch.Mann kann nicht aussreissen, nicht tuen, und sollte auch tempo!wofur? konnen unsere genie, das die regel studiert haben mir erklaeren?

[Rockstar Inc]

ein Grund, warum es mir gefällt: dass man sich net bei bescheuerten Kat 1 Fantasy-RF dumm und dämlich verdient, wenn während der realen Saison hochklassige Einzelrennen anstehen...

[Robyklebt]

Hat länger gedauert als erwartet! Jetzt kommen die Genies die alles besser wissen und beklagen sich!

[auxilium torino]

Hat länger gedauert als erwartet! Jetzt kommen die Genies die alles besser wissen und beklagen sich!

Hat gedauert die zeit es zu probieren!
Ich meine nicht das man reich damit werden muss, aber es muss sich lohnen in gelb zu sein.eine rotes trikot, oder grün bringen mitlerweiler mehr als gelb
Und eine zehnte platz auch...bist du sicher, ist das normal??

[Buhmann]

Currently i would say, too, that the money for wearing yellow is too few. Because we want that the leader work for his jersey, so that is at the moment a little bit counterproductive for the races.

[Robyklebt]

I

ch meine nicht das man reich damit werden muss, aber es muss sich lohnen in gelb zu sein.eine rotes trikot, oder grün bringen mitlerweiler mehr als gelb

Before it was 40k yellow vs 30k green/red
Now it's 20k vs 10k

So the sentence above IMO makes no sense. The contrary is true if anything.

Currently i would say, too, that the money for wearing yellow is too few. Because we want that the leader work for his jersey, so that is at the moment a little bit counterproductive for the races.

20k not enough? It's 20k more than if I don't have it. IMO is enough. You'll defend it for honour, points ( and yes, cat 3, 4 and 5 give MORE points now than before, cat 1 8 points less, cat 2 4 points less, the other three cats=more points) and, badabum 20k. Or if you feel tactically for you it's better not to defend it, you won't.