RSF Classics

[Luna]

I liked the race of today, the Southern Sun Classics. I propose for giving it RSF Classic status and repeating in the next year(s).
The finishing place is a very special place in Europe. It's the most south-western point of the continent, it nearly touches Africa.
The race gives oppotunity for climbers and classic riders to challenge each other. "Hillsprinters" are not much likely to win. The way to the finish is not the most demanding of the world. But who cares. there are other (real) classic races out there with more boring profiles.

[olmania]

I agree a lot !
I love this idea !
I wanted to purpose it last summer ... but I didn't ^^
So, we maybe can use past race, and imagine a "calendar", wich kind of profile race.
And, we can imagine a WinterClassicTrip in the south "hemispher" for this December for example, before, after or in parallel than the Fantasy Tour
If I purpose to put theses races with more thanCat1, i'm sure some wil disagree, but that can be interesting : riders with top level in the winter can do a little concurrence against the classic riders with top level in Mars-August ...

[Luna]

We already have some races on that "calendar". Don't know them all.

Some of them are

stager races:

Tour des Pavés
Sachsen Pavés
Tour du Jura (in octobre)
Tour de Noel
Les 3 jours de Caen (btw where are they for this year, leso?)
I'll try to make a 3rd Tour of Barbados

one day races:

Fleche Jurassienne (late November)
GP Fuscht
Pavés de Noel
"Jubiläums-Rennen"
La St Sylv (at Dec 31)
GP Letzebuerg (at Jan 01)

[skull]

dont forget the great
Coppa Mosella

[Luna]

Of course not!

[Robyklebt]

GP Brescia!!!!!!!! (early december and very cool yo!) DRAGOS PITU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for me a candidate to get cat 3 this year. Like Mosella too.
Bolkow-Bolkow (middle november it seems)

And maybe the Tour de la Paix in Dec. is getting the "classic" status too... I actually would prefer to have changing tours there, we have more than enough tours that are waiting to be ridden.

OL: Of course these races should be cat 2... after some years some can get to cat 3 as well

But don't think we should "force" it, desperately look for Fantasy-classics. Or design "fantasy classics". Just design normal races and if somebody really likes it... he'll post it here. Somebody rides a race and thinks that was fun, would like to do it again, somehow above average, propose it here, like Luna did now. Then we'll fight to get it into the Nov-Jan (feb) calendar as a fantasy classic with cat 2.

Not force it, but don't forget it either... in the old german forum we had that thread too, but I was the only one proposing stuff... got tired of it and then when I wanted to propose another race a few months ago the thread was gone...

[Luna]

Oh, i didn't knew we rode the Tour de la Paix again last December (due to absence from RSF). I liked it, too, when we rode it first in Dec 08. But like you said, there is not unlimited room for RSF Classic Fantasy Tours.

But i think, not only the off season must be the time for RSF classic one days and stage races. Even during the real season there's space for some races. Else we wouldn't have enough room for both, classics and one time fantasy courses. And sometimes there is a break of maybe a week or two, where no real races take place (or only few). There we could run some of it, too. We have fantasy races at any time during the year. Why not let it be some of our specials?


I forgot the famous Campeonato de los Andes!

[Lizard]

Just to add this: Cool, thanks for the flowers^^ I wanted to write a 2011 version for the Southern Sun Classics anyway, thought of same finale but this time between the middle climb and last climb more "Sieb"-Kms. If necessary, I´ll get it done ; )

[Luna]

You're the artist. Do it they way you feel. Only keep the finish in Gibraltar.

[olmania]

And my tour of Estérel in January. I will redraw it for the next year, because some liked it, and because that's a good tour !

[Lizard]

And my tour of Estérel in January. I will redraw it for the next year, because some liked it, and because that's a good tour !

Yes, Esterel I really liked (even though I did not win something there^^). Pro Esterel!

[NoPikouze]

Should nice 1 day fantasy races directly be discussed here ?

[Robyklebt]

Would make sense I think...

