La Franco Belge 14:00 team attack

[flockmastoR]

Hello

there is a team attack in our group for red maybe:

Km: 16, Steigung: 0

Km: 15, Steigung: -1

Km: 14, Steigung: -1

Km: 13, Steigung: 0

Km: 12, Steigung: 1

Km: 11, Steigung: 0

Km: 10, Steigung: -3

Km: 9, Steigung: -5

Km: 8, Steigung: -1

Bergwertung 4. Kategorie:
1.Teddy Rinner (YU GI): 3
2.Frank Schmitz (YU GI): 2
3.Titida Mourre (Tulpengeneral): 1

Km: 7, Steigung: 4

500 bis zum Ziel

450 bis zum Ziel

400 bis zum Ziel

350 bis zum Ziel

300 bis zum Ziel

250 bis zum Ziel

200 bis zum Ziel

150 bis zum Ziel

100 bis zum Ziel

50 bis zum Ziel

Km: 6, Steigung: 2

Km: 5, Steigung: 2

Km: 4, Steigung: 1

Km: 3, Steigung: -1
Dean Price (Allstars United) attackiert
Marissa Lopard (Gaurain Rx) geht mit
Kenton Zabaneh (Allstars United) attackiert
Jean Petitjean (Gaurain Rx) geht mit

Km: 2, Steigung: 2
Alberto Coster (YU GI) attackiert
Titida Mourre (Tulpengeneral) geht mit
Frank Schmitz (YU GI) attackiert
Teddy Rinner (YU GI) attackiert

Km: 1, Steigung: 0

it's about YU GI he attacked with 3 and first rode with Rinner till km 17 after that he rode with Schmitz and dropped Rinner

[flockmastoR]

Allstars United: thx for playing guys... i am done
Equipe Mathematique: but you still continue your unfair action
Allstars United: i can not get the cheater and so i dont get any red points
Equipe Mathematique: gaurain did you tell buhmann that your team name is written differently for many riders
Allstars United: there is no later since there is nothing for me to ride for
WhereStheBlueLake: Not now Allstars, sorry, but later maybe
YU GI: thanks Equipe Mathematique
YU GI: ok, at least it's clear explanation as I understand better
Allstars United: das habt ihr ja echt toll eingefädelt
Equipe Mathematique: and you profited from Rinner (he did tempo for 15km) so you took advantage of your unfair action
WhereStheBlueLake: et là, c'est clairement ce que tu as fait
YU GI: scandal*
WhereStheBlueLake: ben quand pn enfreint les règles, on prend des amendes
Equipe Mathematique: but 3 riders on one km is forbidden
Equipe Mathematique: its not a problem if the attack comes in 2 kms (on rider km1, 2 riders km 2)
YU GI: Therefore, I saw several turns are this maneuver and nobody cried sacndale
Allstars United: so blue lake, really nothing?
Equipe Mathematique: YU GI this will get fined for sure
WhereStheBlueLake: là, tu vas ramasser mon garçon
Allstars United: yeah, tell them how i like my red jersey
Tulpengeneral: flocke do you report?
Allstars United: somebody thinks he is soo smart
Allstars United: lol
rexon: first for 100000 km now its time
Equipe Mathematique: now schmitz is riding so you have to drop coster
YU GI: ok
WhereStheBlueLake: là tu as attaqué avec 3
WhereStheBlueLake: c'est interdit... Laisse tomber un coureur, tu ne peux attaquer qu'avec 2 coureurs au cours d'un même km
Allstars United: brakes are important, its okay
rexon: hi cant be there for the finish sry i get new brakes for my car
tokahana: funny such small field but lol
Equipe Mathematique: -n
Allstars United: it doesnt matter, you cheat
Allstars United: what is so hard to get?
YU GI: it's for red jersey, not to the stage
Equipe Mathematique: schmitz back or you will get finned
WhereStheBlueLake: Non, tu ne peux pas, c'est interdit par les règles.
Tulpengeneral: let schmitz fall back to the peloton
YU GI: mais ça s'est deja vu pour aller ecrocher le maillot rouge n'est pas?
Equipe Mathematique: you accepted fair play rules and you broke one of them
WhereStheBlueLake: Tu ne peux pas attaquer avec plus de 2 coureurs le même km, c'est interdit.
Allstars United: nice breaking rules for red
Tulpengeneral: yes
YU GI: team attck?
WhereStheBlueLake: YU GI laisse descendre un gars, c'est pas correct
Equipe Mathematique: you have to let fall one rider
Equipe Mathematique: team attack, its not allowed to attack with 3 riders at 1 km
WhereStheBlueLake: teamattack?
Tulpengeneral: team attack
Equipe Mathematique: cycling 4 freaks
Tulpengeneral: sagt der mathematiker
Equipe Mathematique: hi freaks
Tulpengeneral: Titten
tokahana: hello
YU GI: hi all
WhereStheBlueLake: Hi all

he seems to understand but he is still continuing in front

[Allstars United]

I was chasing the group for the red jersey.
When I got to 7 seconds he switched the rider in Tempo and fall back with the puller.
I lost any mountain points due to this action, every other rider had not so far shown any intrests in red.

now its a completely different fight and he is still in the front with two riders.

