December Tour 2011 talk page (not presentation)

[Robyklebt]

OK
The rules were maybe not very clear defined.
and as the first statement it this thread was:

Tour limits:
10-14 days with maximal 1 rest day.
max. 1 day with half-races.

and we didn´t make a new thread for December 2011
with the adapted rules:

Tour limits:
10-14 days with 1 rest day.
max. 1 day with half-races.

I´ll acccept the tours with 1 or no rest day with max. 14 days.
The teams will decide in the poll if they want a rest day or not.

If the designer should decide the times and days of his tour he could decide the rest day.

And I have the next question: From when to when will the Dec tour be?

[LENNAO]

I hope not from Christmas to Sylvester - that would be very useless ^^ so i think at the first half of December

[Rockstar Inc]

usually christmas-silvester is blocked with the world championchips and some "christmas" races

[Pirkio]

like the monopoli - monopoli

[Gipfelstuermer]

When we can open December tour presentation?

Last year it started in October. So should the first "artist" post its presentation on Oct 1, 12:00 pm?

[LENNAO]

I hope so, because i think it will take 2 days to read Robys presentation alone
So i think Roby will be the first, but if he put his presentation in too late, we'll never can read his till the december tour starts

So Roby, i'm very excited about yours - maybe i take 2 days holiday for that

[NoPikouze]

I will vote for myself anyway, don't bother writing stuff

[Robyklebt]

2 tours, cool.

Hope we have some people commenting this year. Likes, dislikes etc.

[Gipfelstuermer]

2 tours, cool.

Well, I guess there will be some more. At least yours and mine

Hope we have some people commenting this year. Likes, dislikes etc.

I'm a little afraid afterwards you will dissect and destroy my application. Nevertheless I'll say something about the first applications:

Honshu, 13 stages, 13 days. Oh, or is there a rest day? I don't know, you don't know, even sylvain doesn't know. Okay, that's only the rest day... The Race takes place in Japan, very nice. In 2009 I participated with a tour in China, so I know, it's not easy to find nice routes in Asia. Ok, Japan is surely more industrialized in some regions. And, what is more important, its climate is different. Especially in the north of Honshu a lot of snow is possible in December. So Tokyo would be the maximum in reality, even there you would have to fear the weather. Okay... it's a fantasy race.
Overall many stages look quite interesting. Lots of hills, not easy for sprinters (a thing I really like). However, I fear you overrated these hills. That means a lot of money, yes, but I think it's too much. For example stage 6 with 10 hills plus 2 sprints By the way, a rest day could truly be useful. On the first 6 stages the riders will have to do a lot of kilometers, then the TT is no complete regeneration and then there are the mountains.
Balance between TT and Mountain riders looks good. Especially those (nearly) 80-80 monsters will have fun. Some stages look extremely exciting. I really like 5, 9 and 10!
My result: Some excellent stages, but overrated hills and danger of black ice in the north

Course de la Paix (CdlP) 13 stages + definitely one rest day. And I really appreciate your concept. I think the CdlP always was an very important race for this region and for cycling in general. But I can't remember, that it ever started in December, also a little bit dangerous for my riders. Yes, i know, it's a fantasy race. But then there's another point of criticism: CdlP was a real race. Be more creative with fantasy tours
Indeed you were creative with the stages. Okay, 1 and 12 look really boring: Good sprinter teams seem completely unbeatable. But that's ok, because they want their own stages and the other stages look exciting. The Time Trial isn't too easy and I love stage 7: great look, that promises exciting races. My only fear is, that we know the tour-winner after stage7. Personally I also like stages 9,10 and 11. They look like nice races. But it's always a long stage with nice hills and some downhill to the finish. Good team, good leader, good form: 3 Stage Wins for one guy, if the others have got as bad teams as mine
My result: Nice idea and concept, some beautiful stages, but no real fantasy tour and maybe the last beautiful stages become boring because of a strong leader and an early decision in GC.


Which one would I prefer? Well, let's wait for the other tours (especially mine ).

