New energy system

[Buhmann]

As suggested since month, we intend now to integrate a new energy system.

At the moment we only one energy. The problem is, that eary attacks, sprints and so on have big effects for the end of the race, although the rider does not make anything the whole race.
A second problem is, that short races are stressfuller for the riders than long races, because the rider lost only very few energy beacuse of the distance, but much energy because of the tempo.
Robyklebt and some other veterans will have more reason for a new energy system.

We are designing at the moment a system with internally(!) three energy types. You see like now only 1 energy, so external nothing change!
Type 1: It is not possible to get this lost energy back during a race. Only after with the regeneration.
Type 2: Like now: With helper you can get it back.
Type 3: Regenerates (relative fast) automatically.

Example (with random numbers): If your rider attacks (100 enery), he will lost 0 energy of type 1, 30 of type 2 and 70 of type 3. So if you attack very early in a race, the rider will retrieve 70 back after a while.

Understand? That is the way we want to try. The system is a little bit new, but i think the races will become more realistic and not so calculable. If it does not work we change it again or switch to the old one.

[Team ABC-Polsat]

like cycling manager^^

[Pirkio]

this was my old post i think i proposed 2 but 3 is better anyway

Great Buh, Great Leso. If you want to test it I give my disponibility to race some fake race with other players

[Buhmann]

like cycling manager^^

I don´t play any other cycling manager. Only for years i tried a demo.
But a big difference should be that this energy system is complety internally. Externally nothing will change. You see the energy of the rider and the rider is such strong as you see. Only how you fast you will get back the energy is hidden.

[auxilium torino]

ok, but what is with an energie counter for very short race(like ITT for example)?
a little bit tactic should be welcome in ITT, at moment only at 50+ km.

[NicoVanarlo]

Type 1: It is not possible to get this lost energy back during a race. Only after with the regeneration.
Type 2: Like now: With helper you can get it back.
Type 3: Regenerates (relative fast) automatically.

Two type isn't enough?

[Buhmann]

Only this type has some disadvantages. But i post it here to discuss.

[Hansa]

Gibts das auchnochmal auf Deutsch für die die das so nicht komplett verstehen?

[Buhmann]

Wenn es fertig ist wird es auf jeden Fall auch auf Deutsch in die News kommen.

[Lizard]

After reading for three times I got it. Yes, great idea. Totally support it!

[Pirkio]

so 2 or 3?

[Buhmann]

The feedback of the test races was not very big and i have not much time at the moment. But the 3th energy type is complicated anyway.

[ELITE TEAM]

I would like to test the first one ...
Because when the 3rd option is active regeneration will be useless and it is one of the biggest factor in giving price and salary ...

[Robyklebt]

That's a bit the danger and why the third type isn't advancing.... although actually it wouldn't change to much compared to now, the reg is fairly useless most of the time.

Anyway: the first type basically is:
- weather: Until now the weather mostly hit the helpers, not the leaders. Leaders were still easily loadable unless it was winter weather, and even then 950 instead of 1000, while the support riders were at 550.... Weather "hit" all riders almost (a small part will stay reloadable) equally. So with bad weather the leaders too will suffer.
- distance: Every km a small non reloadble amount of energy is taken. Getting more and more, so while it's x at km 1 it's 20x at km 300 or so... Reason here... right now short stages cost way more energy then long ones for leaders. NOt for helpers, but for leaders. Low tempo almost the whole race... short races are simulated well enough, high intensity, high tempo all the way, sprinters arrrive with 900 to the sprint sometimes.. IN a 250 race with 990. With this change they will still arrive to the sprint in a very short race with 900 (in the beginning it's really really small), but around 900 too in a long race.
- mountain: On climbs part will not be reloadable as well, depending only on the percentage of the climb and the climbing skill of the rider. A 90 climber will lose less than a 46 climber (but the differences finally are relatively small)

With these 3 things the leaders won't arrive with close to 1000 to the finish like now anymore. This energy is not reloadable during the race, after the race it's part of the usual regeneration. So with that reg becomes more important. If it's too important, easy to change the numbers, the effect won't be as big as now... right now if Buh made mountain or weather harder, it would hit the helpers much more, then the difference helpers-leaders becomes much bigger, or smaller if he makes it easier. With this the helper-leader span won't be affected to such an extent if Buh changes the numbers of one of those 3 things.

nr 2 is basically the same as now.

