Itzulia Basque Country 15h - Abuse of admin rights

[Stevens2]

I’m posting the race chat below.

bergwerk(15:56): gw
Falcor(15:20): Go for it!
Wiener Zentralfriedhof RV(15:18): let's make a forum thread to discuss the favo role. react the race threads
JapanNeutron(15:16): GW
Falcor(15:15): Gw Undertaker!
Romoc Riders(15:14): gw
Team-Mojabahs(15:14): gw
Wiener Zentralfriedhof RV(15:14): stage win already nice start thx
SouthWest Packers(15:14): Gw WZF
Falcor(15:12): Also off to a great start for the red lantern team classification
Falcor(15:11): Same
Wiener Zentralfriedhof RV(15:11): just here because side program is dead
Falcor(15:11): Days like this are rare moments I miss Jensens 60TT start
Falcor(15:10): Don't think there was a single stage with a red km finish
Wiener Zentralfriedhof RV(15:09): I don't even won time on you today. not even funny to be considered among Davos
Falcor(15:09): Last year was way more Leupold friendly
SouthWest Packers(15:09): Ivan hatte das letztes Jahr auch gegen einen Huber gewonnen
Wiener Zentralfriedhof RV(15:09): no it's climbers or swp Huber.
Falcor(15:08): Smart, Lynch, Jamshid? Lynch would need a ton of luck
SouthWest Packers(15:08): Dir BW und mir
Falcor(15:08): But Vera on his ass all the way, so impossible to win
Falcor(15:07): Kerki stupidly not hanging on Kimmins, considered it, knew he would get into tempo alone eventually, but figured M-S wasn't gonna give a Heini win away like that...
Wiener Zentralfriedhof RV(15:07): zwischen?
SouthWest Packers(15:07): Das GK
Wiener Zentralfriedhof RV(15:06): Dreikampf um?
Wiener Zentralfriedhof RV(15:06): oh kerki just 4th yesterday?
SouthWest Packers(15:06): Wird ein interessanter Dreikampf
Wiener Zentralfriedhof RV(15:03): it's two times the 1
Falcor(15:03): Shows 11 for me too
Romoc Riders(15:02): it shows 11
Romoc Riders(15:02): nice form by Lynch
Wiener Zentralfriedhof RV(15:02): lynch is 1
Falcor(15:02): Good, the Undertaker doesn't deserve that anyways!
Romoc Riders(15:01): no nr 1 rider
Alkworld / Admin(15:01): Have fun!
Falcor(15:01): Thanks Alk
Wiener Zentralfriedhof RV(15:00): we can just skip the first 2 km
Alkworld / Admin(15:00): race will start now
Falcor(15:00): There he goes
SouthWest Packers(15:00): Servus guys
Hansa(14:59): Sorry for the mess..
Alkworld / Admin(14:57): I just for a moment postponed the race, will move it soon back
Alkworld / Admin(14:56): I'll try
Team-Mojabahs(14:54): moin
Wiener Zentralfriedhof RV(14:54): I asked in the admin group
Wiener Zentralfriedhof RV(14:52): just on smartphone here.
Hansa(14:52): Can you take me out aad or is that not possible? I have no real chance being here during work days..
Romoc Riders(14:51): you have to win it now
Hansa(14:49): I didnt want to be here...
Romoc Riders(14:42): hello
bergwerk(14:35): glückauf and hello ... wish a nice tour

So I’m going to take two cases to give my opinion, hoping to limit the use of “admin rights during races.”

First case:

Hansa signs up for a race and then asks to be removed. I’m not going to question whether he saw the opposing team compositions and decided to leave thinking he wouldn’t perform well... Only he knows that.

But what I do want to question is the fact that he was allowed to leave the race. We’re all grown adults, we should take responsibility. If I sign up for a race and make a mistake, then I own it.

I think this opens the door to abuse: I join, bring a very strong team, see that I might struggle, and then ask to be removed.

Second case:

FL asks to be added to the race and gets added after the deadline and that’s even more unfair. I have nothing against FL, but this is excessive. We’re talking about a situation where he can see all the opposing team compositions beforehand.

Normally, if you miss the deadline, that’s it you move on. But allowing him in is unfair favoritism.