[Robyklebt]

Ok, nobody else yet, so I try to relaunch by praising a race.

Criterium de la Calle Sanchez.

Pavérace, ok, not really a friend of proposing to reride Pavé, almost all pavé are good and fun, but this is one I really liked, with 7 **** followed by ** ** ** at first, later followed by *** **** I thought it was very interesting, nice fight between those with pavé + mountain and those with more pavé but less mountain. Would like to see that again in 2011, but maybe not in september... (ok, maybe sept good too)

PS. Horror, it's an OL race, it was really hard praising an OL race

[Cerro Torre RT]

I didn't like it, because the final km were Pavé. And that just kills the race.

[Luna]

I liked that, because I beat Cerro there

[NoPikouze]

I believe Gp de Bielsko-Biala was pretty cool
Hard to remember though... easier to talk about races one day after them.

And all my american races of course.

[Robyklebt]

Preston-Blackburn. 31.10.10. INteresting profile, can be both sprint or hill sprint, depends a lot on the starting teams. Hope to see it as a cat 2 race in November 2011. Even tough with a strong sprinter group it might be too easy for sprinters... but even then something can be tried.

[el Galactico]

We forgot to ride Tour of the Welsh Dragon this year. 2009 it was in September. 4 days, designed by Luna i guess?

I remember this as one of the best tours i've ever ridden. Much fun! I would like to ride it again. Maybe it should become a better place, for example the beginning of December this year? Before the December tour starts.
It was also voted on place 2 for the best fantasy tour behind the Campeonato last year.

[Lizard]

We forgot to ride Tour of the Welsh Dragon this year. 2009 it was in September. 4 days, designed by Luna i guess?

I remember this as one of the best tours i've ever ridden. Much fun! I would like to ride it again. Maybe it should become a better place, for example the beginning of December this year? Before the December tour starts.
It was also voted on place 2 for the best fantasy tour behind the Campeonato last year.

Yes, Welsh Dragon would be cool to ride this year aswell. It truly was one of the best tours last year.

[Luna]

I was too lazy. Sorry.

It was also voted on place 2 for the best fantasy tour behind the Campeonato last year.

Oh, was it? Wow. Thank you all

Shall I do it again, yes? I guess, I could make it sometimes in November so we could get it into the calendar for Dec.

[el Galactico]

Yeah do it Luna. Was really a great tour last time. For me a clear candidate to become a new RSF-classic!

[Robyklebt]

Don't do it!

Yep, predictably the notorious malcontent Robyklebt (with the full support of his boss, the celestial monkey) disagrees.

Few reasons, I stick to the most important one IMO
What we need is not more RSF Tours, classic RFS Tours with a fixed place, but one day races. The fantasy season goes basically from the day after Lombardia to the beginning of January, the "pure" fantasy season, when there is nothing real known enough to be worth riding, restart with Tachira (every second year only though it seems, the length is a bit critical probably )The extended fantasy season then of course goes into february, well actually not really anymore, with more and more real races in february probably the fantasy season really ends in January.

Right now we have

October: Pavé-Jura.
November: Andes
December: Dectour, Tour de Noel, Shalom
January: Sachsen Pavé

October basically full. Last third of November free, first +/-5 days of December free. January... first half free when Tachira is there. So basically we have 15 days in Nov/Dec and 15 days in early January (but not really, only every second year so far, and with Aux I doubt we will miss Tachira this year) that are "free", where a fantasy tour can be the main tour or at least equal to a second tour that is raced at the same time. At all other times any fantasy tour is just nr 2. or 3. or 4.
By giving one more tour the "classic" status, putting it up to cat 2, we basically close that window as well. 4 stages? 5? Don't remember. Anyway, 6 days gone, can't start right after Andes finished I think need a day or 2 in between. So the 15 days window becomes a 9 day window.
Ok, don't have it every year, only every second year, soon we'll have a second tour that takes the other years. 11 Dragon 12 Esterel (which has been proposed as well, (and I protested by PN to OL ) Ok. and then all other fantasy tours are almost sure to be relegated to the lower status, parallel tours (that sometimes need some special characterstics because they have to complement the main tour) Or what if we find another really cool tour. Ok, we still have 9 days there? And close the rest. Or we can kick one of the old tours, no problem, getting it in doesn't mean it will be always in.. In theory yes. In practice? Doubt it. Let's look at the ones we have:

Pavé: Created as a goodbye for the first generation of Pavéstars, they all got old around the same time. That reason isn't there anymore, could be kicked? Maybe. on the other hand it has found a new reason, not only the last race for the old stars, but discovery of the potential new stars, that will try to dominate April. Plus giving the riders with the least races where they can play a role a tour. No reason to kick it. Agree.

Jura: Well, honestly? Could be kicked. No I'm not proposing it. I like it too. But basically it'a 4 day mountain tour. Which is ok, climbers that can't ride the Andes can get a 4 day tour where they get to dominate on 3 days once or maybe sometimes even twice a year. But does it have to be just 1 week-10 days before the Andes? Does it have to be the same one every year? Not really. Would make more sense in a way to have it sometimes here, sometimes there, sometimes an Atlas Tour, sometimes Alpes, sometimes Jura, Karpaten, Dolomites, Rocky Mountains, Himalaya, Tian Shan, Japanese Alps, etc etc. Looking at it. there really isn't much reason to have a Tour du Jura every year. Except that we have it. And again, I don't want to kick it either, like it (sometimes more, this year, 2008) sometimes less (09 IMO wasn't that good, can be my team, can be my group, can be the profiles, can be a mix) It's here, it stays, and to say we could kick it is fairly unrealistic. It could happen. When ZL get's tired of it. But even then somebody might want to take over.

Andes: Of course can't be kicked. REally? A GT that is basically for one type of rider? It could be kicked. Sometimes I even think it should be changed, should develop from a climbers tour to a real GT, that includes sprinters and others, but actually no, then it wouldn't be our Campeonato de los Andes anymore. So would go on a 5 month insulting campaign if Cerro would make a 6 sprint 3 hills 5 mountain stages Campeonato. Why? Again, because it has always been a pure mountains tour. Even if actually that isn't really fair, and doesn't really make sense... and could be kicked, which I don't support at all keep it. But trying to look at it from a detached unemotional position.. Andes could be kicked. Like Jura.

Dectour: The 5th GT. Really necessary to have another longish 12-14 days Tour? Wouldn't it be better to have a shorter one? Instead of giving one designer a 12 day tour, and have x others do a lot of work for nothing, wouldn't it be nicer to have 2 6 day once with a similar voting system? Maybe.. Or maybe have the 2 best tours instead of just one, so less designers do work for nothing? (Actually like this idea, was going to propose it if we had 10+ entries this year, we don't plus I in my opinion this years entries are worse than last year (average, which IMO was high last year, not only the 3 finalists but others were interesting too, this year I (and you're allowed to disagree) find the entries weaker) so won't. But ok, that wouldn't be kicking it. And in my superior objective detached apeway actually see few reasons to kick it, less than Andes and Jura (which of course I don't want to either, for the last time, read what I write, it's not like I write long posts that take to long to read, short and concise, that's my style... ehm ok, on topic again) But, suspect it might be the easiest one to kick since there is less emotional attachment, changing name, changing location, changing style, which one do we kick, Andes or Dectour? Dectour would be kicked. Don't think it will be kicked either of course.

Shalom: 100 reasons to be kicked, and i think it should actually. Honestly don't know how it came to be a fixed tour. Will it be kicked. We'll see. Will try this november, but actually doubt it. The people who rode it liked it, will defend it.

Noel: Similar to Shalom, is there really any reason to have it? It's christmas, 2 days, or is it 3? Why not. Right, but why yes? Not supporting to kick this one, just Shalom, more emotional reasons than anything else probably, the cool tree!

