unrealistic ride of Auxilium and Corocina

[Mangahn]

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5492&start=100#p99173

Well known from all teams who ride/look to races at the late evening there is/was a problem with multiteams and other cheater.

Doria (italian)
Fedex (italian)
Ciclistica (italian)
are banned for VPN reasons.

Corocina (italian) and Auxilium (italian) are still on stage. Still cheating for Auxilium, using there combinated power in obvisiosly not legal way. Luques (italian) clossed the thread because of messi-look. Which is nothing else than enough information to punish both teams.

What happens most of the time: Coro is riding for Aux. Not only a bit. Without shame and hiding, the hole team do everthing for his buddy.
This included a lot of unforced tempo for the ms for the much stronger aux or
if Coro is Favo like yesterday he pulled for aux and waited for aux rider to get him into good position for an attack.

If you not Ban Aux for his doing there must be a big fine, a warning and most obvisiosly a correct of the statistik. 50% (or more) of the stage wins are not legal.

[team fl]

What of this

Feel free to open others just related to the race, team involved and so on if something happens again.

did you not understand? Or not wanted to understand? Or just didn't care about?

Plain accusations and made up numbers without any backing data presented as "facts" don't help.

[Mangahn]

Today (27.11), 11.00 pm.

Coro big Favo. Aux do enough work to make sure it should be a easy win.

If someone needs argue for the italian combo: Aux riding for Coro. Okay, might be this "Aux is a beginner who don´t know how to ride" thing. On the other hand its the same procedure like every day.

So there is still no proof. Ha ha.


P.S.
Coro waitet long and often enough to make sure his friend is able to be there and win. I know when its time to laugh.
The best is the text from Aux:
Auxilium Torino: du hast von spiel 0 ahnung, nur eine grosse klappe und nicht mehr
Auxilium Torino: so, du genie...noch sicher ich war in tempo fuer nothing?


And: Aux is true. He realy knows how to win with two teams against one. Great Aux.

POOR RSF


P.P.S.

Adler was banned for using two teams in a tour. But he uses it only one time (as far as I know).
This guys are allowed to do it night after night.
Its not my race, but thats bullshit

[Mangahn]

From 11.11:

Coro blocking for Aux, siebing his whole team (which helped Aux before all the time). It´s a joke, really.

Today another show time for the gang...

Coro helping Aux the whole stage with work & block having 87 sprint (can't even keep up in 5%) vs. Aux 91-94...

or this one:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5492&start=75#p98938

There is no luck of information, FL. Only luck of investigation.
More than this: there are a lot of things you can´t even copy out of the race. Tempo/not tempo, green tempo instead of red one etc.

Yesterday Aux attacked in front of a hill. Coro set tempo from red to green to make sure that aux rider made it over the hill. A realy dangerous action. After the aux rider is far enough in front Coro go red again.

Its dozent of this action. I understand. Free Team, Kaju, SWE, Newbys understand.

Did you understand? Do you need more copies? I cant believe you don´t know it all by now.

[scorpsche]

I'm supporting this thread as many other teams as well probably.
It is really revealing that FL dares to troll right away.

After the obv. proof of my claims are there and not open communicated in the beginning now Aux & Coro are protected by just closing the thread...

Let me put in a few simple bullets a reasonible (non-troll) mind will understand:
1. I accused 7 teams riding unrealistic and against fp rules together
2. Many other teams supported my claims
3. Many examples were given how and when these teams colluded
4. Now 3 of these teams were banned due to VPN restrictions => conclusions these were Aux / Coro multis ...pretty obvious, right?
5. Aux / Coro are not banned and still continue to ride together => examples when & how were given
6. Still no official FPC investigation
7. Still Aux + Coro are not banned

[ProTour-Team]

Honestly just 1 question for the FPK members: Did any of you actually watch multiple nightraces within the last months?

To me it is pretty obvious that "i dont see it so i dont care" is the way to go for (most of) them, or do you actually believe that so many teams just see ghosts and the involved italian teams are right - while some of them just got vpn-banned recently, another coincidence for sure

[Robyklebt]

One thing I really don't get is:

From reading some of you guys it sounds almost like:

3 teams were VPN-banned just like this, nothing was done by the FPC, nothing was done by Luques, nothing was done by anybody, they just got spontaneously banned, just like that. Some VPN-checking thing mysteriously appeared, and on its own decided to ban 3 teams. Almost like a bug, nothing that was wanted, nothing that was planned in any way. It's just happened.