You might disagree, but I’m convinced that if it were Spree making the same requests in both situations, he wouldn’t even be taken seriously. If Spree showed up at 20:40 saying “can I join?”, he’d just be ignored.

And that’s what bothers me. As players and admins, we need to be accountable. If a player makes a mistake, they deal with it. The same goes for admins they shouldn’t use their “god mode” to force unfair decisions.

Everyone has their limits. You can trash talk if you want, but honestly, when I see things like this, it really puts me off the game and makes me want to sell everything.

We all spend around 2 hours a day on this game it’s a huge investment for everyone, whether it’s Spree, Dreizehn, Romoc, JapanNeutron. There shouldn’t be any “I know Hansa, maybe he made a mistake.”

Take responsibility. You made a mistake. okay, that happens. Everyone makes mistakes. But unfortunately, we’re not going to remove you. You’ll only play 3 days out of 7 .it’s not ideal, but that’s on you. The game didn’t force you into it against your will.

Once, I misjudged a turn while parking and scratched my car. I took responsibility for it. That’s what I should have called this topic: “Take responsibility.”

Actions like this just create frustration for me and I don’t think I’m the only one. But if you don’t care and you’d rather play with 4 or 5, that’s your choice.

[Servicio Médico]

First of all from the admin side for me it just looks like Alk was trying to help people out that made a mistake. So i have a hard time seeing that in negative way.
But with the good intention to help people out there also comes the problem that to keep it fair you have to help out everyone equally. And that is actually impossible even with the best intentions if you have to do it manually... coz Alk cant be online 24/7 or any admin for that matter.
So If you cant guarantee that everybody gets the same help if needed i think its best to leave everything to the in game systems in place unless there is a bug ofc or something the player is at no fault if something goes wrong.
Otherwise people might think certain managers are favored or feel treated unfairly if they see they get no help while others did. Would be overall not a good look for the game i think.
So as nice as it is in general that Alk or all admins just try to help in an inscription case like today or the FL one it could easily lead to controversies that could be avoided if we just let players deal with their mistakes. Coz usually you dont do such a mistake twice coz next time you prolly pay more attention. Its like the same with setting sprint early or whatever. Sucks at the moment but you learn from it for next time.

[drei.zehn]

We all spend around 2 hours a day on this game it’s a huge investment for everyone, whether it’s Spree, Dreizehn, Romoc, JapanNeutron. There shouldn’t be any “I know Hansa, maybe he made a mistake.”

Somehow feel insulted by Elaska here…

[Stevens2]

First of all from the admin side for me it just looks like Alk was trying to help people out that made a mistake. So i have a hard time seeing that in negative way.
But with the good intention to help people out there also comes the problem that to keep it fair you have to help out everyone equally. And that is actually impossible even with the best intentions if you have to do it manually... coz Alk cant be online 24/7 or any admin for that matter.
So If you cant guarantee that everybody gets the same help if needed i think its best to leave everything to the in game systems in place unless there is a bug ofc or something the player is at no fault if something goes wrong.
Otherwise people might think certain managers are favored or feel treated unfairly if they see they get no help while others did. Would be overall not a good look for the game i think.
So as nice as it is in general that Alk or all admins just try to help in an inscription case like today or the FL one it could easily lead to controversies that could be avoided if we just let players deal with their mistakes. Coz usually you dont do such a mistake twice coz next time you prolly pay more attention. Its like the same with setting sprint early or whatever. Sucks at the moment but you learn from it for next time.

I can understand your point of view, but unfortunately I don’t agree with it.
For me, an admin should only step in in exceptional cases. If a race is blocked, then sure, they can intervene in situations that are not the player’s fault and that the player is just stuck with.

But here, in both cases, it’s on the player. Honestly, even asking Alk to remove or add someone to a race after the deadline sounds crazy to me. I wouldn’t even think of asking that. If I missed the time, I deal with it. If I got stuck in it, I deal with it.

It means the admin has to take actions they shouldn’t have to take. I’m not blaming Alk, because in that kind of situation he has to react fast, maybe he’s not even online and just gets a message like “remove Hansa” or something.

