Whitianga Cycling Day 17h

[ProTour-Team]

Well the pave bug got abused by pretty much all teams here, Liquigas in the end managed to win the race with a guy he got back with the bug.

for reference, last year 3 teams were fined 700k for that and i got a ban for at least 2weeks.

PENALTY SUBMITTED: FINE OF700000, WARNING: YES
for free team, los chicos and fantasticos
All three are also temporary banned.

so please FPK, work your magic

[Hunsrueck]

fpc is reviewing this case

[Robyklebt]

Let's not ignore the differences between the cases last year at Monte Paschi and here.

Yap i tried to use the bug at that last downhill pave section..

That's the thread opener here. Unlike anything that happened yesterday at 17h (and yes, I looked at the replay) he actively used the bug to win. He put his riders in position for the bug, the bug was a part of his tactic to win. He's been trying to find an equivalency between that and what happens in most other cases since then. Cases like yesterday, where the bug happens unplanned. Then the reaction isn't perfect and either some teams have helpers they shouldn't have or like in this case win with a bugged rider.
Not the same thing at all.

[ProTour-Team]

I am really glad that you even know that Liqui or Idefix didnt plan their actions. And after saying you watched the replay you dont have anything to add to the race or chat besides that? Well again, doesnt surprise me at all

[Hunsrueck]

Well the pave bug got abused by pretty much all teams here, Liquigas in the end managed to win the race with a guy he got back with the bug.

for reference, last year 3 teams were fined 700k for that and i got a ban for at least 2weeks.

PENALTY SUBMITTED: FINE OF700000, WARNING: YES
for free team, los chicos and fantasticos
All three are also temporary banned.

so please FPK, work your magic

Who used the bug? only Liqui? we need more informations.

[Mangahn]

Only Idefix (withouth success) and Liqui (with success).

At chat noone ask

scheiss drauf. Im Chat hat niemand dannach gefragt, ob die Bugfahrer fallen gelassen werden. Also, anders als in den anderen Feldern. Niemand hat erklärt, dass bugusing schlecht ist. Niemand hat Idefix darauf hingewiesen, dass er einen entsprechenden Fahrer nutzt.

Allerdings unterstelle ich aus Sicht des Zuschauerchats, dass es beiden bewusst war.

Idefix machte zuerst mit seinem Tempo. Luqui lutschte, wie immer. Und gewann dann recht locker in einer später gebildeten neuen Gruppe mit 2 von seinem und einem Bergfahrer. (Verkürzte Version, natürlich).

[Robyklebt]

Well, good old free, what do you want me to write details, when you don't give any either. You claim "pretty much everybody" abused the bug...

And Manghi is wrong too.
Liquigas actually did mention that they should drop or wait. It was Idefix that continued, without acknowledging Liquigas proposal. And free is right about the fact the "pretty much everybody." Liquigas won it, Idéf. the one that kept riding, but Armorique got a rider there thanks to the bug too. And that I don't remember, but guess other teams as well.

And from the replay it certainly didn't look anything like the actions in STrade Bianche last year, when 3 teams had active bugusing with the clear intent to get an advantage. Here it looked like: Bug happened, oh ok... let's ride

[Mangahn]

Und Du hast ihm geglaubt? Er hat das gesagt um weiter lutschen zu können.

[ProTour-Team]

So when your started your investigation yesterday you didnt think about that involving either watching the replay or reading the chat, let alone at least saving it? bof.. while that indeed sounds like a usual fpk review it is still oof

Idéfix: so don't talk to me if you want to talk to him, and don't hide behind your cowardness :p
Idéfix: but I failed :p
Idéfix: I only tried to avoid your win with no balls in the first 70% of race^^
Liquigas-CND: sorry armorique did
Idéfix: I said nothing about exploiting or not the bug
Liquigas-CND: thats why leblanc and le bihan were in front...
Liquigas-CND: well you exploited the bug when you rode in the front group idefix...
Team Armorique: yes good exploitation o f the bug
Idéfix: gw liqui

so yeah like mangahn already said, ide tried his best to abuse the bug and making liqui lose. but he failed and in the end liqui managed to win with a rider that was still ahead because of the bug.
no team even had the intention to let any rider drop but i cant remember/didnt pay attention if the other teams abused the bug willingly aswell.