[NoPikouze]

My first opinion in a couple of separate remarks:

SM - Too many money on the road. Doesn't look like a GT. Is there any logic for the S and the KOMs ? (meaning: did he just put somethings in or did he calculate it in a certain way ?). GK favo not very clear yet. Although the problem with those fake-open-stages is that everything will be trusted by a monsterclassic, which is even more boring as by a climber... Of course, it depends on the group.
Oh and one veeeeryyyy bad thing: changing scale on every graphic!! WTF! Stage 4 is flat with 4 and 5% but it looks like a HC stage... Damnit, keep the same scale as much as possible.

Ibanesto - Starts with the german flag, pah! Stages 9 to 11 look quite nice. But i'm afraid that from 8 to 11 it's always the same arrival! Maybe more tomorrow, i'm tired now.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Dear el Galactico,

excellent choice, really really excellent. I had a look at your Vuelta America Central (VAC). At first I didn't believe my eyes, because you have chosen a region, which is similar to mine (not the same, only similar). On top of that, four of our stages have got the same finish :-O (not always the exact route, just the city).
I'm sure this is no coincidence, because central america is a brilliant region for the december tour. Nevertheless you could have taken a closer look at Costa Rica. There are even more nice roads. And I'm sure with your tour we will have longer transfers But I don't want to say more about that. Probably my opinion about VAC isn't objective enough.
Actually I wanted to wait some more days, but now it's definitely time to present my tour, the Pura Vida. Maybe someone with an more objective view will compare VAC and Pura Vida.

With best regards
Gipfelstuermer

PS: We could compare the exact data of the Irazú-climb. But at least it doesn't look too different =)

[el Galactico]

Really interesting yeah. Actually i'm only going through Costa Rica as it is only one of 7 countries in my tour. What do you mean by transfers? Except the transfer before the last stage i have transfers with max. 70 kms to the next start. This is not much more than 1 hour with the team bus. If it is what you meant
And you are right, there are really a hell of good roads in Central America. I could have easily made like 50 stages, it was really difficult to cut it down to 14 finally.
Tomorrow i will take a closer look on your creation. Now i am tired after 6 hours writing this presentation

[Gipfelstuermer]

Really interesting yeah. Actually i'm only going through Costa Rica as it is only one of 7 countries in my tour. What do you mean by transfers? Except the transfer before the last stage i have transfers with max. 70 kms to the next start. This is not much more than 1 hour with the team bus. If it is what you meant

If you've taken a look at it, it's perfect. I just wondered, how you could go through 7 countries. But it's logical: You've got two stages more. And VAC goes from south to north while Pura Vida is more like once around Costa Rica.
Okay, nice, already 4 tours presented. Will be an exciting competition this year.

[Robyklebt]

No need to worry Gipfel, I very likely will simply not comment any tours this year, except mine of course. Tired of being basically the only one writing something about other tours, positive or negative. Might be that I can't resist later on and do write something especially if others like you are more active, exchange of opinions, good...

[el Galactico]

I would be sad if you don't comment the other tours roby!!
My first opinion to the other tours is that they are all not bad but i think no Tour is a real candidate for the win as there is always something missing imo. Climate factor for honshu and cdlp for example, which is for me an important factor. Maybe mine isn't able to win the competition as well... Hmmm noooo surely my Tour will win easily.

Critics so far:
Honshu: weather, pure Fantasy. Like already said i think there is no chance for a Tour in Honshu in Dezember in Reality. Profiles are good, but the height scale is really confusing sometimes like Piko already said!

CdlP: climate! Idea is surely good, Profiles are not that interesting imo, Not my favorite i have to say!

Pura Vida: +for the Picture with the stages(how you do that?) Profiles are good, Lack of presenation, some more words would have been nice, nevertheless my favorite so far!

Surely behind VAC11

I thought about a Point System like roby did last year but if he wont do so it's maybe not that interesting for me as i cant compare it then.

More to come...

[iBanesto]

Two tours, same area, same roads?
Hilarious.

Don't really know yet what to say about Honshu, not sure what to think of it.