Is that what you're saying?
No most likely it's not, but you sure make it sound like that. Maybe instead of attacking the FPC how about acknowledging that something has happened? That this wasn't just by pure chance?

To me it is pretty obvious that "i dont see it so i dont care" is the way to go for (most of) them, or do you actually believe that so many teams just see ghosts and the involved italian teams are right - while some of them just got vpn-banned recently, another coincidence for sure

Just to make my point clearer.... sounds like the FPC (and Luques, although in this post he isn't mentioned) has nothing at all to do with VPN bans, they happen outside of everything. Is that so?

Many of the posts are in this vein.

One useful bit is to be found here:

Yesterday Aux attacked in front of a hill. Coro set tempo from red to green to make sure that aux rider made it over the hill. A realy dangerous action. After the aux rider is far enough in front Coro go red again.

See, Manghi of all people manages to write something useful and sensible. THAT'S the kind of stuff that needs to be posted. Fast and immediately, first time I read about this. Manghi himself in his earlier posts didn't deem it necessary to write that detail down, instead he talked about Adler being banned for having 2 teams (which I didn't know, but good, or is it bad in some cases if that happens?) He copied that post in here too.

Unfortunately there's no detailed information in it. There should be. That was at midnight I think? (Might be calculating the time difference wrong). Good, a timely post, but just a general accusation without any clear specific action described. And that simply needs to be in there. LIke it was in the post quoted above. Ideally with the km it happened too. Then if somebody from the FPC is around, he can go, watch the replay. Because no, it's not the FPC's job, to watch the races trying to see if something illegal, suspicious happens, it's our, the normal users, job, to report suspicious things. Detailed, specifics if necessary with screen shots. So that the FPC has something to work from. Just an accusation: THEY COLLABORATED simply isn't enough... how, when, details, like above.
The action Manghi described above? To me seems clear, seems a blatant case of collusion. And while clearly the FPC member's are not as brilliant, perceptive and fantastic as I am, I'm confident in a case like this they would come to the same conclusion as me. Ok, Manghis trustworthiness is always to be questioned, so with screen shots would have been better... But still. This is an actual specific action, that the FPC can work on. The thing the same Manghi posted at midnight isn't. That's just some general accusation withholding the specifics. And then you expect the FPC members, if any of them are online to watch the whole race replay not knowing exactly what to look for? You yourself can't bring yourself to post specifics, (because nothing happens anyway you say), but expect the FPC to watch a whole replay closely without knowing exactly what to look for (and then be attacked by others for "not doing anything" (see VPN bans))
Your expectations are too high for others, the FPC in this case, too low for yourself.

[ProTour-Team]

please stop writing so much bullshit.
we talked about so many races in details for years, fpk never cared and it should still be our job to report every km of every race? yap.. obviously fpc shouldnt investigate

sometimes i really wonder if donkeys are able to think like humans

and obviously the vpn bans finally happend thanks to luques, but maybe think about how long that has been going on with him&others knowing that while the fpc still doesnt care

[Robyklebt]

yap.. obviously fpc shouldnt investigate

Where did I, or anybody else say that?

It's exactly this kind of complete bullshit that isn't helpful at all.

[ProTour-Team]

you are defending them on not investigating so please draw me another conclusion.

Because no, it's not the FPC's job, to watch the races trying to see if something illegal, suspicious happens, it's our, the normal users, job, to report suspicious things. Detailed, specifics if necessary with screen shots. So that the FPC has something to work from. Just an accusation: THEY COLLABORATED simply isn't enough... how, when, details, like above.

like i said, we have commented on various races and never any fpc member at least said anything to it or wanted to investigate. but maybe it is just the donkeys mind working in other ways again

[team fl]

I post my post from the chat here too:

In general I think we can agree on two things:

1.) We all think that Aux and Coroncina's behaviour is very suspicious and has to be investigated; and

2.) it is up to the whole community to deliever good data for the FPC to be able to decide. This includes the particular race, race situation, what happened, what was the collusion about extactly. If we managed to do that, I think something will happen in the FPC.

What is not helpful at all are general accusations or attacking other players personally.

[scorpsche]

Well if I post today's race certain people will say again: can be interpreted bla bla bla...

So instead I will post an interesting chat between Aux & Coro to put some context.
Basically Coro was offline and Aux called him to join the race since he was losing.
Well obv Coro was not a help even online but the thing is: this is one important puzzle piece more the collusion picture Aux, Coro and the VPN multies.

Bildschirmfoto 2018-12-01 um 00.38.12.png (378.24 KiB) Viewed 9357 times

[scorpsche]

...and even some more context from good old time when Coro (aka Samuele) was my mentor.

