March 2024

[Bear]

Is km 190 at Grote prijs Jean-Pierre Monsere just a climb or also pavé? same km is still buggy or not?

[drei.zehn]

Is km 190 at Grote prijs Jean-Pierre Monsere just a climb or also pavé? same km is still buggy or not?

As far as I know just downhill is/was buggy

[lennylenny]

Is km 190 at Grote prijs Jean-Pierre Monsere just a climb or also pavé? same km is still buggy or not?

As far as I know just downhill is/was buggy

it was/is? buggy as the pave will happen, but the gpm will not if they are both on the same km

[Elaska]

Hello, is it possible on these coming 2 days to have the designed/confirmed races in the calendar? to see the profile of each in order to set our form. Especially for TA.
Thanks

[Gipfelstuermer]

Hello, is it possible on these coming 2 days to have the designed/confirmed races in the calendar? to see the profile of each in order to set our form. Especially for TA.
Thanks

See in this thread or under Editor > Calendar Preview

[Gipfelstuermer]

Is km 190 at Grote prijs Jean-Pierre Monsere just a climb or also pavé? same km is still buggy or not?

Thanks for spotting that, Bear!

It's fixed now (only the km, not in the profile, because it was published already). Seems we rode it like that in 2023, but I've made Gitsberg 2* -1 now with the KOM on the -1 consistently.

[Robyklebt]

See in this thread or under Editor > Calendar Preview

Well, if the editor wasn't hidden under "more", maybe more people would find it! Pro 2 rows!

But Elaska isn't wrong, probably time to put stuff online...

Milano-Sanremo isn't in the calendar preview yet either, ok didn't post it here, thought a "done" in the editor chat was enough...

I'll post it now:

- Gravel Races (Waffle + Eroica) staying for now. I understand there is a lot of pave/gravel this month. Debate was around whether it's too much or not too much with various opinions. In the end, I wouldn't like erasing or moving the Eroica race just after we had announced the series in February promising 1 race per month. That would be a shame for the series and the designer. For the Waffle, it could be erased more easily, but it is only in parallel programm II, so I don't think it hurts much. Most people can easily avoid it if they don't like it (in fact I expect many will do considering popularity of PN and TA). More generally, in the long-run, of course we can review our approach to Gravel races. The idea was to have the Waffles (5 races in 2024) and the Eroica (8 races) in the Season and then Cyclocross (8 races) in off-season. But maybe those aren't the most popular races and also, the gravel scene evolves quickly. In fact, UCI has started publishing their own official Gravel calendar, with normal races, with World Championships, etc.... So the gravel calendar can also change here, and maybe we should exclude them from March/April because of classics season, and try to spread the gravel calendar more consistently across the year. Those are just thoughts for the long-run. Ideas/Comments welcome as always.

See, that's the answer you should have written first, instead of going for stupid questions.

Since I haven't commented on the topic yet, only on your not very commendable efforts to piss people off, so now my take on the actual topic:
March this year is pavé heavy in reality, gravel STrade Bianche. Add the 2 quasi-fantasy races and it's even more. Personally I don't really care. MY biggest concern is that these gravel races take over from pavé. Or become too many like it was for one month in autumn. Not much pavé there, now thanks to Tukh more, so not too worried for the moment. A sensible searching tool in the editor would of course help AAD. If we ever decide to change the gravel races to **/***/**** or something ( I'd be opposed) then ok ok, we can regard gravel and pavé as the same, but for the moment should be regarded as similar but separate I think. Continuing the policy of 2 pavé races a month, one flat, one hilly if possible seems sensible to me. Now if it's forgotten a month, ok, it took FL quite a while to make me remember that too, after a year or so though just his presence in a race made me break out in cold sweat and remember pavé races... If there's not enough of one type, hilly missing, flat missing, ok... 2 of the same type. And sometimes it will be more easy races, more races with some pavé than 'real' pavé races, all ok too. Happens. Long story short: I'm for the policy of 2 pavé races per month to continue regardless of how many gravel races we have.

Now for this month, maybe some flexibility wouldnt' have hurt. With Eroica South Africa changing their date to April, with the oversupply of gravel/pavé this month for some, and let's not forget, with the original Eroica, Strade Bianche (the first edition, held in Autumn, was still called Monte Paschi Eroica. The name changed to Strade Bianche a few years later) in March too, you could simply have postponed South Africa to its new real date. We have an "eroica" this month. Possibly even add it to that series (or not, as you as the designer preferred) Then have South Africa on its new real date, and then keep the 1 race a month until it's over.