VAC, nice Volcano, but why on the day before the ITT? You say: "In the GC it should become very interesting as the favorites have to calculate how much power they can give on the king's stage so that they survive the time trial without losing all the time which they have maybe won one day before." You have to start the ITT with 1000 or as close to it as possible. The Irazu stage is a killer, you lose plenty of energy without even attacking (>6000 Hm?). Every attack from far out is a GC suicide, the favorites will have to ride defensive. It ruins a brillant stage.

Pura Vida, again Irazu here. Placed differently than in VAC, here everything is pointing towards, only finish on top, second to last day. Not sure if it's good to have it that late, because there are a couple of stages like Hojancha and Monte Verde before the Irazu where climbers need courage to attack and strength to stay away because it's long to the finish. Laguna Angostura and Tajo Alto better for climbers but still kind of the same. How do make those maps?

[Gipfelstuermer]

How do make those maps?

+for the Picture with the stages(how you do that?)

I've been working for a little newspaper, so I've got a few skills in Photoshop. Of course still it took some time. If somebody is really interested in it, I may explain how I did it exactly.

and roby: Ok, i think you are only challenging us. But I guess we'll get some feedback from you, maybe in a point system, maybe in a huge post. At least I hope we get some more feedback, by roby or by others

[iBanesto]

Ok, Honshu. Balanced tour, conservative tour. Has the same problem like CdlP: No superspectacular stages. It's a good tour still, but to win the competition you need to have three things:

1. Exotic setting. Why? Because Roby told so. I'd be happy to have a Tour of Siberia or anywhere else in the world where races usually don't take place. Just don't make yet another race in France, Italy or so with stages in the Alps. But Roby says: Has to be somewhere in the south where the weather is nice in december. He has been telling it for years and it worked. Now it is in people's brains. SPIH, Sheikh Tour.

2. Balance. You need to appeal to a broad range of voters, because after all, you have to win the poll. Put stages in for all kinds of different teams and your race becomes electable. Simple.

3. Spectacular stages. You need 2 or 3 stages that make your race stand out from the rest. Stages that you usually don't see in the other 11 months of the year, maybe execpt Los Andes. Sheikh Tour had a ridiculously long mountain time trial and a ridiculous mountain stage with 5000 Hm and no real downhills. SPIH had a ridiculously long TTT, don't remember the rest. The Eurotour 2008 had a stunning Schwarzwald stage. See the pattern? You need to go mad and wild sometimes to attract attention.


These are not my criteria for a good tour, but I think it's what you need to win. CdlP probably not exotic enough, Honshu quite exotic but maybe cold. Pura Vida and VAC have those spectacular volcano stages and balance seems quite alright on all applicants.

[sylvainmeteo]

I see the 2 others tours (central america), I really like Gipfel's tour, the TT is interesting also, 1 big uphill finish and interesting stages who called mountain stages (could be win by a 75/80), some flat stages for sprinters, looks ok
the Galacticos's tour is too mountainous, no really suspens for the winner of this tour... and there's few flat stages, sprinters teams won't really vote for this tour I think
I've the idea to do a finish at Fuji Yama Mountain for my tour, but this finish kill the suspens of my tour
Like a said before, I draw a tour for everyone, sprinters, classic riders and climbers
For the profiles, if you want I could edit it, but it's not really important
For the stage 4 I put flat, but I could also put middle mountain, what do you think? I should let flat or not? some sprinters could be siebed, especially after 220km, but still a little mass sprint for me

[el Galactico]

@ iban, i wanted to have at least some days where the riders wont start at 1000 on the next day. And this should not be a boring flat stage. It should be stages where it will be a fight for the GC. Stage 6 is really a killer but why should it be always usual to start with 1000 the next day? I think it could become very interesting to calculate how much power the others have and this will also affect the tt which could make it more interesting finally. Of course there is the danger of having a GC team which is easily able to control the last mountain but if not there may be a success by an early attack without losing too much of this time on the next day in the TT. Thats why i also made the TT not that long. My thought was that the managers have to well calculate what and how much they do on the first day. Of course there is always the possibility that it becomes a boring race controlled by 1 or 2 "Überteams" I think it is also a problem that in RSF you can lose more time in a TT than you can win in a mountain stage, which will affect my tour maybe. But all in all it was exactly my goal that this 2 stages follow each other. Maybe I had the wrong thoughts/hopes for this stages, but finally it always depends on what the teams do out of it. I think it is a potential highlight for strong managers (in tactics, so not me )

@ sylvain, you havent looked at my tour properly i guess??

