Talent system for riders

[Radomiak]

The idea is simple and similar to many other manager games, which I very like of course.

Every rider has a talent which affect his training, its generated randomly and it's visible to everyone. There are 5 level of talents.

Option 1(old version):

How which level affect training:
1 level(the worst, the lowest talent) = every training(by every training i mean every training which you can set up) -0.8%
2 level = every training -0.6%
3 level = every training -0.4%
4 level = every training -0.2%
5 level(the best) = every training stay like it is now

Example:
If rider at the moment train with 7 trainings on one specific type of skill and have a chance to improve it 78%.
After adding talent level he has:
1lvl - 78% - 7 * (-0.8%) =~ 72%
2lvl - 78% - 7 * (-0.6%) =~ 73%
3lvl - 78% - 7 * (-0.4%) =~ 75%
4lvl - 78% - 7 * (-0.2%) =~ 76%
5lvl - 78% - 7 * (-0.0%) =~ 78%

I make a math very simple there, but correct should be like this
At the moment rider have 140% to get skill point if training for one skill
140% / 7 = 20%
so one training give you 20% atm
1lvl star will be then:
20-(-0.8%) + 20-(-0.8%) + 20-(-0.8%) + 20-(-0.8%) + 20-(-0.8%) + 20-(-0.8%) + 20-(-0.8%) = 134.4%

ALSO if your 1 training have chance lower than your talent affect, it will not downgrade you. In other words if your chance for single training is lower than talent affect it will not be minus training example:
1training chance give you 0.6% chance to improve but your riders talent is 1, so it basically it should be like this 0.6%-0.8%=-0.2% But it will not, then training shouldn't change, it should stay like it's now, means 0.6% . it's a tweak for much older riders. 2nd option is to make it 0% chance to improve, thing to discuss.

Oldest and the worst verion, cos of problem with older riders.

Option 2(light version):

How which level affect training:
1 level(the worst, the lowest talent) = every training(by every training i mean every training which you can set up) = 92% of your training value
2 level = 94% of your training value
3 level = 96% of your training value
4 level = 98% of your training value
5 level(the best) = every training stay like it is now

Example:
If rider at the moment train with 7 trainings on one specific type of skill and have a chance to improve it 78%.
After adding talent level he has:
1lvl - 11.1%*0.92 + 11.1%*0.92 + 11.1%*0.92 + 11.1%*0.92 + 11.1%*0.92 + 11.1%*0.92 + 11.1%*0.92 = ~71.6%
2lvl - 11.1%*0.94 + 11.1%*0.94 + 11.1%*0.94 + 11.1%*0.94 + 11.1%*0.94 + 11.1%*0.94 + 11.1%*0.94 = ~73.32%
3lvl - 11.1%*0.96 + 11.1%*0.96 + 11.1%*0.96 + 11.1%*0.96 + 11.1%*0.96 + 11.1%*0.96 + 11.1%*0.96 = ~74.88%
4lvl - 11.1%*0.98 + 11.1%*0.98 + 11.1%*0.98 + 11.1%*0.98 + 11.1%*0.98 + 11.1%*0.98 + 11.1%*0.98 = ~76.44%
5lvl - = 78%

If rider at the moment train with 7 trainings on one specific type of skill and have a chance to improve it 140%.
After adding talent level he has:
1lvl - 20%*0.92 + 20%*0.92 + 20%*0.92 + 20%*0.92 + 20%*0.92 + 20%*0.92 + 20%*0.92= ~128,8%
2lvl - 20%*0.94 + 20%*0.94 + 20%*0.94 + 20%*0.94 + 20%*0.94 + 20%*0.94 + 20%*0.94 = ~131.6%
3lvl - 20%*0.96 + 20%*0.96 + 20%*0.96 + 20%*0.96 + 20%*0.96 + 20%*0.96 + 20%*0.96 = ~134.4%
4lvl - 20%*0.98 + 20%*0.98 + 20%*0.98 + 20%*0.98 + 20%*0.98 + 20%*0.98 + 20%*0.98 = ~137.2%
5lvl - = 140%

If rider at the moment train with 7 trainings on one specific type of skill and have a chance to improve it 21%.
After adding talent level he has:
1lvl - 3%*0.92 + 3%*0.92 + 3%*0.92 + 3%*0.92 + 3%*0.92 + 3%*0.92 + 3%*0.92= ~19.32%
2lvl - 3%*0.94 + 3%*0.94 + 3%*0.94 + 3%*0.94 + 3%*0.94 + 3%*0.94 + 3%*0.94 = ~19.74%
3lvl - 3%*0.96 + 3%*0.96 + 3%*0.96 + 3%*0.96 + 3%*0.96 + 3%*0.96 + 3%*0.96 = ~20.16%
4lvl - 3%*0.98 + 3%*0.98 + 3%*0.98 + 3%*0.98 + 3%*0.98 + 3%*0.98 + 3%*0.98 = ~20.58%
5lvl - = 21%

Small impact on game, but well balanced levels.