- MSR 10-14-18-21 (one of the longest races in C4F, so earlier start times maybe better)

Makes sense, but changing suddenly without a single complaint late in the month maybe not ideal either. For me actually this time 15h would have been better I think, there's a chance I come a bit late for 14h. Mobile... with early warning I might have complained (but might not have and just do it by mobile, plus it's not sure yet anyway)... no comments of course can mean a lots of things, but one of them is agreement as well (not reading but complaining later, not reading, not caring are other reasons)

[lennylenny]

official presentation for Catalunya today at 17:45 CET

[Schartner Bombe]

Now for this month, maybe some flexibility wouldnt' have hurt. With Eroica South Africa changing their date to April, with the oversupply of gravel/pavé this month for some, and let's not forget, with the original Eroica, Strade Bianche (the first edition, held in Autumn, was still called Monte Paschi Eroica. The name changed to Strade Bianche a few years later) in March too, you could simply have postponed South Africa to its new real date. We have an "eroica" this month. Possibly even add it to that series (or not, as you as the designer preferred) Then have South Africa on its new real date, and then keep the 1 race a month until it's over.

Yes, you're right - I haven't considered that, and maybe Gip hasn't either. But I think you remember your answer when I asked for ideas about EROICA SERIES. Well, a little too late now I think for this month. But good point.

Basically I see the races as flexible. Only 9 in total (if I remember correctly) - can be moved around - climate has to be right.
Idea was only one per month.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Since Schartner agrees, I will postpone Eroica South Africa and instead add Strade Bianche to the Race Series as suggested. Last Minute Change. Good we have the 29th Feb this year.

Schartner, maybe you can write down in your design thread which of the other Eroica would then take place which month for the remainder of the year.

[Elaska]

Hello, is it possible on these coming 2 days to have the designed/confirmed races in the calendar? to see the profile of each in order to set our form. Especially for TA.
Thanks

See in this thread or under Editor > Calendar Preview

Ohh thank you ! did not know about that !!!!

[Gipfelstuermer]

Grrr, new route

Prascorsano 3 9 7 3 "These are the climb from Rivara to Prascorsano, with gradients of around 9% in the first part then easing up in the second "

Collereto Castelnuovo 3 7 6 "and, after Cuorgnè, the Colleretto Castelnuovo climb, which is a little smoother. "

fixed gpm of Tirreno

Means it is final and can be published, yes ?

[lennylenny]

fixed gpm of Tirreno

Means it is final and can be published, yes ?

yes

[Schartner Bombe]

VOLTA A CATALUNYA
for doing formsettings maybe this helps the teams which are going for Catalunya.
So all gpx here today - some little tunign must be done ext days. more information will come.
still have to check datas and climbs until we ride it.
Please give suggestions on mintact, climbs etc. ...

Stage 1: hilly
Distance: 174 km
Alto de Sant Grau km 150-155: 2 3 5 6 7 3
mintact km 143 (maybe there is some fight for sprints too)


Stage 2: mountain
Distance: 190 km
Climb to Vallter when it gets steep km 179-190: 6 7 8 10 7 9 9 6 5 8 8 6
mintact km 175


Stage 3: mountain
Distance: 176 km
Port-Aine from km 158-176: 5 8 8 6 7 7 7 6 4 5 7 7 7 7 2 9 6 8 8
mintact km 157


Stage 4:
Distance: 170 km
Climb to Port d'Àger km 67-75: 4 5 4 3 4 7 6 7 7
mintact km 160


Stage 5: hilly
Alt de la Creu d'Aragall from km 129-136: 3 5 8 6 6 5 3
mintact km 128 (if look like long mintacts - ok)


Stage 6: mountain
Coll de Pradell from km 81-94: 5 5 6 6 6 5 0 2 9 13 7 12 14 8
Collada de Sant Isidre from km 123-127: 9 9 10 8 7
Climb to Queralt km 148-153: 3 7 8 5 8 8
mintact km 122 (see it like lenny)


Stage 7:
Distance: 145 km
mintact km 120

[Gipfelstuermer]

VOLTA A CATALUNYA
for doing formsettings maybe this helps the teams which are going for Catalunya. Sorry gpx datas online since today or yesterday - not for stage 4 and stage 7, but has to be enough for formsettings I think. More information will come.

Stage 7:

Same as last year ! I can pull the profile for that

[Schartner Bombe]

will do both stages which are left today - there are online now.
stage 7 looks only nearly the same as last year.

[Robyklebt]

Please give suggestions on mintact, climbs etc. when we have all the stages.

How about a general minimum of 30km?

Stage 1: hilly
Distance: 174 km
Alto de Sant Grau km 150-155: 2 3 5 6 7 3
mintact km 160(?)

Guess my advice will fall on deaf ears!

Better than 160 are 3 options:
1) 144 (30km)
2) 152 (BEFORE the decisive climb of the day, not 5km after)
3) 174 The sense of 14 km mintact AFTER the last difficulty of the day is a mystery, more often than not those last 14 km need less thinking than the ones before the climb. If you do it AFTER the climb, 160 is most definitely wrong, it's has to be 174. Yes, no mintact at all. At km 160 decisions are mostly made.