Nr 3 is kind of a problem... because yes, as Elite says, the risk is there that it almost nullifies the changes that nr 1 brings... The original idea behind nr 3 is: the span between active and inactive riders is too big sometimes. One km tempo with helper x in certain races is suicide. You just lose him then. After a sieb you can't ride 1 km to see how it looks if you have a good situation in front, either you ride and then continue, or you don't... 1 km, ok, no good, stop... well, the rider is "lost". Or attacks, an early attack, ok, no good, stop... again, rider is lost if he attacked red.. with green.. ok, kind of still half ok, but... Same for sprints. Basically it's
- Attack and follow
- Sprint
- Tempo
That could be partially automatically reloaded. But the problem is... how to do it in a way that doesn't give unlimited energy?
Attack/Sprint is fairly easy probably... just make it x% automatically reloadable. Finished, done.
Tempo more difficult, if you make it automatically reloaded, you really risk having too much energy, and the changes from nr 1 "lost". Anybody has an idea for nr 3?

[NoPikouze]

The feedback of the test races was not very big and i have not much time at the moment. But the 3th energy type is complicated anyway.

As far as I could see it was pretty nice (regarding the energy). Not perfect, maybe some values must be adjusted. But interesting.

HArd to analyze the sprint system with those races. Did not look bad, but to check that you must have 100+ races to check everything...

[Buhmann]

Thursday, Friday and maybe the days after that tehre will be again test races with old riders. So that we can maybe integrate the new things for the TdF.

[Radunion]

It is difficult to asses with limited information. Applying the 3rd form of energy for tempo is somehow risky. You have to be very careful that it is not better to change the riders very often (ride 1 km, regenerate 3 km, ride 1km...), but for sprint and attacking it is very good.

Additionally this form of energy offers some opportunities for future changes. For example a significant loss of energy for weaker riders if the tempo is high uphill, which can be regenerated again on the downhill. This would finally make a difference between longer and shorter hills.

Thursday, Friday and maybe the days after that tehre will be again test races with old riders. So that we can maybe integrate the new things for the TdF.

I am not sure whether the start of the tour is the right time to make changes. Everybody should have the opportunity to test the new features in less important races before. In my opinion you should implement it next weekend if you want the changes active for the tour. This gives everybody the chance to cope with the changes and to find possible problems.

[Rockstar Inc]

I am not sure whether the start of the tour is the right time to make changes. Everybody should have the opportunity to test the new features in less important races before. In my opinion you should implement it next weekend if you want the changes active for the tour. This gives everybody the chance to cope with the changes and to find possible problems.

+1

the few test races are too less speakable imo...mostly only 4,5 teams rode the different races...

[NoPikouze]

Actually i dont like the idea of changing for the tour de france!
Why? Because there is a quite big impact on energy/reg, and the teams are not ready for it. Tour is one of the biggest goals of the year, teams are build for it. Dont make such a change now. After the tour seems ok, no more big objective like that.

[sylvainmeteo]

Actually i dont like the idea of changing for the tour de france!
Why? Because there is a quite big impact on energy/reg, and the teams are not ready for it. Tour is one of the biggest goals of the year, teams are build for it. Dont make such a change now. After the tour seems ok, no more big objective like that.

+1, please don't change before TDF, I think we could introduce it for August with his numerous small tours

[Robyklebt]

I'm 100% for changing stuff before the TdF 2012.

Why? Because I know Buhmann. If that's the goal, it might be ready for November 12. More likely sometime in 13

But ok, changing a short while before a big goal obviously is not perfect. BUT not a catastrophe either. Some managers know more than others, yes, but none of them has prepared their teams with more reg, and the biggest change would be (hopefully) that reg is more important. So in the end even an introduction before the TdF wouldn't be impossible. Yes, some teams that have reg by chance would profit, some that don't have it would be penalized. Not perfect just before the TdF. But in the end that's RSF life...Then 1 week, 10 days, 2 weeks before the TdF full change would be ok.

But.. IMO it won't be ready for the TdF anyway.