[Eagle]

Km: 64, Steigung: 0
Hans Adam (YU GI) attackiert
Juan Cotumba (nessundorma) geht mit
Alberto Coster (YU GI) attackiert
Kenton Zabaneh (Allstars United) geht mit
Bernie Slaven (Allstars United) schafft es nicht mitzugehen
Jean Petitjean (Gaurain Rx) geht mit
Boasson Hagen (YU GI) attackiert


2nd teamattack in one tour. All riders were in a group

[Allstars United]

so, how is the procedure now?
I just want to know if he can keep his achievements to know if team attacks pay off eventually

[lesossies]

so, how is the procedure now?
I just want to know if he can keep his achievements to know if team attacks pay off eventually

5 FC teams have allready taken their decisions.

[auxilium torino]

Really sad to say, but the decision of the comitee is that team attac is not unfair, you give a little fine...

bad decision, destroy the game, Thanks!

[team fl]

bad decision, destroy the game, Thanks!

And I thought the sprint would have done that already according to you.

Anyway, maybe the FC could give us an (official) statement here.

[flockmastoR]

Is this a fucking joke?

1) clear team attack
2) didn't drop a rider or just at the time this rider already made more than 10km of red tempo
3) profited from the team attack, stole points for red
4) after he said he understands what was the problem he did a teamattack the day after again

So what are you smoking there in the FPK?

PS: ok i am in there too, aux should think about what he says to people here in the forum. telling that other FP members think its not unfair is just bullshit

[Kaju]

he´ll get a fine for sure, we only think that a ban is a to hard punishment for a teamattack...an of course, if he do it again we can speak about a harder punishment...

[Allstars United]

a Ban wasn´t what anyone demanded.
but a "fine". That is ridicolous.


Taking away the red jersey and give it to who is honestly considered the winner of the red jersey (not pointing at anybody, but i guess thats me ) and taken away all proftis from this tour plus a fine. THAT is a punishment.

But in that case ok. The next time when it´s usefull, I´ll totally team attack. Punishment doesn´t seem only nearly that effective than the profits.

[luques]

I can speak for my decision.

1) Why not ban? I think that ban is worth only in 3 cases, a) multi-teams, b) strong teams with good palmares, c) paying managers.
In case a) just to do some cleaning, in case b) because a team will think much before see his team destroyed, in the c) case because i think that every guy that pays wants his account back.
In almost all other cases you can create a new team (look at PTT case). Yu Gi doesn't seem to me to fit any of the three points.

2) The punition: i tried to calculate his winnings post-tour which should be around 114k (can be a bit wrong if he came second/third in other jerseys but i don't find this data in the results), can't evaluate during the days. And give a fine as his winnings post-tour would be 0. But obviously about the amount of the fine we can discuss, argue and find an agreement. Another thing, i think that as Allstar said would be nice if leso can change the result of GPM jersey, eliminate from YU GI palmares as a disqualification.

[team fl]

I know that every decision has to be finally processed by Buhmann or leso. But can the FC also advise them about other things than penalties? Like the palmares thing? Or is that completely up to the admins?

[lesossies]

Ok The punition will be a fine maybe 200000 or more.
For the jersey I´ll see if I have time to do it.

But we need for the future a time ban !
one week ban had been a better punition than a 200.000 fine
minimal 1 week
maximal 100 weeks
I´ll speak about it with Buhmann

[luques]

But we need for the future a time ban !
one week ban had been a better punition than a 200.000 fine

Leso here i don't agree.

I try to enter in the mind of someone who get a time ban. Especially this kind of guy, not a multi, not a paying user.

If he sees his account banned for 3-4 weeks, he will in the most of the cases create a transition team waiting for the unban of the other. When the other will be unbanned he will have two teams... after ok he could use only one because no time for the other, maybe we could find his transition team before the unban, many things can happen... but surely by giving him a time-ban you are giving him an excuse to make a transition team and as consequence you are creating a "potential multi".

What i think would be the best punition? DQ from the Tour/race + fine or penalty points/time + fine, exactly how it happens in reality (for example when there is a sprint and a sprinter do something unfair).
The problem is that it requires a fast decision, and i'm not sure that the jury is so fast.

Otherwise for non-paying user another possible punition can be giving some race point of penalization or set them to 0 (i mean someone who has 15-20 race point make him lose all). At least he will spend more time on the game, and he will tend less to create another team.

In other cases (paying user, multi) the ban or time ban is the best solution.

[gaurain rx]

a Ban wasn´t what anyone demanded.
but a "fine". That is ridicolous.


