Aix and OL unrealistic arrangements

[Us Lecce]

Km: 1, Steigung: 0
Edgar Grospiron (Aixteam) attackiert
Julien Vican (OLcycle) geht mit
Lionel Gautherie (Aixteam) geht mit
Zelambo Cucharro (OLcycle) geht mit

I don't believe this is a coincidence, because both know each other very well and they wants me to stop tempo, first ol than aix and so on. After a sieb of aix, they ride together without saying anything ...


MFG Adler

[gaurain rx]

Km: 1, Steigung: 0
Edgar Grospiron (Aixteam) attackiert
Julien Vican (OLcycle) geht mit
Lionel Gautherie (Aixteam) geht mit
Zelambo Cucharro (OLcycle) geht mit

I don't believe this is a coincidence, because both know each other very well and they wants me to stop tempo, first ol than aix and so on. After a sieb of aix, they ride together without saying anything ...


MFG Adler

Mwouhahahaha

Really, really good joke... I was searching something funny to read... Thanks Adler/Lecce!

[gaurain rx]

And for Info, this was not "classified" as an arrangement

Km: 196, Dénivellé: 0
Ashok Kumar (Elbcoast Riders) attaque
Ethan Mars (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
James Brownham (Elbcoast Riders) attaque
Gary Moir (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Amrish Puri (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Martin Sprick (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Kabir Bedi (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Christian Bikon (Claw - CVIII) n´arrive pas à s´echapper avec
Steven Ireland (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Karl Portmann (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Georg Streitberger (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Phil McClaw (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Laurent Schimberg (Hoegaarden Team) s´echappe avec
Wesley Sneijder (Elbcoast Riders) n´arrive pas à s´echapper avec
Salim Malik (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Magnus Elstrup (simply) s´echappe avec
Jamal Malik (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec

[claw]

And for Info, this was not "classified" as an arrangement

Km: 196, Dénivellé: 0
Ashok Kumar (Elbcoast Riders) attaque
Ethan Mars (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
James Brownham (Elbcoast Riders) attaque
Gary Moir (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Amrish Puri (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Martin Sprick (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Kabir Bedi (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Christian Bikon (Claw - CVIII) n´arrive pas à s´echapper avec
Steven Ireland (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Karl Portmann (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Georg Streitberger (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Phil McClaw (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Laurent Schimberg (Hoegaarden Team) s´echappe avec
Wesley Sneijder (Elbcoast Riders) n´arrive pas à s´echapper avec
Salim Malik (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Magnus Elstrup (simply) s´echappe avec
Jamal Malik (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec

i wanted to say, that you gaurain are also fast in writing such charges
but then i saw you already wrote a second post..

[gaurain rx]

And for Info, this was not "classified" as an arrangement

Km: 196, Dénivellé: 0
Ashok Kumar (Elbcoast Riders) attaque
Ethan Mars (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
James Brownham (Elbcoast Riders) attaque
Gary Moir (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Amrish Puri (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Martin Sprick (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Kabir Bedi (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Christian Bikon (Claw - CVIII) n´arrive pas à s´echapper avec
Steven Ireland (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Karl Portmann (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Georg Streitberger (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Phil McClaw (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Laurent Schimberg (Hoegaarden Team) s´echappe avec
Wesley Sneijder (Elbcoast Riders) n´arrive pas à s´echapper avec
Salim Malik (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Magnus Elstrup (simply) s´echappe avec
Jamal Malik (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec

i wanted to say, that you gaurain are also fast in writing such charges
but then i saw you already wrote a second post..

Right, i do it once... But, I never said this was an arranged attack. I just said that there was a difference of "point of view" if it's 2 known teams who do this or 2 unknown teams!

Reread the whole thread and you can read this from me :

Message par gaurain rx Dim Juil 11, 2010 4:22 am : "Ah, sorry Claw. I maybe said what I think bad. I don't "attack" you and I don't think it's an arranged attack."

That was just to say it was ridiculous to try to proove it was an arranged attack!

[claw]

And for Info, this was not "classified" as an arrangement

Km: 196, Dénivellé: 0
Ashok Kumar (Elbcoast Riders) attaque
Ethan Mars (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
James Brownham (Elbcoast Riders) attaque
Gary Moir (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Amrish Puri (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Martin Sprick (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Kabir Bedi (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Christian Bikon (Claw - CVIII) n´arrive pas à s´echapper avec
Steven Ireland (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Karl Portmann (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Georg Streitberger (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Phil McClaw (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Laurent Schimberg (Hoegaarden Team) s´echappe avec
Wesley Sneijder (Elbcoast Riders) n´arrive pas à s´echapper avec
Salim Malik (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Magnus Elstrup (simply) s´echappe avec
Jamal Malik (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec

i wanted to say, that you gaurain are also fast in writing such charges
but then i saw you already wrote a second post..

Right, i do it once... But, I never said this was an arranged attack. I just said that there was a difference of "point of view" if it's 2 known teams who do this or 2 unknown teams!

Reread the whole thread and you can read this from me :

Message par gaurain rx Dim Juil 11, 2010 4:22 am : "Ah, sorry Claw. I maybe said what I think bad. I don't "attack" you and I don't think it's an arranged attack."