I have 5 more or less clear sprint stages + 1 stage which is possible if there are strong sprint teams. I feared to have too much sprint stages and to easy ones...So please take a 2nd look at my tour
Too mountaineous? I leave it to you, but finally it shouldnt be a tour for classic riders to win the GC and for stages there a lot of chances to win...

[Robyklebt]

Hehe

iBans 3 points... partly agree, mostly
1, I think it helps, it's important for some people to have that "realism": infrastructure, climate, realisable. But that doesn't mean you HAVE to have it to win. We've actually had ZERO december tours who fulfilled this criteria. Balkan, cold, Eurotour cold, Spih not realistic, transfers every day, sometimes thousands of km, roads... no comment better. Sheyk, political situation.. not realisable as well. I'd say it HELPS to get extra votes if the climate, the infrastructure and all are there. But it isn't required to have to have a chance. 09 it was what, one vote for SPIH against Centoanni? Last year the other finalist was Kurdistan, weather-wise a catastrophe too.

2 yep

3 Probably yep.. but not even sure here too. the ultralong TT wasn't really the reason I think, it was more that LCB isn't active, cost him votes, and OLs tour was just really bad. Like really bad. But agree, something special helps, something eyecatching. From the name (SPIH and PR campaign), to the location (Saudi Arabia and Yemen, new for us), the history (Centoanni), special stages. Something that sets your tour apart from others. Even like OLs video from 2 years ago.

But you forgot 4

Profiles. We never had a high altitude winner. Why? IMO because then the profiles look much worse, put Sheyk and SPIHs profiles 1000 meters up and do they still win? I don't think so actually.

Comments about tours?

Ok, Honshu: No suspence. Ok a bit provocation since that seems SMs big sales argument. But looking at the stages the way the race will unfold is clear in almost every single stage. Show me the different groups and it will be fairly clear what will happen. Actually the most predictable tour so far. The one stage that doesn't seem to have a prewritten scenario is nr 10. There with the nonstop up and down it seems to offer different outcomes. the rest will be just no suspence at all, you know what will happen and when the decision will happen. Basically agree with NoPik.
The weather, I actually like the very cold thing. SM is consequent there, of course in december a tour in Honshu is not really realistic, up to 2000 meters, no way. But ok, it will be cold. Like the consequence.

CdlP: Like the presentation with the links... grrr, mine was written before, so I'm not copying! Miss the sprint stages somehow, I see only 3 actually. The concept is a redo of Centoanni, don't think it will work. Stage 7-10-11 the special stages that promise to be the highlights. Biggest weakness for me: Sprint, not enough AND 2 of the 3 flat stages at the end. at the very end. Then of course the location.

Will destroy the rest some other time.

[sylvainmeteo]

@ sylvain, you havent looked at my tour properly i guess??

I have 5 more or less clear sprint stages + 1 stage which is possible if there are strong sprint teams. I feared to have too much sprint stages and to easy ones...So please take a 2nd look at my tour
Too mountaineous? I leave it to you, but finally it shouldnt be a tour for classic riders to win the GC and for stages there a lot of chances to win...

Lol Sorry, nearly all your flat stages are in the start, sorry, but I was watching closely the 2nd part of your tour lol ^^
a good tour finally

[iBanesto]

Profiles, how is that a seperate point? It's included in point 3. High altitude makes spectacular stages look boring.
But I can shut up now, because you are here commenting on the tours opposed to what you said earlier. You could resist to write something for almost six hours, not bad, not bad,...
Bring on your tour you whimp!

[Robyklebt]

Grrr, no, don't shut up. I resist again now. Strong willed ape, impossible to break.
And I'll post my tour once I'm back home. Would have been posted at 0:01 if I had been there... need to start designing 2012 anyway!

[NoPikouze]

Design 2012 ? I thought you were supposed to win this year. Why would you design one for next year?