In both cases, the fairness of the race is affected before it even starts:

In FL’s case, he makes his lineup after seeing everyone else’s. Great fairness.
In Hansa’s case, maybe some people made their lineups thinking he would be there (“I’ll bring 2 climbers because maybe he’ll bring 2 too”, “if Hansa is in, I’ll play cheap”).

In both cases, I’m not even in the race, but I know I would have been frustrated.

What’s the next step then? “Sorry Alk, can I remake my lineup?” after already seeing everyone else’s?
How many extra lives do we each get? So Hansa got that this time, and if next time I get refused, then what? I just have to accept an unfair situation too?

That’s why I’m not even mad at Alk for making that kind of move. I’m asking players to be responsible for their own actions. Just accept it. You’ve raced 2500 times, if you’re late, it’s over. Same for Hansa, you’ve done 3500 races, if you made a mistake, then own it.

Maybe Hansa saw BW’s lineups and thought “damn, this is rough,” who knows. I’m not saying that’s what happened, but the possibility is there, and because of that, it shouldn’t be allowed. You just have to accept it.

Your sprint example is actually a good one. If you sprint at the IS and lose the race because of it, you accept your mistake. You don’t go ask Alk to give you your energy back because you messed up.

[Servicio Médico]

First of all from the admin side for me it just looks like Alk was trying to help people out that made a mistake. So i have a hard time seeing that in negative way.
But with the good intention to help people out there also comes the problem that to keep it fair you have to help out everyone equally. And that is actually impossible even with the best intentions if you have to do it manually... coz Alk cant be online 24/7 or any admin for that matter.
So If you cant guarantee that everybody gets the same help if needed i think its best to leave everything to the in game systems in place unless there is a bug ofc or something the player is at no fault if something goes wrong.
Otherwise people might think certain managers are favored or feel treated unfairly if they see they get no help while others did. Would be overall not a good look for the game i think.
So as nice as it is in general that Alk or all admins just try to help in an inscription case like today or the FL one it could easily lead to controversies that could be avoided if we just let players deal with their mistakes. Coz usually you dont do such a mistake twice coz next time you prolly pay more attention. Its like the same with setting sprint early or whatever. Sucks at the moment but you learn from it for next time.

I can understand your point of view, but unfortunately I don’t agree with it.
For me, an admin should only step in in exceptional cases. If a race is blocked, then sure, they can intervene in situations that are not the player’s fault and that the player is just stuck with.

But here, in both cases, it’s on the player. Honestly, even asking Alk to remove or add someone to a race after the deadline sounds crazy to me. I wouldn’t even think of asking that. If I missed the time, I deal with it. If I got stuck in it, I deal with it.

It means the admin has to take actions they shouldn’t have to take. I’m not blaming Alk, because in that kind of situation he has to react fast, maybe he’s not even online and just gets a message like “remove Hansa” or something.

In both cases, the fairness of the race is affected before it even starts:

In FL’s case, he makes his lineup after seeing everyone else’s. Great fairness.
In Hansa’s case, maybe some people made their lineups thinking he would be there (“I’ll bring 2 climbers because maybe he’ll bring 2 too”, “if Hansa is in, I’ll play cheap”).

In both cases, I’m not even in the race, but I know I would have been frustrated.

What’s the next step then? “Sorry Alk, can I remake my lineup?” after already seeing everyone else’s?
How many extra lives do we each get? So Hansa got that this time, and if next time I get refused, then what? I just have to accept an unfair situation too?

That’s why I’m not even mad at Alk for making that kind of move. I’m asking players to be responsible for their own actions. Just accept it. You’ve raced 2500 times, if you’re late, it’s over. Same for Hansa, you’ve done 3500 races, if you made a mistake, then own it.

Maybe Hansa saw BW’s lineups and thought “damn, this is rough,” who knows. I’m not saying that’s what happened, but the possibility is there, and because of that, it shouldn’t be allowed. You just have to accept it.

Your sprint example is actually a good one. If you sprint at the IS and lose the race because of it, you accept your mistake. You don’t go ask Alk to give you your energy back because you messed up.