That was just to say it was ridiculous to try to proove it was an arranged attack!

i understand, and im not angry on you cause of that^^
and one thing to add: sure its a difference, if there are teams who rode with each other much times, or if its their first race together..

[gaurain rx]

And for Info, this was not "classified" as an arrangement

Km: 196, Dénivellé: 0
Ashok Kumar (Elbcoast Riders) attaque
Ethan Mars (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
James Brownham (Elbcoast Riders) attaque
Gary Moir (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Amrish Puri (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Martin Sprick (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Kabir Bedi (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Christian Bikon (Claw - CVIII) n´arrive pas à s´echapper avec
Steven Ireland (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Karl Portmann (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Georg Streitberger (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Phil McClaw (Claw - CVIII) s´echappe avec
Laurent Schimberg (Hoegaarden Team) s´echappe avec
Wesley Sneijder (Elbcoast Riders) n´arrive pas à s´echapper avec
Salim Malik (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec
Magnus Elstrup (simply) s´echappe avec
Jamal Malik (Elbcoast Riders) s´echappe avec

i wanted to say, that you gaurain are also fast in writing such charges
but then i saw you already wrote a second post..

Right, i do it once... But, I never said this was an arranged attack. I just said that there was a difference of "point of view" if it's 2 known teams who do this or 2 unknown teams!

Reread the whole thread and you can read this from me :

Message par gaurain rx Dim Juil 11, 2010 4:22 am : "Ah, sorry Claw. I maybe said what I think bad. I don't "attack" you and I don't think it's an arranged attack."

That was just to say it was ridiculous to try to proove it was an arranged attack!

i understand, and im not angry on you cause of that^^
and one thing to add: sure its a difference, if there are teams who rode with each other much times, or if its their first race together..

Cool... I like to ride with the Claw riders (and the manager too) I don't want to be in a bad mood with them!

Anyway, problem is that is sometimes a question of feeling... and with "feeling", hard to make it the same for everybody!

[Us Lecce]

Ovious it is an arrangement, but i don't know what happened before, do they talk in the chat about this and so on.

So this is an other situation, you cannot say, if this wasn't an arrangement, the other isn't an arrangement too.

And SPAM isn't the right thing in a fairplay forum !

[gaurain rx]

And I don't really understand Adler's behaviour here... Saying nothing about that during the race and afterwards complaining! Maybe it would have been easier to make it clear when it happens (during the race).

[Us Lecce]

1. I wasn't there all the time, i recognize it at km 50 or something like that. Thought Aix attacks with two riders ...
2. What should i say, they don't do a teamattack, and they wouldn't react like this: "oh yes, sry, we don't know it", and let them fall back.
3. They have enough experience and know that this is forbidden!
4. And iam not the one, who break the rules !

[Robyklebt]

Ok first: I'm the ape.

Second: Adler should get his own account here.

Third: Adler is in the fairness committee. I think he will bring it up in the committee and write his opinion there. HE makes the charge, he shouldn't have a say in the result of the inquiry. Actually he shouldn't even open the discussion in the fairness committee, open a thread here, if he thinks they deserve a punishment make his case here publicly. Without adding anything in the closed fairnesscommittee session.

Fourth: Buh should throw Adler out of the fairness committee. Don't trust him, pretty sure he already posted his thing in the fairness committee. Which he shouldn't when he makes the charge and was directly involved.

Fifth: Aix and/or OL should answer here. Was it arranged? Grospiron 52-78-48---Vican 54-79-49--Gautherie 59-83-63--Zelambo 69-79-47. Moutain-Flat-Sprint. Possible that it was, but if I did an arrangement with anybody I would look that it's a bit more equal... Anyway, up to them to say if it was arranged (which is NOT illegal, but highly uncool)

Sixth:Is it unrealistic? That's what's forbidden, unrealistic arrangements. Not arrangements.

Seventh: If this, then that, if that then this, is not an argument, it's being lazy.

Eight:

unrealistic arrangements are not allowed
- every team must do the best for his team . Separation of private and RSF is required.

These are the 2 rules that OL/Aix could possibly have broken. Which one and why.

[Us Lecce]

ah, there is the *wäh* of roby

1. you are roby
2. this forum isn't better than the old and here isn't anything interesting, only the fairplay area, but here is only spam like everywhere
3. i bring it here and in the fairplay tab, but i don't chose a penalty !
4. there is the *wäh*, poor roby
5. you are right, they should answer not gaurain or roby !
6. if it is obvious, it is forbidden !
7. why i talk with roby, this sentences in 7 is senceless !
8. maybe both, for me only the arrangements

[gaurain rx]

8. maybe both, for me only the arrangements

Didn't know we should follow your rules! Or you forget the "unrealistic".

And if you don't want anybody answers, then, don't post it in the Forum, send a Pn or thing like that!

[Robyklebt]

6. if it is obvious, it is forbidden !

You see, that's why you shouldn't be in the fairness committee. If it's obvious, it's forbidden. Completely wrong.