[ProTour-Team]

if you wanna keep writing bullshit please remain doing so everywhere else but not here, donkey. obviously ide and liqui willingly abused the bug and maybe they even brought their riders back ahead intentionally

[Robyklebt]

So did you save the whole chat? Then posting it here would help.

As for writing BS, it's you that writes it. No, there was no "obviously" anywhere.

[Gipfelstuermer]

fpc is reviewing this case

Involved teams: Liquigas CND, Idefix and Team Armorique.

Given a variety of old cases of bug using with a variety of results, please let me highlight:
1.) We have a new FPC member. It's me
2.) We consider many different factors for our judgement of the case, e.g. the type of bad sportsmanship, how often a team has violated fairplay rules, the impact of the behavior, how experienced the manager is, how well a case is documented and other factors.

[Robyklebt]

Just to highlight the unfairness, feeding of false information of one of the commentators here.

Im Chat hat niemand dannach gefragt, ob die Bugfahrer fallen gelassen werden.

Nobody asked, questioned if the "bugriders" should fall back

After I said that Liquigas actually did.

Und Du hast ihm geglaubt? Er hat das gesagt um weiter lutschen zu können.

And you believed him? He only said that to be able to continue to suck.

So, here our esteemed commentator implicitly admits that Liquigas actually did say that. But dismisses as tactic.

Stuff like this is actually the biggest problem in the fairness section. A lack of clarity in the reports, and like here, false reports. Because that's what this was. There is a big difference between nobody and Liquigas (mmh, now that I wrote it down... maybe it's the same?) Write "Liquigas did, but it didn't sound believable" if you want, but to simply change the facts... not good, not fair. But expected of you. It only hurts the game to try to feed false information to the fpc.

With the amount of evidence presented here so far, I'd dismiss the case. Mostly because of the untruth(s) posted here.
But since the accused 6, down to 3 teams (why? are we sure the 3 other teams didn't get riders into that group either?, I don't remember, so not sure) haven't deemed it necessary to comment, I'd reopen the case and fine them

[Mangahn]

. Im Chat hat niemand dannach gefragt, ob die Bugfahrer fallen gelassen werden. Also, anders als in den anderen Feldern. Niemand hat erklärt, dass bugusing schlecht ist. Niemand hat Idefix darauf hingewiesen, dass er einen entsprechenden Fahrer nutzt.

Ich bleibe bei der Aussage.
Die Aussage in einem Fairplay - Bereich will doch offensichtlich sagen, dass das Bugusing im Feld als nicht problematisch angesehen wurde. Ich wollte demnach auch hier die Strafe nicht so hoch ausfallen lassen.

Wenn CND als jemand, der vom Bug profitiert, den Bug anspricht und dann nicht fallen lässt, ändert das natürlich die Sachlage.
Es ändert aber nichts an meiner Aussage, dass keine Aufforderung von den nicht bugusern kam, kein Hinweis, dass Bugusing schlecht ist.

CND und Idefix mögen es somit als unproblematisch empfunden haben. Und dieses fehlende Unrechtsbewusstsein hatte dann sogar seinen Grund - im Schweigen des Feldes.

Wenn wir hingegen davon ausgehen, dass CND die Problematik bewusst war und er bewusst gefahren ist, obwohl er (von sich selbst) aufgefordert wurde,den Fahrer fallen zu lassen, dann ist sicher eine Strafe in Höhe von PTT zu fordern bzw. zu gewähren.

Bewerten darf den Sachverhalt dann gern das FPC.

[team fl]

. Im Chat hat niemand dannach gefragt, ob die Bugfahrer fallen gelassen werden. Also, anders als in den anderen Feldern. Niemand hat erklärt, dass bugusing schlecht ist. Niemand hat Idefix darauf hingewiesen, dass er einen entsprechenden Fahrer nutzt.

Ich bleibe bei der Aussage.
Die Aussage in einem Fairplay - Bereich will doch offensichtlich sagen, dass das Bugusing im Feld als nicht problematisch angesehen wurde. Ich wollte demnach auch hier die Strafe nicht so hoch ausfallen lassen.

Wenn CND als jemand, der vom Bug profitiert, den Bug anspricht und dann nicht fallen lässt, ändert das natürlich die Sachlage.
Es ändert aber nichts an meiner Aussage, dass keine Aufforderung von den nicht bugusern kam, kein Hinweis, dass Bugusing schlecht ist.