Well i generally agree with your opinion if or at what point admins should step in. Just focused on the part when they do in.
So overall i think its best to just leave this stuff to the game systems coz if you decide to step in you have to make it every time regardless of who it is and and whats the reason really unless ofc they state its just for getting ahead of the competition ..but thats just not likely so you have treat every case the same. And thats just impossible like i stated before and opens a can of worms you dont want to open with all the possibilities and reasons people would do that you just described. Then it becomes a question of where you draw the line.
So in my opinion i would say just dont do it at all since the game systems are in place for a reason anyway.
Better to suck up one mistake than causing a lot of trouble down the line with interfering when it comes to race relevant things.

[Stevens2]

Thanks for taking the time to reply medical. I completely agree with you I don’t have anything else to add.

[Servicio Médico]

you're welcome. thought its a topic worth discussing how to deal with stuff like that in general. so i wanted to add my take on it for what its worth

[team fl]

I just want to clear some things, so you don't get the wrong impression of me exploiting Alkworlds friendliness or doing some shady stuff. Because stevens statements imply that in my opinion:

FL asks to be added to the race and gets added after the deadline and that’s even more unfair. I have nothing against FL, but this is excessive. We’re talking about a situation where he can see all the opposing team compositions beforehand.

In FL’s case, he makes his lineup after seeing everyone else’s. Great fairness.

I signed up long before the race started. My mistake was that I forgot to sign up 9 riders. I signed up only 8 and was not aware of that. The line up I gave Alkworld were exactly the 8 riders signed up plus the 9th rider I forgot to sign up. So the only thing that changed for the race was another player racing it, who everybody else saw long before the race had even started.

Furthermore, I haven't asked Alkworld to put me in the race. This idea hadn't even crossed my line of thought. I just expressed my disappointment in the general thread, very well bearing the consequences of my own mistake. Then Alkworld offered me, publicly in the general thread, not in a secret move to a "friend", that he might be able to add me to the race regardless. The race being Strade Bianche on a Saturday evening I kept free for this race after all, not some cat. 1 race.

I've been playing this game for almost 20 years. I refuse to be shown as somebody who begs to bend rules or avoid bearing the consequences of my own mistakes. As if you would have declined that offer....

[Tukhtahuaev]

A bit of a difficult topic. From my perspective as a spectator for both cases it was nice to see, because it promised a more exciting race for Strade and in Hansa's case could have done a lot of damage for what I see as a simple misclick.I much prefer to compete against the best teams with everyone being able to be online as much as possible. In neither case I could see any malicious intent and Alk simply corrected what to me clearly looked like honest mistakes.
But I also agree that we need consistency for cases like this, because you are right to say that this could in theory be abused. So I think having the ingame system only is the fairest option.
Maybe there is an option to have a warning pop up when you exit the signup screen without having registered a full team?
For signing up at the wrong time it is a bit more difficult. I would like to know how it even happened. Was it an accidental moving of the inscription? That could also have a warning pop up to make sure you actually want to switch times

[Robyklebt]

In principle I would say: Don't care. If Alk or Gipfel or AAD are on, they spot something that looks like a clear mistake, FL case he was inscribed with 8/9, Hansa's case, he never rides stage races in the afternoon (anymore), why not correct that, 99% it's a mistake.

But, your biggest argument that indeed makes one think:

We all spend around 2 hours a day on this game it’s a huge investment for everyone, whether it’s Spree, Dreizehn, Romoc, JapanNeutron. There shouldn’t be any “I know Hansa, maybe he made a mistake.”

Would it really be done for all? Now not sure the 4 examples you chose were the perfect ones, the 3 first mentioned ones have been around long enough, sort of known, but yes, JapanNeutron, pretty new, unknown, he might indeed have been told to suck it up. Or SweetLemmon... rightly righly, but then yes, then it becomes a bit unfair, Done for well behaved veterans like me or this half-noobs FL and Hansa, both not known for their angelic behaviour either, FL once got a fine for insults, he's clearly a problem-user!!!! Done for veterans, but would it be done for real problem-users? Would it be done for newcomers? Somebody alluded to a Crazy Vikings case, which of course I don't remember.. what happened there? Anyway, if it really is done as a general rule for all, in cases it looks like it was a genuine mistake, in cases where the admins are indeed on, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. Of course with veterans it's easier to make a judgement "looks like a mistake", "looks like he changed his mind", than with newcomers too.