And rather than speak of when, the what would be more interesting. Like Radunions post:

It is difficult to asses with limited information. Applying the 3rd form of energy for tempo is somehow risky. You have to be very careful that it is not better to change the riders very often (ride 1 km, regenerate 3 km, ride 1km...), but for sprint and attacking it is very good.

100% agreed

Additionally this form of energy offers some opportunities for future changes. For example a significant loss of energy for weaker riders if the tempo is high uphill, which can be regenerated again on the downhill. This would finally make a difference between longer and shorter hills.

95% agreed. The missing 5% because I don't understand "this form of energy".. .which one? But the last sentence for sure is one of the long time goals. Higher loss of energy in uphills for weaker riders if the tempo is high: Not enough, because what often happens is that the weaker ones are dropped and then go up slower and end up losing the same amount as the ones with higher mountain skills. That's why the unreloadable one, regardless of tempo will be there. Where a 46 climber will lose more than a 74 climber, even only looking at the tempo the loss would be the same. Problem with this right now is that it's not really a big difference, probably will need some fighting "reform" change as well.

[Radunion]

I meant the quick reloadable thingy, I thought this is clear in the context. And this has to be dependent on the tempo, a 85 should loose the same amount for riding the hill flat out (following the tempo of another 85) as a 50 mountain sprinter that is paced by his flat helper. For the slowly and non-regenerative energy a tempo independent part makes sense, but it should still be an advantage to let my 74 mountain time trialist drop back to my 65 mountain guys and pace him (hopefully) back in the valley against the classics riders.

The effect I was thinking about in my post was short term, in a 10 - 15 km rather flat mountain (6 - 7 %) you can easily follow with 5 less mountain. In a new system the rider in tempo will lose more non/hard regenerative energy, but the following rider will loose more quick regenerative energy and might have to fight, or is dropped near the top of the mountain. So at the top the pacing rider will have more energy, but after the downhill he will have less, similar the the levels we have now. On the other hand following on 1 km climbs should be easier.

[Robyklebt]

Ok, new idea. they usually confuse me at first..

Let me check if I got it now:

Right now in the mountains we have: Normal reloadable energy that is lost in mountains depending on tempo.

New in plan:

Same as above
tempo independent non reloadable energy according to skills (and difficulty)

Your proposal is:

Add to those 2 (or cut the one we have now instead?): quick reloadable energy loss depending on tempo. Effect: short hill-mountain difference. By losing energy, and regetting it the effect is only there for that one climb.

Correct?

Interesting... for the difference short mountain- long mountain that could work. If it's that what you mean of course. It's kind of a "fighting" without "fighting" but automatic energy back thing, highly interesting. Ah, one thing I want to add... 4 and 5 need to become MORE siebable somehow. Right now 4 is unsiebable, 5 for somebody with a bit of flat too.... On short climbs of course that's ok, but on long ones.... let' say 10x4.... some guys really should be dropped after a while. See the col du Lautaret in reality... On the other hand on 0-10-0 less people should be dropped than now... Try to integrate that too! Ok, for the 4-5 simply it would have to become more siebable, then just work with that new idea of yours and classical fighting. For the 10... mmh.. no real clue, harder to be dropped? Ah... enough, you do that.

[Robyklebt]

Oh, one more post... except Buhmann ignore it. Or send him PNs until he does it:

Thursday, Friday and maybe the days after that tehre will be again test races with old riders. So that we can maybe integrate the new things for the TdF.

Is the palmares bug out? I REALLY REALLY don't want more J-Ro/Edgar/Sitzmann/Duculescu/whoever palmares inscriptions destroying my virgin palmares for May. If you want to record the senior races wins, do that in a separate place, but NOT in the normal palmares place!!!!!!!!! I suspect it's not out... so correct it, before we have more races.

[flockmastoR]

Oh, one more post... except Buhmann ignore it. Or send him PNs until he does it:

Thursday, Friday and maybe the days after that tehre will be again test races with old riders. So that we can maybe integrate the new things for the TdF.

Is the palmares bug out? I REALLY REALLY don't want more J-Ro/Edgar/Sitzmann/Duculescu/whoever palmares inscriptions destroying my virgin palmares for May. If you want to record the senior races wins, do that in a separate place, but NOT in the normal palmares place!!!!!!!!! I suspect it's not out... so correct it, before we have more races.

+1