Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

[Gipfelstuermer]

no need to let them keep their riders while keeping 20M aswell

We are talking 20M total capital. Not 20M cash.

why shouldnt they drop below 20M?

The argument is, that the teams are not responsible for admins doing nothing back then. If the admins had acted back then, those teams would have been able to re-start with 20M at some point in the meantime.

The counterargument would be, that they are responsible for bugusing with all the consequences, including the non-decision of the admins back then and the long time it takes to resolve the bug.

[ProTour-Team]

most of us are aware that the action should have happened years ago. but not sure i can see an argument for a lower fine in them being able to keep their money longer. we can be very happy that they kept being inactive for most of the time or at least didnt maximize their advantage. curious to know if other fpc guys think thats an argument for lowering the fine aswell^^

[Gipfelstuermer]

It's like the difference between a limited company (Germany: AG or GmbH) and an unlimited company (Germany: KG or GbR).

If a limited company goes bankrupt, the owners do not have to pay with their private wealth. So for a limited company, it makes no sense to give them a fine which exceeds their assets because the owners dont have to pay that and instead they can just found a new company (like resetting or creating a new team). Once a limited company went bankrupt, you can no longer make additional claims to the company.

If an unlimited company goes bankrupt, the owners are liable with their private wealth. So there it makes sense to give them a fine that exceeds their assets. But even in that case, owners can file for private insolvency at some point in time (time horizon is different from country to country but in Germany they lowered it from 6 years to 3 years) and then they don't have to pay back everything.

So, are our cycling teams limited or unlimited companies ? I think the fact that we allow Resets in general is a hint, but as it's mostly undefined, I could agree to the higher amount (From 2 years ago) knowing that will simply make them reset to 20M and I could also agree to the lower amount (calculated above) knowing that simulates the 20M as well, for whichever there will be a majority in FPC.

[Hansa]

most of us are aware that the action should have happened years ago. but not sure i can see an argument for a lower fine in them being able to keep their money longer. we can be very happy that they kept being inactive for most of the time or at least didnt maximize their advantage. curious to know if other fpc guys think thats an argument for lowering the fine aswell^^

the thing is there is no reason to take more money out then to bring them to 20M total capital. because they simply can reset and restart with 20M capital.

same counts for idefix if luques had taken out the money back then idefix would have been way below 20M capital at his restart and could have simply reset to start with 20M like it is now he restartet still below 20M capital so even less then he would have had for a reset.

[Schartner Bombe]

most of us are aware that the action should have happened years ago. but not sure i can see an argument for a lower fine in them being able to keep their money longer. we can be very happy that they kept being inactive for most of the time or at least didnt maximize their advantage. curious to know if other fpc guys think thats an argument for lowering the fine aswell^^

the thing is there is no reason to take more money out then to bring them to 20M total capital. because they simply can reset and restart with 20M capital.

same counts for idefix if luques had taken out the money back then idefix would have been way below 20M capital at his restart and could have simply reset to start with 20M like it is now he restartet still below 20M capital so even less then he would have had for a reset.

Funny view of fair play - that is, bank robber rob 20 million or more - then buys shares with the money - because they are so bad he loses the money and has less than 20 million. Doesn't matter, the bank says throw away the shares and buy new ones - we'll give you another 20 million

[Gipfelstuermer]

we'll give you another 20 million

Isn't that simply how the game works?

Unless we want to disable the Reset? (Which can be discussed but then teams can just create a new team...)

[Hansa]

And the next thing is, currently the FPC doesnt act to punish these people, the punishmetn of 100K was already done back then.

Currently the FPC works on how to take away the advantage they still have with the bug using.

For ide there is simply no advantage of the bug using left that we can take away now.

[Schartner Bombe]

we'll give you another 20 million

Isn't that simply how the game works?

Unless we want to disable the Reset? (Which can be discussed but then teams can just create a new team...)

Then don't really know anymore why we need an FPC? The FPC is looking for evidence like the prosecution, which I don't think is their job. The FPC should create fair conditions, such as a soccer referee (very unfair sport compared to ice hockey). The football referee is there to create fair conditions. He does it e.g. like this: In the hz he realizes he has given an unjustified penalty for team A. So he knows that at the next opportunity, e.g. a disputed foul on the edge of the penalty area by A, he is more likely to give a penalty for B to establish fairness. It should be a matter of consideration and not just evidence.

The problem with FPC is that there are no clear rules and the FPC members do not know whether they are lawyers or referees.

You also have to consider how many players leave the RSF because of a lack of fairness. It looks like you care more about the unfair teams to keep them going.

[Hansa]

The FPC should create fair conditions, such as a soccer referee (very unfair sport compared to ice hockey). The football referee is there to create fair conditions.

Yes and thats exactly what we plan on doing know creating fair condition with taking out all illegal money.

But for idefix there is 0 of that illegal money left because his total Value was when he restarted below the 20M he would have had if he had resettet for his restart.

There simply is no money left to create fair conditions again. if we now take the money (that isnt there anymore) we force him to restart a 2nd time and this time with even more money (20M) then he restartet at the start of the year.

How exactly would that make the conditions more fair?

And just to get that right, a soccer reffere is not supposed to make his decision according to early (maybe wrong decision) a soccer reffere always should act by the law of the game in any situation. there is no giving a payback penalty in the soccer rules and thats also nothin refferes are supposed to do.

[Schartner Bombe]

The FPC should create fair conditions, such as a soccer referee (very unfair sport compared to ice hockey). The football referee is there to create fair conditions.

Yes and thats exactly what we plan on doing know creating fair condition with taking out all illegal money.

But for idefix there is 0 of that illegal money left because his total Value was when he restarted below the 20M he would have had if he had resettet for his restart.

There simply is no money left to create fair conditions again. if we now take the money (that isnt there anymore) we force him to restart a 2nd time and this time with even more money (20M) then he restartet at the start of the year.

How exactly would that make the conditions more fair?

And just to get that right, a soccer reffere is not supposed to make his decision according to early (maybe wrong decision) a soccer reffere always should act by the law of the game in any situation. there is no giving a payback penalty in the soccer rules and thats also nothin refferes are supposed to do.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you're doing this, but ok, if you don't understand me, then two questions that are easy to answer ... what is your point 1 or 2?:

1 the fpc is there because of justice?
2 the fpc is there because of fairness?

[Gipfelstuermer]

FPC has decided to deduct, and deducted, the following amounts to ensure that all 4 teams either payed back all their bugusing profit or went down to 20M capital (the value which new teams can start with or reset to).

OLCycle 8,457,263 (now 20M capital)
Flolandria 3,476,632 (all profit deducted)
fantasticos 276,270 (all profit deducted)
Idefix / AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR) 0 (was down to 18.9M total capital in Dec-2022)

Case is now closed.