Next: You're big on responsibility:

Take responsibility. You made a mistake. okay, that happens. Everyone makes mistakes.

We’re all grown adults, we should take responsibility. If I sign up for a race and make a mistake, then I own it.

But then, be consistent:

In Hansa’s case, maybe some people made their lineups thinking he would be there (“I’ll bring 2 climbers because maybe he’ll bring 2 too”, “if Hansa is in, I’ll play cheap”).

Here too, take responsibility. You made your lineup the way you did, for whatever reason, if after you see the full field you're not happy. Take responsibility. Don't blame user x who brought a different team. Don't blame user x who took a rider out at xx:32 so he doesn't start. Or don't blame the admin taking out the mistaken inscription, which is the rarest of all cases. Take responsibility counts for all. You (as in general you) are responsible for your lineup, nobody else.

What’s the next step then? “Sorry Alk, can I remake my lineup?” after already seeing everyone else’s?

Doubt it, here you're a bit in the "slippery slope" argument. Can't remember that ever beeing asked, can't imagine that being granted. If I forget to inscribe Winzenried fo Roubaix.... don't expect to get Alk and co to put him in, would not even ask. Ah, similar thing happened once, forgot my pavé star for a unimportant pavé race, I just fired the guy the next day, easier, if he doesn't want to show up... ok, blame him not me, not taking responsibility much really there...

Since it got too long:

In principle don't see much of a problem if it's handled evenly.
1) IF an admin is there
2) IF it looks like a clear mistake
Then just do it.
But should be the same for all, no special treatment for veterans. But to me it doesn't look like this was special treatment, they both just happen to be veterans (of course you could say that if it was a non-veteran in the FL case, maybe nobody would even have cared, if that non-veteran then would have been around whining in the general chat, maybe he would have been told to just ride later, that is possible. And that's why I say this argument is your best one)

[team fl]

Maybe there is an option to have a warning pop up when you exit the signup screen without having registered a full team?

Exactly this has been implemented after that incident. Not a pop up, but a warning in the inscription overview ("race details") that the inscription is incomplete.

[team fl]

maybe he would have been told to just ride later, that is possible.

Was the last edition that day. So no, later wasn't possible .

[Falcor CC]

I just want to clear some things, so you don't get the wrong impression of me exploiting Alkworlds friendliness or doing some shady stuff. Because stevens statements imply that in my opinion:

FL asks to be added to the race and gets added after the deadline and that’s even more unfair. I have nothing against FL, but this is excessive. We’re talking about a situation where he can see all the opposing team compositions beforehand.

In FL’s case, he makes his lineup after seeing everyone else’s. Great fairness.

I signed up long before the race started. My mistake was that I forgot to sign up 9 riders. I signed up only 8 and was not aware of that. The line up I gave Alkworld were exactly the 8 riders signed up plus the 9th rider I forgot to sign up. So the only thing that changed for the race was another player racing it, who everybody else saw long before the race had even started.

Furthermore, I haven't asked Alkworld to put me in the race. This idea hadn't even crossed my line of thought. I just expressed my disappointment in the general thread, very well bearing the consequences of my own mistake. Then Alkworld offered me, publicly in the general thread, not in a secret move to a "friend", that he might be able to add me to the race regardless. The race being Strade Bianche on a Saturday evening I kept free for this race after all, not some cat. 1 race.

I've been playing this game for almost 20 years. I refuse to be shown as somebody who begs to bend rules or avoid bearing the consequences of my own mistakes. As if you would have declined that offer....

I feel like I was one of the managers/teams that was affected the most by the decision to let you sign in later in Strade. With Jensen I was one of the favos, if not topfavo there since FL didn't complete his signup. He got in and in my opinion that changed the race entirely. Fürst now topfavo, and after getting dropped early there was doubt in the peloton to chase the winning move. I thought FL was still topfavo, he thought I was stronger (I was proven right, ha!). Chase too slow and neither of us, or anyone else in the peloton for that matter, wins. If FL didn't get in, it is very likely that I would chase harder, as I would have been more confident to be favo. By saying this I just want to show that I was affected hard by the decision to let FL ride.