Option 3(hard version):

How which level affect training:
1 level(the worst, the lowest talent) = every training(by every training i mean every training which you can set up) = 84% of your training value
2 level = 88% of your training value
3 level = 92% of your training value
4 level = 96% of your training value
5 level(the best) = every training stay like it is now

Example:
If rider at the moment train with 7 trainings on one specific type of skill and have a chance to improve it 78%.
After adding talent level he has:
1lvl - 78%/7 *0.84*7 = ~65.52%
2lvl - 78%/7 *0.88*7 = ~68.64%
3lvl - 78%/7 *0.92*7 = ~71.76%
4lvl - 78%/7 *0.96*7 = ~74.88%
5lvl - = 78%

If rider at the moment train with 7 trainings on one specific type of skill and have a chance to improve it 140%.
After adding talent level he has:
1lvl - 140%/7 *0.84*7 = ~117.6%
2lvl - 140%/7 *0.88*7 = ~123.2%
3lvl - 140%/7 *0.92*7 = ~128.8%
4lvl - 140%/7 *0.96*7 = ~134.4%
5lvl - = 140%

If rider at the moment train with 7 trainings on one specific type of skill and have a chance to improve it 21%.
After adding talent level he has:
1lvl - 21%/7 *0.84*7 = ~17.64%
2lvl - 21%/7 *0.88*7 = ~18.48%
3lvl - 21%/7 *0.92*7 = ~19.32%
4lvl - 21%/7 *0.96*7 = ~20.6%
5lvl - = 21%

Big impact on game, but the difference between each level is too huge in my opinion.

Option 4(more levels): <- imo best option

How which level affect training:
1 level(the worst, the lowest talent) = every training(by every training i mean every training which you can set up) = 84% of your training value
2 level = 86% of your training value
3 level = 88% of your training value
4 level = 90% of your training value
5 level = 92% of your training value
6 level = 94% of your training value
7 level = 96% of your training value
8 level = 98% of your training value
9 level(the best) = every training stay like it is now

Example:
If rider at the moment train with 7 trainings on one specific type of skill and have a chance to improve it 78%.
After adding talent level he has:
1lvl - 78%/7 *0.84*7 = ~65.52%
2lvl - 78%/7 *0.86*7 = ~67.08%
3lvl - 78%/7 *0.88*7 = ~68.64%
4lvl - 78%/7 *0.90*7 = ~70.02%
5lvl - 78%/7 *0.92*7 = ~71.76%
6lvl - 78%/7 *0.94*7 = ~73.32%
7lvl - 78%/7 *0.96*7 = ~74.88%
8lvl - 78%/7 *0.98*7 = ~76.44%
9lvl - = 78%

If rider at the moment train with 7 trainings on one specific type of skill and have a chance to improve it 140%.
After adding talent level he has:
1lvl - 140%/7 *0.84*7 = ~117.6%
2lvl - 140%/7 *0.86*7 = ~120.4%
3lvl - 140%/7 *0.88*7 = ~123.2%
4lvl - 140%/7 *0.90*7 = ~126%
5lvl - 140%/7 *0.92*7 = ~128.8%
6lvl - 140%/7 *0.94*7 = ~131.6%
7lvl - 140%/7 *0.96*7 = ~124.4%
8lvl - 140%/7 *0.98*7 = ~137.2%
9lvl - = 140%

If rider at the moment train with 7 trainings on one specific type of skill and have a chance to improve it 21%.
After adding talent level he has:
1lvl - 21%/7 *0.84*7 = ~17.64%
2lvl - 21%/7 *0.88*7 = ~18.06%
3lvl - 21%/7 *0.92*7 = ~18.48%
4lvl - 21%/7 *0.90*7 = ~18.9%
5lvl - 21%/7 *0.92*7 = ~19.32%
6lvl - 21%/7 *0.94*7 = ~19.74%
7lvl - 21%/7 *0.96*7 = ~20.16%
8lvl - 21%/7 *0.98*7 = ~20.58%
9lvl - = 21%

Big impact on game, with more level imo well balanced.