When Coro is not playing like Aux wants, poor Coro is insulted by Aux.

Bildschirmfoto 2018-11-27 um 23.36.49.png (93.69 KiB) Viewed 9351 times

[Robyklebt]

Indeed a shocking document.
But not for the reason you seem to think.

[chartreusecycle]

Either the FPK should act (at least state that they are investigating) or the FPK should close this topic

In any case the FPK should communicate to stop this kind of endless discussions

[luques]

As it was in the main chat:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qqi9FC ... dRt1b/view

[High Flyer]

As it was in the main chat:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qqi9FC ... dRt1b/view

I was in the race, the sprint was fine and normal. You can see Aux completely blocked off from following either mine or Coro's wheel. If you've raced enough, you'd know how common it is for sprinters not on a train to follow sprinters also not on a train and end up with a line of sprinters with no leadouts.

Once on Fdgames(?), train, he can;t go again or else he would be too tired and hand the race to the person behind him. One team made a break for the win or better position, Coro got on hi wheel and wins. There nothing to it.

Either the FPK should act (at least state that they are investigating) or the FPK should close this topic

In any case the FPK should communicate to stop this kind of endless discussions

I really am in agree with this now. It's getting to the point of just spam. Especially when the person spamming thinks that everything is a piece of useful evidence to the point of filming it. It's becoming borderline obsessive but more importantly, it's starting to make the game more toxic. Wasn't the whole point of this about putting new players off the game. Letting the flop around so freely and loosly in my eyes is havig the same effect.

FPK, make a statement, close threads, i dunno, just do something.

[ProTour-Team]

obviously fpc is handling the situation poorly and SWE is overdoing it from time to time, but i can understand being fed up (as i am aswell) after so many races at night against a lot of italian teams who are banned now + coro and aux. pretty sure you dont deny that they are/were involved in that

[High Flyer]

obviously fpc is handling the situation poorly and SWE is overdoing it from time to time, but i can understand being fed up (as i am aswell) after so many races at night against a lot of italian teams who are banned now + coro and aux. pretty sure you dont deny that they are/were involved in that

I get this, but it's really starting to affect part of the game outside of the 2 teams. On the 8th, day after the race, it was a hilly stage and everyone joined the breakaway except for a few teams including Strumpfhose. Whats the first thing he does?

Accuse us all of having pre-race arrangements to join the break away. He accused us twice at the start, once at the end then gave us all -2's to top it off, saying that it was sh*t/bullsh*t something like that, really dampening the race.

We have 2 new italians teams, maybe they are multi's, maybe they are not. To call them out in public, just day/ on the day after they join, if they are real teams and they see that in chat, would you even bother returning? Called cheats when you've barely started playing simply because you have an Italian flag. These stuff are for PM's to FPC. It's become out of hand.

This whole accusing thing is wearing me down honestly. I can see your point but it's honestly wearing me down. SWE won't change the way he reports things, so it is simply down to the FPC now. I'm not saying they have to close the case or anything, just do / say something substantial before this all bubbles over.

[scorpsche]

Don't turn things upside down HF.

Clear collusion between named teams and everybody knows it.
Also enough examples has been given.

In addition multi accounts are used as the VPN ban shows.
Imo Aux = Doria at least for a larger amount of races.

My hope for justice got smaller and smaller as I see how things are handled by fpc and admin(s).

[High Flyer]

This is my last reply to you directly SWE. Becuase ive honestly has enough of you specifically. Not even the case, not even the spam, just you.

You don’t listen to people. Nothing of what you said is a reply to the critism handed to you and it never is. I am not the only team that thinks this. I at this point don’t care what side you are on. There are people in full agreement with you who think the same way.

You take the whole case too personally. To the point where someone saying the way you go about making the argument is akin to cussing your whole argument. I. Don’t. give. A. Damn. if you want them banned or punished or not becuase this isn’t my problem with you. My problem is the way to report things.

Spam after spam. You’re just throwing sh*t on the wall and seeing which one sticks. And it’s literally every sh*t that you find that you throw. You’re not even taking the time to see and think if it’s actually useful. You just throw it and let’s others analysis it whilst you sit there with the 2 line “Clear collusion here” “One team helped the other”. It’s lazy, repetitive and spiking the games atmosphere.

The only advice if you are willing to take it is speak to another more calmer minded team that agrees with you (maybe even free team), and ask them:
Is this really evidence of collusion?
Does this looks suspicious to you?
Does posting this actually help my argument?
Is this just a common error?

