Too much prize money (in low-cat stage races)?

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Gipfelstuermer
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Too much prize money (in low-cat stage races)?

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Tue Sep 03, 2024 10:06 pm

Separate topic, but it came up in the off-season thread and also relates to the monthly calendar planning.

Situation/Background
For some time now, many teams have the impression there is too much money in-game. In the past, this was mostly due to small fields (easier to earn money there). Now with more participants that should have become a bit more difficult, but on the other hand, we now offer more stage races. More players, more stage races. Logical, but with some small side effects: First, there is more prize money in stage races, so it becomes again easier to earn money. Second, there are also more C4F points in stage races, so people who prefer one day races have a disadvantage. Third, participation in one day races may suffer if there are lots of stage races parallel.

Balancing
We already have some balancing mechanisms, like the progressive taxes, the auction system and the maximum covered salary, all introduced by Buhmann. Another mechanism are the prize money factors for different categories of races, introduced by luques (in addition to the previously existing points factors).

Current Factors
Cat. - GC Points - Stage Points - GC Money - Stage Money
1: 0.070 - 0.085 - 0.850 - 0.800
2: 0.180 - 0.105 - 0.900 - 0.900
3: 0.290 - 0.130 - 1.000 - 1.000
4: 0.430 - 0.160 - 1.100 - 1.100
5: 1.000 - 0.210 - 1.100 - 1.250

These were designed to balance the line-ups, meaning to incentivize expensive line-ups for higher cat. races and cheaper line-ups for lower cat. races. A goal which was probably achieved.

They were not designed to change the amount of money in the system (Hence Cat.3 is factor 1x and the distribution around it is almost symmetric). They were also not designed to balance between stage races and one day races (there are similar factors for both).

So my proposal is to change these factors, so that there will be less money in the system, and to only change them for stage races so that one day races become a bit more attractive (as compared to lower cat stage races). The proposal:

Proposed Factors
Cat. - GC Points - Stage Points - GC Money - Stage Money
1: 0.05 - 0.06 - 0.65 - 0.60
2: 0.15 - 0.09 - 0.75 - 0.75
3: 0.25 - 0.12 - 0.95 - 0.95
4: 0.40 - 0.15 - 1.05 - 1.05
5: 1.00 - 0.21 - 1.10 - 1.25

This would result in the following reduction in points and prize money for stage races.

Effect
Cat. - GC Points - Stage Points - GC Money - Stage Money
1: -29% -29% -24% -25%
2: -17% -14% -17% -17%
3: -14% -8% -5% -5%
4: -7% -6% -5% -5%
5: unchanged

Of course the percentages could be fine tuned. They result from a small simplification of the factors (max 2 decimals) and illustrate how lower category stage races would be more affected by the change than higher category stage races.

Now roast me for this proposal :)
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Quick
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Re: Too much prize money (in low-cat stage races)?

Post by Quick » Wed Sep 04, 2024 10:37 am

Gipfelstuermer wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2024 10:06 pm
Separate topic, but it came up in the off-season thread and also relates to the monthly calendar planning.

Situation/Background
First, there is more prize money in stage races, so it becomes again easier to earn money. Second, there are also more C4F points in stage races, so people who prefer one day races have a disadvantage.

Now roast me for this proposal :)
My man wants to be roasted, so here I am. Actually with questions first.
Because I mainly ride daystages and mainly look at making money over points or winning(believe it or not).

Points 100% at an disadvantage. No question. But I thought, it's the Balance behind stage races(if enough participants) earning *less* money.

So I'm a bit of an outlier but the Standard Tour with 5 stages, say has 2 sprints, 1 mountain, 1classic and 1 open in between. If I ride this Tour, I don't make as much money as in the side program. Why: sideprog. I can pick 5 different line ups for 5 days. Everytime with nearly no salary, so 50k profit/day always possible. And probably what every team can do, if the team building is designed to make some money here and there.

Now the tour: if I want to win, I need a climber. Probably at least 1 classic too. Anyway, climber+cheap team still means I pay 30-50k salary. Now climber and okay team is around 75-100k salary for most managers.

And now with only 1 mountain stage, the climber barely earns back what he costs me over the 3-4 stages, where he's just useless sitting in the lineup.
So 50k x days for the tour win, is actually not much, right? If you put it down to 35k, basically every climber loses you money for every tour he rides without a majority of mountain stages.

And it's basically the same for most of these small tours. You need to compromise and that's already costing you money.

Except in small groups but we had a discussion there and it went nowhere for now.

Anyway, from my pov, it's not even sure the conclusion tours=more money is true. But you can cut it of course if you want to. Maybe still cut it for day races too.

Can't speak for the finances of the tour riders if you really earn too much. Day stages defo do. And we still should
change the salary refund for groups <10 teams.
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Gipfelstuermer
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Re: Too much prize money (in low-cat stage races)?

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Wed Sep 04, 2024 1:45 pm

Yes, good one, I forgot to mention that there is a balancing effect there like you explained. Teams can adjust their line-up in one day races, while they can't in a stage race, making stage races potentially more expensive.

But overall, a lot of teams have the impression that small stage races are more profitable - which is somehow logical with roughly 40% more prize money available (because of all the GC money distributed in addition to the stage money).