TRAIING SIMULATOR!
http://szyker.pl/sim.php

Other things:
- the values and salary stay like it is now. No need to change it, cos better talent doesn't mean the rider will be better, so still should be counted by skills and regen.
- talent is generated for every new rider, it will never change.
- talent affect mainly for worse training than now, so it will not make new riders super cyborgs with 99 points in skills, it will actually make it harder to get high skill, but the variety of rider will be wider.
- the talent can be shown as a stars or some bars, exmaple:

The chances that new generated rider will get good talent:

5level system:
1lvl: 35% - most have low talent to be good rider
2lvl: 30%
3lvl: 20% - here starts a pro tour riders
4lvl: 10%
5lvl: 5% - exclusive riders, it will be very hard to get such a rider, still it doesn't mean he will be training super good.

9leel system:
1lvl - 20%
2lvl - 18%
3lvl - 16%
4lvl - 14%
5lvl - 12%
6lvl - 8%
7lvl - 6%
8lvl - 4%
9lvl - 2% -exclusive

Why in my opinion it's good idea:
- more fun on transfer list, it will be harder to make a good bid because you will have to valuate not only skills of rider but also talent
- bigger variety in riders
- you will need to consider which rider is better, with worse skills but better talent or better skills lower talent
- the training still will be all about luck, but now you have ability to make it little better when you buy rider with higher talent, so your choice when buying rider affect much more training
- your riders will have awesome stars
- like in real life, all riders have different talent to do their job, option for real freaks

The bad things about this idea:
- the riders which exist now will have randomly added talent if this options will be added to the game

The things to consider:
- I wrote that talent shouldn't affect value of rider, it can, lower talent lower value of rider than now, but in my opinion it isnt good idea, higher talent doesn't mean better rider.
- all values open for discussion
- for 6-7 div market max 5 talent lvl?
- more riders on transfer list, especially for 1-5div market because of wider variety of rider, but how much more? 50%? 75%? 100%?

[Buhmann]

Would not be a big thing to implement. Many players interested? Disadvantages?

[team fl]

The suggestion sounds not difficult and easy to implement. But: We could argue that at the moment, the talent is just hidden. Or the talent is given by the youth rider's starting skills. And that's the main argument against the proposal, at least for me: There is not much added value to the game with this. 1st because it's just a fancy nice to have and 2nd because it won't change much. You could argue that these are exactly the reasons to implement it. Hihi.

Anyway, let's look at it in detail:

Every rider has a talent which affect his training, its generated randomly and it's visible to everyone. There are 5 level of talents.

How which level affect training:
1 level(the worst, the lowest talent) = every training(by every training i mean every training which you can set up) -0.8%
2 level = every training -0.6%
3 level = every training -0.4%
4 level = every training -0.2%
5 level(the best) = every training stay like it is now

Example:
If rider at the moment train with 7 trainings on one specific type of skill and have a chance to improve it 78%.
After adding talent level he has:
1lvl - 78% - 7 * (-0.8%) =~ 72%
2lvl - 78% - 7 * (-0.6%) =~ 73%
3lvl - 78% - 7 * (-0.4%) =~ 75%
4lvl - 78% - 7 * (-0.2%) =~ 76%
5lvl - 78% - 7 * (-0.0%) =~ 78%

Looks good to me for such a suggestion, but: Will it affect a 21yo as well? meaning: will the 21yo with 100% training probability have automatically 100-7*(-0.8%) trainings probability, even if 7 trainings are set for a certain skill?

Other things:
- the values and salary stay like it is now. No need to change it, cos better talent doesn't mean the rider will be better, so still should be counted by skills and regen.
- talent is generated for every new rider, it will never change.
- talent affect mainly for worse training than now, so it will not make new riders super cyborgs with 99 points in skills, it will actually make it harder to get high skill, but the variety of rider will be wider.
- the talent can be shown as a stars or some bars, exmaple: need to make better one

Also nice if such a thing would be implemented. BUUUUT: Values have to change with the talent. Expectation is the word I am searching for. You pay also for the expectation or value a rider according to it. Thus, the market value of a rider should also be according to his talent. Well, this might be affected by bidding anyway, but not for Div.6/7. Maybe the same way that training is affected (-0.0 % till -0.8 %)? Salary should stay the same.