Sorry Luques is this post seems off topic you, I can delete it if necessary, but I feel as if this needs to be said. The chat is one of the first things a new teams sees. So I’ll reiterate:
FPC need to do something substantial.

Thank you.

[scorpsche]

First of all you are right, this is wrong thread for statement(s).
Open your own one or use the notify function.
Imo also senseless to call fpc regarding my posts.
Fairplay committee should look into ig cases where players fairplay violations happened.

You and other 2-3 players are one of the reasons why my initial thread was closed.
Instead of focusing on the evident violations we have to focus on my person which is irrelevant in this case.
Think about that the problem existed long time before I was playing as you can read from various fp comments (you can read in my closed thread) and even threads here in forum.

I did not throw any wrong accusation as the ban of 3 of the 7 named teams which were worked always closely with the 4 others shows.
Also me and others have given enough examples and explanation.
It doesn't make sense to present them over and over again to people like you who aren't able to process the given information.

Also the absence (or like Poke calls it "incompetence") of fpc in this matter doesn't help to move forward.
It takes 2 hours to open an investigation non-existent flooding of chat but it's not possible to start an investigation after 6 months with ca. 10 teams saying at least there is something.
Eye witness evidence has been discarded always very fast while this part of court decisions and decisions here in fairplay For e.g. in case of free team bugusing.
Just that he has the balls to admit it and not throwing sh*t at the person(s) who report it.

Last but not least I stand by everything what I wrote and I don't care if I am liked or hated for that by you or others.

Kill the messenger but you can't kill the message!

[High Flyer]

Thank you for your reply, I respect your complain about off topic so I wll end it here and anything no involving my races will be opened in a new thread.

Think of it like this, had you gone to someone and just posted the useful info only in forum, not C4F chat for race chat, then I would not have a problem at all. You wouldn't even here my name. I complain because it has become problematic. I complain because as much as somebody can can say:
"What if someone new joins the game and see this collusion in the race, they won't want to come back"
Has just as much chance of saying
"What if someome new joins, sees all the arguments in the chat, race or general, and thinks, 'this isn't for me'"

You have thrown accusations, spammed chat and taunted with it and other things. Let me show you:

TeamSWE<01:27>: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qqi9F ... MF04WdRt1b
TeamSWE<01:11>: 94 aux with 90ish riders in his wheel stay so far behind that coro easily wins

Something that A: Should've been posted to forum by you, not by you in chat and then by Luques in forum. And B:, shouldve been looked at more carefully that just posting what you saw.

TeamSWE<00:50>: aux...coro pulled you so nice but you are still not able to sprint properly

No context, just something put out in chat for seemingly no reason. Taunting

TeamSWE<10:28>: 6.12.2018,24 Uhr : Jaco - Quepos: HC Bergetappe 1. 00:00:00 Valerio Platini (Coroncina) 2. 00:00:26 LuisMario ValleGomez (Auxilium Torino) 3. 00:00:40 Emilio Trujillo (Auxilium Torino) 4. 00:01:06 Renzo Beccafumi (Coroncina) 5. 00:01:06 Nicola Boggia (Coroncina)

Just posting race result in chat. No relation to case. No context. Taunting to try and get a reaction.

TeamSWE<16:48>: 2 new Italian teams yesterday and today created - coincidence? hmmm
TeamSWE<13:45>: Aux maybe put more effort in creating new multies

Outright calling out 2 teams simply from joining and essential accusing them of being multis DAYS after they join. Awful welcome. If i saw this I wouldn't want to race again either.

TeamSWE<23:17>: i don't need to translate to know aux is whinin

Jumped into a conversation not even about you in a language you didn't even speak, taunting to try and get a reaction. Once again in public chat for no reason.

TeamSWE<10:45>: did i call you "little turd" or say "he story of his life, even his birth was a loss."? or was this donkey calling me
TeamSWE<10:49>: and "The story of his life, even his birth was a loss."?
TeamSWE<10:49>: how i changed "little turd"
TeamSWE<10:52>: what is untrue about you saying about me "The story of his life, even his birth was a loss."?
TeamSWE<10:52>: what is untrue about you calling me "little turd"?
TeamSWE<10:51>: TeamSWE<10:49>: what is out of context?TeamSWE<10:49>: and "The story of his life, even his birth was a loss."?TeamSWE<10:49>: how i changed "little turd"
TeamSWE<12:10>: what is untrue about you saying about me "The story of his life, even his birth was a loss."?
TeamSWE<12:10>: what is untrue about you calling me "little turd"?