Stage 2+3: 30km
Stage 5 km 130
Stage 6 km 122

[Schartner Bombe]

Please give suggestions on mintact, climbs etc. when we have all the stages.

How about a general minimum of 30km?

Stage 1: hilly
Distance: 174 km
Alto de Sant Grau km 150-155: 2 3 5 6 7 3
mintact km 160(?)

Guess my advice will fall on deaf ears!

Better than 160 are 3 options:
1) 144 (30km)
2) 152 (BEFORE the decisive climb of the day, not 5km after)
3) 174 The sense of 14 km mintact AFTER the last difficulty of the day is a mystery, more often than not those last 14 km need less thinking than the ones before the climb. If you do it AFTER the climb, 160 is most definitely wrong, it's has to be 174. Yes, no mintact at all. At km 160 decisions are mostly made.

Stage 2+3: 30km
Stage 5 km 130
Stage 6 km 122

No, it doesn't fall on deaf ears.
Our relationship to mintact length is like John-Boy and Grandpa Walton. John-Boy doesn't know enough about Mintact yet and will therefore look at Grandpa's idea next week. stage 2+3 you mean last 30km? John-Boy starts to like mintacts stage 1 would do 142 before the sprint.

[lennylenny]

i am against 30km mintact on every race, especially if the stages are in the 180+km range. But for stage 6 the mintact starts right after the downhill of the Cat2, would say 122 would make more sense
same at stage 5

really against 30km on stage 2+3, just a bunch of flat before a big mountain, mintact is poinless there

[Robyklebt]

i am against 30km mintact on every race, especially if the stages are in the 180+km range.

When I design I indeed do longer than 30km mintact sometimes! So no need to worry about a fix 30 km mintact.

But seriously: Long races are the ones that need longer mintact from a gameplay point of view. That's the conundrum, time vs gameplay. A 120 km race, will an attack from 50km out have chances? 240km race, attack from 50 km out? The one in the long race is more dangerous. The shorter the race, the less mintact is needed. Or if anything it would be needed at km 1-10... after that for short races basically the race story is mostly written. Fast escape, fast chase, late attacks few chances (always depending on the profile a bit too) The long race? Attacks from further out simply have more chances, the decisive phase of the race, where you have to think a bit harder starts earlier. In the short races on the other hand there's not too much to decide at 50, 40, 30, 20, 10 km from the end. So 180km=shorter mintact from my point of view is just the wrong way too look at it. It should be 180+, so longer if anything.
If you look at it mostly from the time perspective, then yes, 80km sprint race, 50km mintact, makes sense, from a gameplay perspective it would no mintact at all. It's simply not needed.

really against 30km on stage 2+3, just a bunch of flat before a big mountain, mintact is poinless there

Not as pointless as in a flat 80km race, but in stages like that, while I would stick to my 30km minimum (and expect to be able to defend the sense of it so that it wouldn't be changed) I wouldn't complain about it if it was shorter, unless like here I see other problems. Stage 1 and then 5+6, where you basically said the same as I did anyway. So mentioned my 30km mintact in 2+3 as well, but see no real problem with the mintact Bombe has (ok, km 157, there was something about having it on even numbers? PLUS 156 is a sprint, I'd put it at 156 then (well, I would have 30km of course, but if not...)

Oh, changed, stage 1 to 143... same problem, uneven numbers. And for me here (since I don't insist on my nice 30 km rule for others) really 152 would have been perfectly fine.
Stage 4 new, here see my short essay on length vs time, gameplay.. here I definitely would put it longer, while 2-3 are ok, here IMO is not..

A comment on stage 7: The final circuit! It's a bitch to design, I remember from past years, so doesn't have to be the same as last year, if I remember correctly the circuit has an annoying length, the climb the same, different versions possible (the one from last year not wrong, but there's if I remember correctly other solutions that aren't wrong either)
Now the climb goes from 5 to 9%, different on each lap. IMO should be the same each lap, either x meters longer or x meters shorter than the real circuit, whatever is closer and/or makes more sense.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Stage 7:
Distance: 145 km
mintact km 120

Here is the profile with last year's version of the circuit

4 1 6 -2 -6 4 -4 -3



You can find it under the profiles > Filter > All. Then search for catalunya23_07

[Gipfelstuermer]

same as 2023



Different run in to the bergs, but otherwise same route (9km shorter because of that)

[olmania]

[flockmastoR]

Final PDF
March 2024

Rhodes GP is published for the 08. but pdf says 09. what is the correct date?

[Robyklebt]

1)The circuit on stage 7 in Catalunya! x times the same lap, should be the same percentages each time around!
2)Strade Bianche: We're probably a few years late anyway, but think that from 2025 on we should upgrade it to category 5? Its prestige already surpasses that of all other cat 4s anyway, and of quite a few cat 5.