Sachsen Pavé: Similar to Jura but has a stronger case to stay.: A second pavLtour why not? But not really necessary either. But does it have to be in every year, same time same place? Not really. Time actually a good argument to keep it, fits much better than Jura. 4 months after Pavé, 1 month before Het Volk.. a nice beginning of the pavé season. But same place? Not really really. We could make a case to kick it. Which I'm not supporting (although I have to admit I never rode it so far... end of fantasy season, never earned as much as I wanted in the "easy" fantasy season, can't waste 5 days to have fun, RSF is hard work/team sucks so much no chance/other reasans). Those who rode it like it, I plan to ride it to one day... just when, 11 looks good, but...)

So... put it in, it's in to stay. Very very very very very hard to kick it.

So adding a new fix tour, even if it's only 4 days? No, we just close the calendar more and more, less place for new tours. And tours are fun to design, everybdy who designed a bit probably agrees, it's more fun to design a tour than a one day race. And it's even nicer if it's ridden. Add more fixed ones, harder for the other ones to come in.
Doesn't matter if you propse Lunas Dragons or Robys Morocco (well motherfuckers, why does nobody propose that piece of art? ) In my opinion one more fixed tour is not necessary, on the contrary, it's too much. Don't think I rode the dragon thing, didn't dislike it, one of the better tours of 09 from how it looked, just had a month of being pissed of, royally pissed off with a bunch of riders that would be good helpers for a mountain leader, but nothing more, something to do with the Vuelta, otherwise I might have started. It looked interesting.(but have to say that in 10 there are already 2 fantasy tours that I like more, from the look, and ok, rode them. Esterel (proposed for a fixed place too) and Borneo (but then I kind of really like the Gengis style, like almost all the tours he designs, pissed of at Leso for scheduling crimée that IMO looked excellent in the real season parallel to Piemonte, which I wasn't going to miss)) Ok, getting complicated teh point is: Opposition to a new fix tour is not meant as a coment or criticism of that tour, just that we don't need another fixed one.

Ok, not going to restrict myself to one reason, nr 2 and 3 come as well: Once you unleash the monkey, that's what you get.

2: Another specialists tour. Pavé, Jura, Andes, Sachsenpavé are all specialists tours. Another one? Personal preference, but I like it a bit mixed. Get tired of 3+ days of the same in the same tour. Oman? Died of boredom. Jura? After the fourth day it's enough if not too much. Happy to ride with a sprinter again. Andes? After 5 days, and usually the tough mountains haven't started yet, getting kind of tired. After 10 days I swear to myself that it's the last time I'm going to ride, 15 days full GC concentration too tiring. Pavé, ok, that I don't get tired of strangely, 5 days is ok. More probably not. Classic rider tour like Dragon? (I rode others in the past, with good teams, with bad teams) The same 3-4 days is enough, too much actually. Of course like all the others the classic riders can get their 1-2 maybe in their case even 3 specialized tours per year, but pleaes not as a fixed one. LIke would be true for the mountains as well, just a normal fantasy tour that happens to be there in sometimes in the fantasy season. And by having it fixed in a way you take away the possiblity for others to desing a specialized classics tour. LIke for pavé and mountain, the designer of a new 4 days specialist pavétour has basically no chance to get it into the calendar, the designer of a pure climbers tour has little chances (still some I think) to get it into the calender. By having the specialist tours fixed, you basically take them of the "designers market". But this is very much a secondary reason, specialist tour, the main one is above. Clogging the fantasy tours calender, making more and more of the others parallel tours.