Stemming from this whole case. Chat spam from you vs Donkey even though you have a thread opened up about it.

And in forums:

btw check "Amateurteam": is it "clean" or not?

No context, no reasoning. No separate thread. Just outright in public asks for a check when could've been done privately with a reason.

Maybe we should give this one a little UP?

No context, no reason. Just spam. Done several times in the past aswell with other threads where you suddenly spoke in them

______________________

There is so much all linked to this big whole case. You're so wrapped up in it that you are unwilling to change the way you make your arguments. Even if they are spam, annoying or usefulness.

Twice in my replys to you i never once mentioned whether or no ti think they are colluding yet you have brought it up as if I have. You do more harm than good. You didn;t even get Doria and co banned. It was an VPN idea that has been brought up many times over the years:

Date: Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:21 pm in an FPC thread.

Another suggestion: implement a new way to control and catch multi teams players! Nowadays, you can easily, with a single computer, play in the same time several teams with different IPs... (for example, VPN attached to a browser and not to an internet connexion exist, are free, and easy to use)
Something is probably to seek in this way...

As well as Melange and donkey in the past, way before you even started as a team.

Last but not least I stand by everything what I wrote and I don't care if I am liked or hated for that by you or others.
Kill the messenger but you can't kill the message!

That was all you need to say. That you won't change the way you do things. That you think I even attempting to "kill the message".

I'm not attacking Mangahn who is on the same side as you.
I'm not attacking free who is on the same side as you.
I'm not attacking Idéfix who is on the same side as you.
I'm not attacking Fanta who is on the same side with you.

Because they can construct an argument.
Because they are picking their moments to speak.
Because they have raced enough to know weird from normal.
Because they can explain why a scenario is suspicious.

[scorpsche]

Only thing you do is disturbing the origin purpose of Mangahn's thread with a lots of colorful out of context statements / quotes.
We can discuss everything but not there.
Imo last 3 posts from you clearly not related to this thread but rather to attack me on personal level.
I also tried to report this but since Roby is forum admin...you know the result.

[Mangahn]

Shame on you. You all. (Non english text, Sorry Coro. I´m not able to translate this by myself).

Euer Versuch, dass dem Thread zugrunde liegende Sachthema zu zerreden bzw. ignorieren ist wieder einmal gelungen.

Das das Vorgehen der beiden nur durch Indizien belegt werden kann, und das diese Indizien nicht immer eindeutig sind, ist unbestritten. Das im jeweiligen Einzelfall recht oft auch eine gegenteilige Auslegung möglich ist, also eine pro Coro und Aux, liegt in der Natur der Sache.
Die Summe der Indizien und das immer wieder gleiche Vorgehen sollte den meisten normalsterblichen reichen um es als Beweis gelten zu lassen.
Daher auch das überambitionierte Vorgehen SWE´s.

Mir ist nicht ganz klar, warum nicht einfach offen argumentiert wird?

Ein einfaches: die beiden folgen den Fairplay-Regeln. Sie machen das Beste für Ihr Team. Natürlich ist es für das jeweilige Team sinnvoll alles für das jeweils andere Team zu tun. Weil sie sicher sein können, so am Ende gemeinsam stärker zu sein, als wenn sie nur für sich allein fahren würden.

Vor einem Jahrzehnt hies es mal, dass Absprachen offen im Chat zu erfolgen haben.
Mann könnte natürlich zugunsten Coro und Aux annehmen, dass sie sich so blind verstehen, dass keine Absprachen notwendig sind, ich mag es aber nicht ganz glauben.^^

Ich habe neulich Gipfelstürmer gesittet und Free Team war mit ihm Rennen. Wir wollten beide das selbe. Wir haben beide einen offenen Messenger neben dem Rennen her offen gehabt. Hätten wir ihn benutzt, wäre das Rennen deutlich positiver für uns geendet. Wir haben es nicht getan. Obwohl es definitiv das Beste für unsere Teams gewesen wäre.
Alle Indizien weisen darauf hin, dass dieses Gentlemen Agreement nicht von allen Abendteams geteilt wird.

Was will das FCP? Was wollen die geehrten Verteidiger von Coro und Aux? Das alle den selben Mist machen?

Nach der offensichtlichen Nutzung von Multies gab es keine erkennbare Strafe für die Teams, die davon profitiert haben. Diese Teams fahren weiterhin ausgesprochen unrealistisch. Nicht immer, aber immer wieder.

Wenn ihr das so wollt, dann sagt es verdammt nochmal offen.