CND und Idefix mögen es somit als unproblematisch empfunden haben. Und dieses fehlende Unrechtsbewusstsein hatte dann sogar seinen Grund - im Schweigen des Feldes.

Dummheit schützt vor Strafe nicht, heisst es so schön. Evtl. kann das Einfluss auf das Strafmass haben. Aber nur weil das Feld schweigt, heisst das nicht, dass sich Liquigas-CND, Idéfix und andere nicht dessen bewusst waren.

Wenn wir hingegen davon ausgehen, dass CND die Problematik bewusst war und er bewusst gefahren ist, obwohl er (von sich selbst) aufgefordert wurde,den Fahrer fallen zu lassen, dann ist sicher eine Strafe in Höhe von PTT zu fordern bzw. zu gewähren.

Da bin ich anderer Meinung. Vorsatz vs. Fahrlässigkeit bzw. bewusste Fahrlässigkeit sind hier die Stichwörter. Der Smiley hunter dem Absatz impliziert aber Ironie, so dass die Meinung wohl ähnlich ist.

Bewerten darf den Sachverhalt dann gern das FPC.

Na no na ned, wie der Österreicher sagen würde. Aber sehr gnädig.


For the non German speakers: blabliblablubb...PTT, dumdidum Liquigas-CND, Idéfix, et al. Wilful negligence vs. Intent. FPC assemble!

[Liquigas-CND]

Hi all,

Just noticed the thread and I would like to write couple of words about the situation from that race:

When I realized the bug I asked Idefix and Armorique to wait for peloton / to drop the 3 riders that were in front due to the bug:
Stijn Timmermans (Liquigas-CND)
Titouan LeBihan (Team Armorique)
Juste Leblanc (Idéfix)

I made some tempo in the peloton to catch the front group but Idefix rode with his puller which I dont know if it was in front due to the bug or not... don't remember.
Since neither Idefix nor Armorique responded to my proposal I chose to wait then attacked later with one more rider from peloton who dropped Le Bihan and Le Blanc and this way won with Stijn who also made some tempo.
Lubazin and Tourmalet were offline most of the race as far as I remember.

Hopefully FPC will consider all the factors and the entire situation of this race which is not similar at all with what Free Team did in Strade Bianche.

Free team said after Strade Bianche " Yap i tried to use the bug at that last downhill pave section.." -
If you remember he even dropped 3 riders on purpose to use the bug therefore his action was premeditated.

We had no intention to have riders in front using the BUG it simply happend therefore I see no premeditation in our actions.

I agree we (Liquigas-CND, Armorique and Idefix) somehow used the BUG by keeping the riders mentioned above in front and this is the reason why I admit my fault and wait for the penalty.

Thanks and Regards,
Liquigas-CND

[ProTour-Team]

so even roby can read here that they were just fine with abusing the bug?

[Robyklebt]

Where did I say anything else? Well, abused, I'm actually still a bit lost on your usage of "abused".
In fact Liquigas said exactly what I have been saying here (I'm a bit worried about that actually... now I agree on things with that guy?)

I complained about your faulty and in the end unfair attempt to make it equivalent to what you and 2 others did in Strade Bianche 2018.
Even you can read here that Liquigas rejects that equivalency.

[ProTour-Team]

so please use another case as reference.

[chartreusecycle]

Clearly free team PTT try to abuse the FPK by using wrong comparison in order to impact other team.
This behaviour is not acceptable.

[ProTour-Team]

so please use another case as reference.

[Hunsrueck]

PENALTY SUBMITTED: FINE OF110000, WARNING: YES for Liquigas-CND
PENALTY SUBMITTED: FINE OF50000, WARNING: YES for Team Idefix

[ProTour-Team]

you got some reasoning, but with all your text you are saying i shouldnt be influencial?

but bigger question: how is it possible that the fpk forgot to give you an ingame notification so you could reply here earlier and tell us how the other teams handled the situation and therefore deserved a fine aswell. but talking about the fpk, surely nothing could surprise me anymore...

[team fl]

but 1 thing: how is it possible that the fpk forget to inform you ingame about that topic to get an answer from you earier?

And now my reaction to this quote:

That's a good question. But then again: Did he or did he not? Because I don't read anything about that explicitly in his post. And it's pretty easy to overlook ingame messages as they are not shown very prominently... But clarification by the FPC would be nice .

[ProTour-Team]

Fl abusing his forumpowers.. what kind of fine is in store for that?