The chances that new generated rider will get good talent:
1lvl: 40% - most have low talent to be good rider
2lvl: 30%
3lvl: 15% - here starts a pro tour riders
4lvl: 10%
5lvl: 5% - exclusive riders, it will be very hard to get such a rider, still it doesn't mean he will be training super good.

I would make a nice Lorenz curve out of it . Im sure these part is open for discussion.

Why in my opinion it's good idea:
- more fun on transfer list, it will be harder to make a good bid because you will have to valuate not only skills of rider but also talent
- bigger variety in riders
- you will need to consider which rider is better, with worse skills but better talent or better skills lower talent
- the training still will be all about luck, but now you have ability to make it little better when you buy rider with higher talent, so your choice when buying rider affect much more training
- your riders will have awesome stars
- like in real life, all riders have different talent to do their job, option for real freaks

I don't think that it will be much more fun either on the transfermarket nor for training. And it will certainly not lead to a bigger variety in riders (except if you sort them for talent too), as training luck is still the most important thing to get a good rider out of a decent youth rider. But of course I can't argue against "awesome stars"...

The riders already have different talents btw, shown in their starting skills, as already written above. And again, this is one of the main point against this proposal from my side.

The bad things about this idea:
- the riders which exist now will have randomly added talent if this options will be added to the game

Just give them all an average talent.

The things to consider:
- I wrote that talent shouldn't affect value of rider, it can, lower talent lower value of rider than now, but in my opinion it isnt good idea, higher talent doesn't mean better rider.
- values of talent affect training and chances to get which level of talent
- for 6-7 div market max 3/4 talent lvl

Higher talent means higher expectations and thus more value. See above. I don't understand your second points... Div. 6/7 have to be treated sperately as they also do not bid on riders and thus also not consider talent when deciding the price they want to pay.

My conclusion would be: nice suggestion, but we simply don't need it as talent is already included by starting skills of riders and the talent system won't have a big effect anyway on riders.

[Radomiak]

The suggestion sounds not difficult and easy to implement. But: We could argue that at the moment, the talent is just hidden. Or the talent is given by the youth rider's starting skills. And that's the main argument against the proposal, at least for me: There is not much added value to the game with this. 1st because it's just a fancy nice to have and 2nd because it won't change much. You could argue that these are exactly the reasons to implement it. Hihi.

Talent is hidden - i guess you mean luck in trainings, it will be still the biggest factor, but imo it's stupid saying talent is luck, because it's not, it's just random, you can't affect it anyhow. I give you option to let you affect it at least little bit when choosing to buy rider.
I don't agree about "talent is given by the youth rider's starting skills". Look at real life how many young riders are super promising feature stars at age 21 and then they don't improve to fulfill expectations, it means they were good for their age but they didn't improve good enough cos they haven't so big talent as expected. Ofc, still random training the biggest factor.

Looks good to me for such a suggestion, but: Will it affect a 21yo as well? meaning: will the 21yo with 100% training probability have automatically 100-7*(-0.8%) trainings probability, even if 7 trainings are set for a certain skill?

It's very simple. If he will have 100%, than yes his chance will be lower, but if sometimes your training is evaluated more then 100%, for example if your 21y rider has this training skill counted for 105%, he will have still 100% in training after adding talent and having 1lvl of it.

I make a math very simple there, but correct should be like this
At the moment rider have 140% to get skill point if training for one skill
140% / 7 = 20%
so one training give you 20% atm
1lvl star will be then:
20-(-0.8%) + 20-(-0.8%) + 20-(-0.8%) + 20-(-0.8%) + 20-(-0.8%) + 20-(-0.8%) + 20-(-0.8%) = 134.4%

Sry for my bad explanation, my mistake

Also nice if such a thing would be implemented. BUUUUT: Values have to change with the talent. Expectation is the word I am searching for. You pay also for the expectation or value a rider according to it. Thus, the market value of a rider should also be according to his talent. Well, this might be affected by bidding anyway, but not for Div.6/7. Maybe the same way that training is affected (-0.0 % till -0.8 %)? Salary should stay the same.