3: Our designers? Changing for pavé, Jura=ZL, Andes=Cerro, December changing, Shalom original, cerro, now leso administration and changes, Noel leso, Sachsen Pavé Libby. Now proposed Dragon? Luna. What do this designer have in common? All pure fantasy designers. Ok, not really, Leso of course does the designing of real races too, Libby too occasionally, but don't think the others have, might be mistaken. At least non of them are part of the 'major designers'. And I think the major deserve some little prize too occasionally. Not saying their work (designing) is worth more than other work, being the fairness/nations commmittee, being a mentor, but since there is a connection between designing a real tour well, and designing a fantasy tour, good possibility to "reward" those designers. And the reward get's smaller and smaller (only parallel tours) each time a new tour is added to the calendar. While a non-designer gets a fixed place, the designers still have to fight to get their tours in too. Ok, here I think Leso actually does a bit what I would do, put in designers tours fairly fast, while others sometimes have to wait longer. Not complaining about not enough of my tours in the calendar, all I have designed have been ridden, regarless of quality (ok admit it, Morocco wasn't really good..) I just don't design short tours mostly. First to let others get their tour in after I had 3 in the first RSF year, then later because a) there were always many many tours waiting to be ridden no need to add another to the waiting list (respectively making others wait longer since I'm fairly confindent leso wouldn't have made mine wait too long) then clever monkey tactic... not too much RKL increases my dec chances. Of course winning with SPIH now has become a huge problem for the future.. grrr. But still my choice not to design more fantasy races, as I said, I'm fairly confident that if I would design 1-2 per year I would get 1-2 in per year (and had I known that right now the waiting list is not that long I probably would have designed one for this season, grrr) The point is not that I want more tours by real race designers, I'm happy with the situation that leso seems to put them in faster than others, but somehow then adding another non-designer to the guaranteed list doesn't make me too happy either. If a new tour with a fixed spot, why not "reward" a regular "real race designer? Of course I'm opposed to that too, negativity is good. Not saying that designing real races, tours, one day races is a terribly exhausting work and no fun at all. I think all of the real designers like doing it otherwise they wouldn't. But it can be frustrating too. Spending 2 hours to design a stupid belgian race that makes illogical turns in every little village where you have to check back and forth between the racelog, name of the next road, and the map, to find it, google google maps if you don't find it soon yourself, just so that we have the GP Van Steenbergen in the calendar. Which if all flat anyway, but since it has to be done correctly you look for the real roads, (ok, only t4b for that one) so that in the end it's as close as to reality as you can make it (others maybe would do it even better) That's not fun. Having another idiot barging in the calendar section complaining about the fact that race xyz is not done yet, while there simply is no information yet, or it has just arrived, gets on your nerves after a while. Having clueless assholes barging into the calendar sections complaining about the "designers being a closed circle that keep informations about races back to have more info" Gets on your nerves. Not talking about anybody that posted in this thread yet btw. Having to try to fit a section of 2,5 km flat, followed by a 2.5 climb, unrythmical climb, followed by a 3,5 downhill with a short 500 meter counterclimb after 1,7 km followed by a 1,5 flat part, then a 400 meter 15% ramp and 600% 12% downhill into 1 km parts... not easy, not really fun either, since it's often really impossible to find a solution that is clearly better than solution 2/3/4. Of course generally designing real races is something fun, or doesn't bother us too much, but not always, and not always easy too. Then, fantasy races are a nice change. You chose the route, you can be creative, you don't have to do ph.d. on belgian village streets. Even more fun: Doing Tours, there you can give it your own character, you can decide the combination of the stages, you can decide the order of the stages. Fun. Which designing a real tour can be too, but with time restraints etc. bad infos etc. isn't always. A fantasy tour.. with a fixed place you have a whole year to design it. No pressure at all. Or if you don't have a fixed place, just give up and don't design it when you don't have time, don't like the first results etc. Something you can't do with a real race, as fast as possible, now. So giving another fixed tour to another "non designer", a fun job without the hard part is a bit... frustrating? Unfair? Both not the correct words.. not really right in a way. IMO.
Not saying "non designers" shouldn't design fantasy races, not at all. Design as much as you want. Ok, maybe keep an eye on how many other tours are already designed and waiting, but that counts for real race designers too. Don't say they shouldn't be in the calendar, if they're good, they should be, if they're average, put them in too, maybe a longer wait, but even the best designer can make a bad tour, a beginner will make more mistakes, no reason to demotivate him if it's just average. If it's really bad, ok, then good if leso just forgets it.. But most tours by fantasy designers are ok, few bad ones, but the majority seems ok or better to me. Design, let's race them. But not really necessary to give them a fixed spot either. Want to design more? Join the non-fantasy department, unlike what the clueless assholes claim it's not a closed circle. We got a few new designers this years, ask them how often the old farts like OL, iBan, me, LCB, skullz told them to fuck off and stop designing "our stuff"... more the opposite.. hey you want more practice? And if you want to stay a pure fantasy designer, that's ok too.