Taking away the red jersey and give it to who is honestly considered the winner of the red jersey (not pointing at anybody, but i guess thats me ) and taken away all proftis from this tour plus a fine. THAT is a punishment.

But in that case ok. The next time when it´s usefull, I´ll totally team attack. Punishment doesn´t seem only nearly that effective than the profits.

Mostly agree with Allstars... But ok, unfortunately not really sure we can give the red to anybody else though.

Even if a one week ban wouldn't be bad too! So, profits and palmares taken away + Fine + Little ban looks like a nice combo.

[luques]

After asking YU GI some explanation he told me:

YU GI: Luques: pour vous repondre je dirais que je visais le maillot rouge lors du tour precedent , j'ai attaqué a tour de role avec 3 coureurs mais à des km differents. une fois devant personne ne voulait m'aider à roulé donc je me suis extirper avec mes trois coureurs après 65 km, c'est à ce moment là qu'on me l'a fait savoir et j'ai laissé se decrocher un coureur 2 km après pour etrre dans la légalité

I asked him to come in the forum, maybe he can understand how things work and that fair play is important, hope he will do

[deuseburger]

If he sees his account banned for 3-4 weeks, he will in the most of the cases create a transition team waiting for the unban of the other. When the other will be unbanned he will have two teams... after ok he could use only one because no time for the other, maybe we could find his transition team before the unban, many things can happen... but surely by giving him a time-ban you are giving him an excuse to make a transition team and as consequence you are creating a "potential multi".

or to be more precise:

a "potential multi".

i am afraid that the wicked ptt point of view is making its way to the com. ... and this view is utterly nonsense (i am not sure the quoted is using it in that way, but woha i can already see people like ptt interpreting it in their own twisted mind-set.)

so to state this clear, the creation of a second team per definition (rules) is creating a multi and its nowhere in the rules that getting a team bannend is changing that fact. so in the context of the quoted text above this means the fictive player becomes a multi as soon as he creates the second team, and NOT only if he continues to use both teams after the unban. the very term "transition team" is orwell´s newspeak, simply hiding the fact that the transition team is and can be nothing else than a multiaccount...

quote from the general rules:

4. It is prohibited to create several accounts of play. Multiaccounts will be dissolved.

cheers deuse...

[luques]

Thanks deuse for the correction, i fully agree with you.

Just a couple of correction to my text, when i am speaking about his team and his transition team, i am just doing it to point out the two different teams (would be the same by calling them Team A and Team B, wanted to call it transition team just to remind the PTT case).

When i am speaking about a potential multi, i mean that after the ban he can become a multi (by creating another account) or just be fair and wait for the un ban and not that the transition team can become a multi.

Having a transition team means having 2 accounts, so it's a multi case.

[Robyklebt]

I think Luques is aware of that, he even mentioned it in his post actually. The way I see it he just took a pragmatic approach.
Newish team, gets his team banned: What does he do? I see 3 main possibilities
1) He waits until his ban is over an rides again. Good man.
2) He stops, gives up for on the game. Not good for the game. He's a potential future paying customer.
3) He makes a new team. Then changes back later or maybe even more likely just keeps the new team.

So I agree with Luques that for newish teams a fine is much better than a ban. And let's not pretend it doesn't hurt. A 200'000 fine doesn't hurt me, yes. NOt now anyway. But a new team? There are almost no more group 2 races. September 2013: 13 times group 2. September 2012: 63 (IF the stats are right, somehow there seem to be way less races anyway?) So even newcomers play basically group 1 nonstop. And almost always there will be big teams around. They earn shitloads of money often, yep. The new guys not, for them it's much harder to earn 200k, give somebody with around 100 races, probably 95+ of them in group one a 200k fine... he'll feel it. We won't. The main goal though shouldn't really be to punish him, but to reform him. Bad boy, team attack isn't allowed, don't do it again. If THAT goal is reached it doesn't matter if he got a 2 week ban or if leso sent him a box of candies, the important thing is he knows the rules, follows them and everybody probably is happy.

So... the celestial ape says: Very often a fine is just fine. The "race points" idea actually is interesting too. But let's not overdo it either.

No real clue about this case though.

[Allstars United]

That you don´t have a real clue is pretty obvious.

We told and informed him about team attacks the first time an he said he would have understood (even though he was still just riding for red points) and just little later he does it again. He knows the rule already, so that "it´s only important he learns" thing ist out.

And taht 200k thing is just one of the greatest jokes ever.
You guys do realise that he made just about 80k with those team attacks and winning red?!

[Robyklebt]

So he made 80k
And loses 200k
According to Adam Giant that's -120k

So what exactly do you want? Money and red? Ah, ok...

[lesossies]

He loose his red jersey and got a 400.000 fine !
It was a FC decision.

[Rockstar Inc]

He loose his red jersey and got a 400.000 fine !
It was a FC decision.

sounds good

[Allstars United]

but you won´t give it somebody else i guess?

At least the punishment sounds somehow fair.