Here are some recent comments from teams in that direction:
Robyklebt wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2024 6:43 pm
At some point it becomes a balance problem, points and money, people who can't ride tours or prefer 1 day races now get disadvantaged too much. They are at a disadvantage anyway with regards to points and money, there was no need to make that disadvantage artificially bigger.
cataracs wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2024 8:36 pm
Too much money is already a problem in the game.
Too much money will be given in December January and the other small tours already, we don't need another bigger money giving tour like Faso.
More opinions might help to confirm one view or the other.

Apart from that, you raise a slightly different topic:
Quick wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2024 10:37 am
And we still should change the salary refund for groups <10 teams.
I got roasted for my suggestions on that last time and ended up not changing it because it felt to me like there was no consensus on how to change it. But indeed changing the salary refund was less controversial (only one or two teams expressing doubts) than changing the prize money (where the discussion got stuck on what would be a "fair base"... with something between 12 and 15 a potential consensus).
GIP MASTERPLAN
Gameplay: Flexible Min-Tact. Improve Sprint System. Windkante.
Marketing: Re-attract old players. Advertisement. Social Media.
New Players: Fair Start Budget, New Tutorial.
Fairplay: Improve FPC features, Fair Prize Money Disribution.

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Re: Too much prize money (in low-cat stage races)?

Post by Quick » Wed Sep 04, 2024 1:59 pm

This why I'm asking you tour guys if you really earn so much during regular tours. Of course the <7 team groups are ridiculously profitable. The <10team groups are also very good money makers but 13+ teams, I'm not sure anymore.

But again, idk. If you say, you earn much more even during these tours, then balance it.

Yap, we tend to overdiscuss things here :)
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Radunion
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Re: Too much prize money (in low-cat stage races)?

Post by Radunion » Wed Sep 04, 2024 4:26 pm

I usually earn more with one day races. I tend not to ride cheap on tours and the field in the evening are seldom very small. So this will not be representative either.

Hansa
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Re: Too much prize money (in low-cat stage races)?

Post by Hansa » Wed Sep 04, 2024 4:36 pm

Radunion wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2024 4:26 pm
I usually earn more with one day races. I tend not to ride cheap on tours and the field in the evening are seldom very small. So this will not be representative either.
i 2nd this, if i want to earn money i go with cheap teams to one day races, i often dont make money on tours but i also try to be competetive there. early evening also normally a decent number of participants but i cant really say if the cheap team on tours approach would make even more money than cheap team on one day races.

on the other hand i pretty much agree with the points earning. if i am correct since free winning the division 1 win (nearly) always went to a tour heavy team even during the spring classics.
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schappy
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Re: Too much prize money (in low-cat stage races)?

Post by schappy » Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:04 pm

I do agree that we got to much money in stage Races. The biggest Problem ist the balancing of all money based stuff is with big fields. 22 Teams in one race are not often happens in the past too of course. But in average we had races with much more teams.

In My Opinion 100% money and points are only in big fields okay. So we maybe have to switch the calculation from 10 teams to 20 teams. Everybody will not lik ethis, but we really have too much money here. Everybody can have rider for every terrain. Its only my opinion.

The Gipfel post is good too, maybe some small changes, but we have to change something. I try to take part in every stage races, because of the more and easy money in the end of a stage race.
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Bear
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Re: Too much prize money (in low-cat stage races)?

Post by Bear » Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:14 pm

Maybe post some Numbers. I can remember some Teams earning more than a million in Small tours. Usually with climber for GC and going for escapes the other stages. If you are good in GC you dont need to earn much on stages to get a good amount of money per day.

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olmania
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Re: Too much prize money (in low-cat stage races)?

Post by olmania » Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:25 pm

I agree with many things said previously here. "Earning more with tours" is not true for all and all times.
I did not earn more than one day races when I had in tours my line up with a leader like Brule (high salary, need classic support (climber support too, I did not have it), high reg helpers, etc.) even if getting p1/p2 almost everytime. I actually lost money in a few tours even with p2 gk and stage win. So one day races, would have been much more profitable.
Brule is maybe the worst kind of leader money wise, as he performs only on TT stage (unlike climbers who can perform on all mountain stages).

In contrast, last autumn, I was able to earn a lot more in small tours where I (over)performed with a cheap team.
Of course the <7 team groups are ridiculously profitable. The <10team groups are also very good money makers but 13+ teams, I'm not sure anymore.
And we still should
change the salary refund for groups <10 teams.
That's very important points.
These last months, we had quite often a big difference of number of teams in the evening tour (>12, or even up to 18), when the other times had sometimes only 6-8 teams. and the benefits/loss differences between these groups were HUGE ! Ok, sometimes evening teams were a little bit more paying salary, but still, the 6-8 teams groups were often all super profitable, when sometimes almost half of the evening group was loosing money; or barely being even.

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Pokemon Club
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Re: Too much prize money (in low-cat stage races)?

Post by Pokemon Club » Fri Sep 13, 2024 7:20 am

What do you call earn too much exactly ? And for which kind of teams ?
We can speak with data and really check who earned what and how now no ?
And another point to take in consideration, Gipfel or Poke feeling about money isn't the same of newcomer feeling who should ride against a lot of confirmed teams.

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