It doesn't matter if it's obvious or not. But fits the fairness understanding I've come to expect from you. If it's forbidden but not obvious, then ok, if it's forbidden and obvioius not ok.

But the main point here still is:

unrealistic arrangements are not allowed

It doesn't say "ARRANGEMENTS are not allowed"
It says "UNREALISTIC ARRANGEMENTS are not allowed"

Question 1 remains: Was it an arrangement.
If they say YES: then question 2 comes into play. Why was it unrealistic. So... why was it unrealistic?

[gaurain rx]

Héhé, if all the arrangements are punished/forbidden, 2 sprintteams can't work together anymore

[el Galactico]

So it's okay to have an arrangement by ICQ or whatever? Cool! I thought that i heard,that this is not okay.

I dont say that it was an arrangement or so, it's not interesting for me. And it doesn't play a role. We will never find out if there was one.

[gaurain rx]

So it's okay to have an arrangement by ICQ or whatever? Cool! I thought that i heard,that this is not okay.

I dont say that it was an arrangement or so, it's not interesting for me. And it doesn't play a role. We will never find out if there was one.

Well, I thought too that it was not allowed.

[olmania]

Message de Adler(Fairplay Comitee), 25.09.2010
Hallo.
Votre équipe s´est trouvée (négativement) en défaut avec les règles de fairplay. Vous pouvez défendre votre position sur le Forum si vous le désirez:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=872

Ok
A message from Adler ? Or all the comitee ?
Adler is authorised to send me a message like that in the name of the comitee when his team is directly concerned ?
(dont be affraid, that's not an attack , insults of stuff like, that ! Just 3 innocent questions !)



Then,
My official answer is
"Aix said me on msn that he will go in front, so I took these wheels, almost all the aix'wheels ! I think he took mines too !"

And, if that was a real arrangement, nothing forbidden ! Only "not cool".
And :

Aix and/or OL should answer here. Was it arranged? Grospiron 52-78-48---Vican 54-79-49--Gautherie 59-83-63--Zelambo 69-79-47. Moutain-Flat-Sprint. Possible that it was, but if I did an arrangement with anybody I would look that it's a bit more equal... Anyway, up to them to say if it was arranged (which is NOT illegal, but highly uncool)

Right and right !

every team must do the best for his team . Separation of private and RSF is required.

Aix rides for me ? I ride for aix ?
We did a good and normal escape, like thousands of escapes in RSF !
We did our best for all the group with our 2helpers to do tempo, everything was normal.
And I don't know Aix, that's not my neighbour, my brother in low or my little sister !

3. They have enough experience and know that this is forbidden!

About the experienced teams and their actions. Your favo was clearly Enke today, but you took 2 classic guys with 67 ans 74 sprint to parasit the group in front, without a team for them ... That's not forbidden, just uncool (more from the N°1 of RSF) ...


So, we've done nothing forbidden (something that Adler doesn't like at the maximum).
It happens, so what ? You can believe that's unrealistic, you can believe it is realistic. Who cares ?

Remember me why this topic is here ?


ps : My speech was not "Adler bad looser blablabla ..." but I could, because there are reasons to believe that ...

[Bear]

To prevent this situation you could have attack with all four riders. The lack of power is not that big with a green attack. So I don't understand why you did this.

[el Galactico]

So this is now a discussion if arrangements by ICQ/MSN are unrealistic or only uncool.

[gaurain rx]

So this is now a discussion if arrangements by ICQ/MSN are unrealistic or only uncool.

1. Well, I don't think we can really speaks of an arragement. Aix gives an info to Ol'... But Ol' never said : " ah, ok, so I take your wheel with X, take my wheel with Y so that can Z follow too".

2. Why wouldn't it be "realistic". I think, in real cycling wrold, some managers/riders talks privately to others and do some agreements. But maybe "realistic" refers to what is real for rsf!?

[Luna]

Who cares about the few clearly stated fairness rules when it comes to the question if an action was fair or not? At the moment i am too lazy to look for the preamble of the rules in english and frensh languages. But in the german text it reads that the rules only imply some concrete cases. But that also other incidents could be punished.

Fairness and RSF Fairness Rules are two different terms. The fairness committee in representation of the whole community watches over the Fairness, but not exclusively the RSF Fairness Rules.

It's not explicitly written down that it's not allowed to share thoughts and plans over the actual race with an other team of the same race via any other communiaction system outside the race chat. But as several users have written here, it's "uncool", not to say unfair. And unfair behaviour is not allowed.

It's also not written down that you must not insult other users, but it's even though not allowed and you might get punished if you do so.

There's been a case where someone wrote into the RSF main chat, inviting other managers in his race to take his wheel as he planned to attack. As far as i know that also was considered as unfair by the community (or the committee or whoever) although that was not written down explicitly in the RSF Fairness Rules.

[gaurain rx]

I just do an Off Topic :

Is there a list of all the "events" reported to the Comittee and all the decision took by him?

[NoPikouze]

I thought msn/icq arrangements were "tolerated" since it's impossible to prove anything...

[claw]

I thought msn/icq arrangements were "tolerated" since it's impossible to prove anything...

its cheating, but whatever it seems...