That being said, I think it was 100% the right call to get him in. Never did it cross my mind that is was unfair at all. It was an honest mistake, which was very clear. I think there should be rules surrounding this probably, but I am actually very much in favor of how Alk/admins handled these specific cases. FL also got taken out of a tour completely a couple of months ago, not mentioned here yet. He thought he signed up for a one-day race, signed up for a tour instead, honest mistake. Assuming good faith, why should we deny managers the possibility to solve these honest mistakes? Should we punish Hansa by making him lose 500k and a probable D1 title because he made a small signup mistake and can't ride all week because of it, just to teach him a lesson? Should we deny FL the chance to ride Strade Bianche because he forgot to signup a 9th rider, just to teach him a lesson? In either case I think no one in the affected fields should mind the decision to grant the requests by these managers.

I much prefer to compete against the best teams with everyone being able to be online as much as possible.

Also, I think any competitor should agree to this. Even if we can never be 100% sure, I think we can risk taking the 99.9% sure assumption for granted that in the cases discussed there was no bad intent on either Hansa or FL's side. Again, I am riding in an affected field myself and even took Hansa signed up into account when making my lineup, but again I think the admins made the right call and I wouldn't want it to be otherwise.

[drei.zehn]

Should we punish Hansa by making him lose 500k and a probable D1 title…

Was with you the whole time, but here you got me thinking

[Stevens2]

Maybe my way of looking at this is a bit too strict, and maybe some of you think we’re not in North Korea and that a bit of flexibility is fine in some situations. I can understand that. But I still really struggle with Falcor’s argument.

First, you describe the FL race by saying he joined and was co-favorite with you. Fair enough. But that’s not really the point for me. My reasoning is based on the idea that the top team and the last team should be treated exactly the same, whether they end up influencing the race or not, whether it’s a Cat 1 or a Cat 6. A rule is a rule.

If FL joins, does 0 tempo for 2 hours and finishes 45th, for me it’s still exactly the same as if he wins. The actual race outcome is secondary here. The only thing a win changes is that it creates even more frustration.

What really bothers me is this kind of reasoning:

Should we punish Hansa by making him lose 500k and probably a D1 title because of a small signup mistake? Should we deny FL the chance to ride Strade Bianche because he forgot to signup a 9th rider?

That’s exactly where I disagree. Because once you start thinking like that, it sounds like: “well, it’s Hansa, he’s fighting for D1, so maybe we should make an exception.” But if it’s JapanNeutron or Rohazon in D4 or D5, then who cares?
That’s the problem. Rules should not change depending on the name of the manager or the importance of the race. Either the rule applies to everyone, or it means nothing.

To use a real-life example:

In Daegu 2011, Usain Bolt false started. Everyone knew he was probably going to win the race easily. But nobody said, “come on, it’s Bolt, let him stay because he’s the star.” And at the same time kick out some random guy from the heats because “he wasn’t going to win anyway.”
Bolt got disqualified, just like anyone else would have. And that was the correct decision.

So if Hansa loses D1 because of this mistake, then he loses it. That’s harsh, but that’s how responsibility works. You make a mistake, there are consequences. Every move in this game has consequences. In this case, the consequence just happens to be bigger than usual.

And if we go back to the game manual, it’s pretty clear:

1. Inscribing to a live race
Every day the game offers multiple live races at different times. The whole calendar can be found in the Calendar tab and generally follows the races taking place in real life.

Inscription
You can sign up for a race until 30 minutes before the start. What is important to know before you sign up:

It is an online game. To be successful, sign up for a time, at which you can be online. -> Hansa knew he wouldn’t be there on time, but he signed up anyway, and then 10 minutes later it was suddenly “I have a lot of work, I can’t make it.” So in the space of one day, he somehow discovered that he has a job.
Make sure, that you have registered all necessary riders (visible as "My inscribed Riders: 9 / 9" for example). -> And what are we supposed to do with FL? Start calling every guy who is at 8/9 around xx:25 just to make sure? “Hey, maybe you forgot a rider.”
By inscribing to a race, you accept the Fairplay Rules.

In both scenarios, that rule was broken.

The moment you allow exceptions in race-related situations, you open the door to endless debates about where the line should be drawn.