Ok, maybe should have kept it at reason nr 1, was long enough. And really the MAIN reason, the 2 others are just additional, that only come into play if all our RSF Fantasy classic tours designer decide to stop designing their tours and demand that no other designer continue. Then nr 2 and 3 would come into play, but wouldn't really be decisive either, nr 1 would be the quality of the tour in question of course (and the dragons would fare well in that)

Summary:

I'm against a new fixed tour, non specialized, by a real races designer: 100%
I'm against a new fixed tour, specialized by a real reace designer 105%
I'm againt a new fixed tour, non specialize, by fantasy designer 105%
I'm against a new fixed tour, specialized, by a fantasy designer 110%

Main point is reason one, which is: IMO we don't need one more fixed tour, not enough space.

My suggestion for Luna here:

DON'T design a new Welsh Dragon. It was popular yes, it looked good, yes. It was good, don't know, didn't ride, my guess would be yes. But why restrict yourself to design welsh dragons? (Dragons can be dangerous) Why not just design another tour, somewhere else, maybe completely different, maybe the same style? But different name, otherwise the fans will call for it to be fix, the power of emotional attachment. Basically you can get a tour into the calendar every year, can be similar every year, but it won't have a fix place, not a higher category, might sometimes be a parallel tour too. And it won't have the same name each year. Then post it, and if it looks as good as the dragon, leso will probably program it fairly soon.

My suggestion to Wizard and Gala:
Don't ask Luna (or other designers) to redesign a cool tour. Or to make second version. Tell them that you really liked the tour, and would like to see him/her design a bit more. "Like your style dude, why don't you design another tour? Your last one was excellent! Design one more in this style"! Or "You're a good designer! Design more tours! Or even try to make an entry for the dectour! (but not in 2011 because Roby really wants to win )"

Don't really expect to win here btw. Almost resigned to have one more fixed tour, which isn't needed in the calendar. But still will post my opinion.

What we really need though is: Good one day fantasy races to be raced again in the future so that non Tour racing teams can have some highlights in the fantasy season too. 2-3 cat 3, 4-6 cat 2 in Nov and Dec each, some more in January would really be nice. And would be easier to kick out again later, the attachment to Bolkow Bolkow/Flèche Jurassienne probably isn't that big... even I don't think it's the greatest races on earth that have to stay in the calendar forever... just that we don't have anything else, if we get 8 cool races more for november in a few years, no more Bolkow Bolkow? No problem. No more Flèche, ok ok, probably wouldn't like it if you bastards try to kick my nice Balmberg.. but ok, down to 2, another better one to 3, nice compromise.

OK, end of the short post.

[Cerro Torre RT]

About Shalom: Originally designed by me, just connecting the Capitals of the region. I never thought of it being a fixed part of the race calender, and I never thought of designig a new one, one reason of this because there are no other capitals in those countries. Leso made more or less a new tour (one stage from mine was ridden backwards). So if it is really a fixed part of the callender, I don't know, and I think too, it would be possible to leave out. If not, I don't think I should design it again, I allready got a huge spot with the Campeonato.

For the one-day-races: Would like to know your opinion, which race did you like better for Christmas, the tree or Nazareth-Betlehem ?

[Lizard]

That's a race I wanted to talk about anyways. I really liked the profile of the christmas race Nazareth-Bethlehem, I would appreciate to ride it again this year on the 24th.