Imo the change is too small to actually affect riders value. But it's also an option, can't say your argument is bad.

I don't think that it will be much more fun either on the transfermarket nor for training. And it will certainly not lead to a bigger variety in riders (except if you sort them for talent too), as training luck is still the most important thing to get a good rider out of a decent youth rider. But of course I can't argue against "awesome stars"...

"as training luck is still the most important thing to get a good rider out of a decent youth rider" - thats true, this idea will not change the training system, it only affect it, i have never said it will be new training system. Variety of rider will be wider because you have one new option to consider when buying new rider, but it's true that this option will not big so super big deal like skill points and regen, but I guess it's good.

My conclusion would be: nice suggestion, but we simply don't need it as talent is already included by starting skills of riders and the talent system won't have a big effect anyway on riders.

Talent isn't included, it's super randomnes in training, however it will be still randomns but it will allow you at least to have some small affect on it. And yes the talent system will not have big impact on a game, it's more tweak. more options and possibilities = more fun.

BUT if this option would have to have bigger impact on game, than it's possible to make more talent levels, for example that will affect training even more. After that talent will be more serious thing in game.

[team fl]

Just for explanation: I didn't mean that talent is represented by the chance for training. But I get your point that talent is also not represented by the starting skills.

As far as I see it now, I am indifferent. For me, it's not needed, but I won't care if talent is added. And who knows, perhaps it's a good thing.

At least it's a very well thought suggestion for once and thus worth checking it out.

Some more thoughts about it, still playing the role of the devil's advocate: You could argue that this mostly affects the managerial part of the game. But as RSF/C4F is meant mostly not as a manager game (although it is an important part) but more as a cycling simulation, this change would put more weight on the manageril side of the scale. But if the for example the sprint revolution (!) would be successful, this might balance it out again.

[Radomiak]

I added tweak for much older riders in 1st post.

[Radomiak]

I added new option + training simulator

[sylvainmeteo]

The only disavantages is that we will spend again more time on transfert market

I'm not against it, it's interesting

[AlmavivaItalia]

Hmmm..

I think that in case of 5 level, 1 should be more than actual level of training (or it can be added as 6th level)--->the "Champions", The "Best of the best",where the % are higer than now.

And sincerely, IMO, the revolution of the talent, for an higher effect, need to be linked to something different, like Cumulative training.

For example, you can weak young riders a bit, then give to the talent a "fork of salary", and you can develop your rider until salary reaches this fork. After it, rider develops very slowly. More is the "talent", more the salary the rider can reach. So it's linear.
And so we can have a 50-50-50-50-50 with max talent that, in his career, can develops until a 70-70-70-70-70, for example.

Or the talent represent how much the salary can increase from the starting salary:
(examples)
1= between 15 and 20%
2= between 40 and 50%
3= between 65 and 80%
4= between 90 and 100%
5= unlimited.


Cumulative training meanings that i train flat for 3 weeks at 35% (example) and i'm sure to increase of 1 point minimum.


But simply have difference in dice launch, for me, is not so "beautiful", despite can be interesting.


i hope i'll explain good

[Radomiak]

@AlmavivaItalia Well your proposition would change completely whole training system, from random to easily expected one. There are some good things about and bad. If you will be able to predict how the rider will develop and you will remove random luck in training some rider will be almost the same, there will be in my opinion less variety in riders, which isn't good. However the good thing about it will be much more fair training which doesn't depend on luck.

I wanted only a simple fun talent feature which will improve little bit game and make it more fun, add new options and possibilities. I don't feel like changing whole training system. However thing is open for discussion.

[Radunion]

Including a talent leads to less equal fields. I think this is a problem. If the difference between the top riders in a field is high tactics become less interesting. Especially for mountain riders and classics riders every skill point counts. You cannot win a mountain top finish with 2 mountain skill less (assuming equal form).

For example a mountain rider trains approximately 15 points in his carrier (73 -> 88). When he just train 84 % he train over 2 points less (2.4 to be exact). This makes him a rather useless rider. For classics that train about 20 mountain points the difference is even bigger (3.2 points). As a result this rider is very likely useless.

The result of such a reform is that high talented riders will become much more expensive and teams are much more tended to ride for money to afford such riders.

[Radomiak]

@Radunion Well thats true what you said, but still the training will be all about luck, so worse talent doesn't mean worse rider + the difference between talent levels isn't so big.