[Falcor CC]

First, you describe the FL race by saying he joined and was co-favorite with you. Fair enough. But that’s not really the point for me. My reasoning is based on the idea that the top team and the last team should be treated exactly the same, whether they end up influencing the race or not, whether it’s a Cat 1 or a Cat 6. A rule is a rule.

If FL joins, does 0 tempo for 2 hours and finishes 45th, for me it’s still exactly the same as if he wins. The actual race outcome is secondary here. The only thing a win changes is that it creates even more frustration.

What really bothers me is this kind of reasoning:

Should we punish Hansa by making him lose 500k and probably a D1 title because of a small signup mistake? Should we deny FL the chance to ride Strade Bianche because he forgot to signup a 9th rider?

That’s exactly where I disagree. Because once you start thinking like that, it sounds like: “well, it’s Hansa, he’s fighting for D1, so maybe we should make an exception.” But if it’s JapanNeutron or Rohazon in D4 or D5, then who cares?
That’s the problem. Rules should not change depending on the name of the manager or the importance of the race. Either the rule applies to everyone, or it means nothing.

That's actually where you misunderstood me. I'm trying to say the opposite of "this manager should get what he wants because of his status". My argument was about me not caring whether the affected person is a favo or not, a D1 team or a D6 team. I just think everyone should get the chance to ride (when they can/want to), and that there shouldn't be exceptions.

Again, I think in these specific cases the admins handled it right.

The only problem for me is that it might give people the perception that it is okay to ask to get taken out of a field because they don't like the field, or something similar. It isn't of course, but I'm sure people will use it as an argument at some point when they want to leave a field without a valid reason. And in that regard, I'm on your side, since I don't know how to solve that issue. If only people could be trusted to not abuse the system or the kindness of others ...

[RC Hachen]

Just short my point of view:
I like the way stevens is thinking. There is a "IT" system which seems not buggy where you can inscribe, so you can't exploit it. (for sure there will be hidden ways maybe for admins )

An admin can overrule the system so he could (i don't say he does, just hypothetically) possible exploit it for anyone.
So if we stick to the system the mistake has been made by a player not the system and we all feel safe against exploiting some power.

Just a question to think about:
Does anyone has the same lines of communication towards any of the admin like each new player?Or are there perhaps whattsapp contacts/discord chats...you name it... where someone can reach faster an admin like anyone else?

To avoid that fairness can be attacked i would vote for no corrections by admins.


Just a case:
Elmo asked after he saw the field of Tirreno if an admin can take him out, cause he felt chanceless. Sure it was denied.
Now?
When Elmo 10 mins after inscription ends called "hey i did a mistake and wanted to inscribe for a later tour" but hidden intent is to avoid them.
Are we able to denie it? Without knowing his hidden intent.
(sry Elmo for using you as an example )

Don't wanna blame FL or Hansa, just my way of thinking about fairplay for everyone.

In Addition:

We could make an exception for big tours (we need to define what is big) to prevent mistakes:

- Players post their lineup in forum in the designated thread
- deadline 12h before
- they have to name the time they wanna ride
- after deadline no edit of the post is allowed

it's used as a backup, if anything went wrong for that specific tour/monument at that specific time. Sure the lineup won't be a surprise.
But clear also this can be exploited.

[Robyklebt]

At some point you simply have to trust that people are honest.
If Elmo had said it was a mistake, he wanted the 1 day race... why not believe him. Ok, unless it's clear from the lineup that it's for a tour. Or if Elmo had said he just looked at it, then changed, but forgot to actually change (like Donks with his training, sniff)... why not believe him. And take him out if it's before the race starts. Trust your opponents.

I was once taken out of a Tour by my request. Father in law died, we had to travel to Japan (from not Japan) no smartphone yet, no computer there, ok, my wife's, but she doesn't let me use it. Should that then also be denied? Should I stay in? Because I slightly influenced the race in the 2 or 3 days I rode (Dec tour, SPIH 09!), last day knowing I would be off from then on didn't do anything anymore. Or should I be denied because you don't know it's true? Or should I be trusted because I've been here long (only 3.5 years at the time, but loud and obnoxious, so Buhmann and leso knew me already.) but somebody new not? Slippery slope, slippery slope, works both ways. Nowadays you could say, you can play from the mobile. But maybe one day the Donkey parents will die too, maybe then the Donkey will have to travel to Switzerland, and maybe he won't be in the mood to play c4f. Cannot be taken out? Just a game, not so important, yes, but I still think in a case like this it would be ok to just take me out of the stage race I'm in, so I don't lose lots of ingame money due no fault of my own. Yes, little importance compared to the death of somebody close, still, annoying. Ok, you let me out? But can I be trusted? Can somebody else be trusted? On that yes, but on "I did a mistake" not?

The question really is if the treatment is the same for all, for Big Donkey and for SweetLemmon, for Stevens and for Elmo. No preferential treatment for veterans, great people. There really wasn't so far as far as I can say...

[Pokemon Club]

In my opinion managers need to assume their mistake but (who never made a mistake in his lineup?) but some things can be unpredictable and avoid you to play. It isn't possible to create an option to individually take out riders from a tours. If all riders give up before the end of the day the team is free to ride the day after in another race.

[NBeullens]

I'm also of the opinion that if you make a mistake that you are screwed and need to play out the mistake. I've also had that i think i'm in later than i really was and i find out once my riders are out or lower energy or whatever.

I don't think admins need to intervene when people make mistakes. Shit happens, suck it up buttercup

[Elaska]

I didn't follow all what happened there and from my point of view I don't really care. I got the stevens point of view, and also the other ones versus.

(nothing to really add)

The final solution here is the give everyone the possibility to contact directly every admin if needed

[Alkworld]

Some thoughts on those two topics ...

Taking out teams from a race:

• as written by others above, it has happened quite a few times over the years. But it's still pretty rare, maybe around once per year?
• if there's a good and credible reason or an obvious mistake (e.g. Hansa choosing the wrong time or a sprint team signed up for the Andes), I'm totally fine with helping anybody. That however is easier to judge when it's about a team I've known for years than for some newbie.
• at the moment, it can only be done directly in the database, which for me only works at home and requires a few minutes of work.
• it's pretty easy before the race starts, and can be pretty painful (high effort) afterwards. That's actually why I tried it right away in the Hansa case this week.
• the effort to be put in by an admin should be in relation to the damage caused if nothing is done. What I mean is that I'd rather take the time to help somebody who accidentally signed up for a GT instead of a one-day race than somebody who's just in the wrong irrelevant one-day race.

The late addition of Team FL in Strade Bianche was a very unique situation:

• in the visitor chat of the morning we were already chatting about the evening race

  Alkworld(09:59): yes 21h
  Team FL(09:51): see you later maybe. the chores are waiting...
  Team FL(09:49): you ride at 21h too?

• in the 21h visitor chat there's more about it

  Team FL(20:48): ok, Alkworld says i had only 8 riders during the whole day. that must be it. I never realised...
  Team FL(20:47): but if Alkworld reads this, it would be interesting to know, what I did wrong, so I can avoid this in the future...
  Team FL(20:46): the frustrating part is that i did not make any other plans this evening to be able to ride this. any good movie to watch?
  Team FL(20:44): but everthing looked fine.
  Team FL(20:44): very strange. maybe i misclicked when I checked via mobile...
  Seibu High School(20:44): Only Bergwerk was under the 9 riders
  Seibu High School(20:43): When I checked, it seemed to me that everything was okay for you too. A bit strange
  Team FL(20:41): this is really a bummer. anyway. it is what it is, seems i did something wrong. still wish everybody a fun race..... bähhhh
  Team FL(20:38): just checked and everything looked fine...
  Team FL(20:34): dammit, i was sign up for this race. what went wrong?

• fixing the inscription was actually lots of painful work, just managed it in time for the race. It would require an extraordinary case to do that again.
• in the race itself, having the Fürst there was just one more guy that beat me But karma anyway seemed to be on Taka's side that day.

In the end, one of my main goals is that everybody can enjoy the game. Missing an important race you've been preparing for up to a year would be a big bummer. In such cases, I'd still try to help.

[Bugatti]

During inscription, this can be easily resolved by displaying a large visual red flashing notice in the inscription area to indicate that the full lineup has not yet been signed.
However, this only solves the problem of incomplete inscription, but should be added in a few min