February 2025

[Gipfelstuermer]

Preview PDF
February 2025

Please also view January 2025 as it's not yet fully designed.

Races to be designed:
AlUla Tour
Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana
Tour of Oman
Tour de la Provence
UAE Tour
O Gran Camiño - The Historical Route
UCI World Championships Liévin

Races to be checked:
Trofeo Andratx - Pollença
Cadel Evans Great Ocean Road Race
Trofeo Palma
Grand Prix Cycliste de Marseille La Marseillaise
Muscat Classic
Vuelta Ciclista a la Region de Murcia "Costa Calida"
Clasica de Almeria
Clasica Jaen
Figueira Champions Classic
Classic Var

Legend
BLUE = Designer found
GREEN = DONE

[Alkworld]

It's time for NCs again Any day of the week would be fine meanwhile, NCs were also tested in the test version in early December, so I wouldn't expect too many bugs.

[olmania]

Alula => details still not available, but I can do it next week if details come in
I can do Provence and Bessèges (not in your list ?).
I can also check La marseillaise + var classic

[ECS Cycling]

Alula => details still not available, but I can do it next week if details come in
I can do Provence and Bessèges (not in your list ?).
I can also check La marseillaise + var classic

Actually, details are available for the Alula Tour here, and I can do it this week as well. https://www.thealulatour.com/

[Let's Go]

Would suggest either Bessèges or Algarve:
‐ Bessèges instead of Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana.
‐ Move Algarve to an earlier date so it doesn't overlap with UAE, Tour of Oman slots would be a possibility.

Think none of the tours currently in the preview have a ITT (from what I looked at, maybe they do) and both the ones mentioned do, so it would allow more diversity and also seem to be races that have been ridden in the past.

[olmania]

Alula => details still not available, but I can do it next week if details come in
I can do Provence and Bessèges (not in your list ?).
I can also check La marseillaise + var classic

Actually, details are available for the Alula Tour here, and I can do it this week as well. https://www.thealulatour.com/

ha yes ! finally ! when I last checked, there was still nothing, thanks for the update !

if you can do it faster than I, go for it ! I will probably not have time for it before Monday.

[NBeullens]

Yeah when will the next NC's be, because normally it is in februari. I know the last NC's got pushed back from october to november but still

[olmania]

for info, classic Var will have a difference design (last km @12%).

GP La marseillaise is also having a different design in its second part. will do it asap

[Gipfelstuermer]

It's time for NCs again Any day of the week would be fine meanwhile, NCs were also tested in the test version in early December, so I wouldn't expect too many bugs.

Yeah when will the next NC's be, because normally it is in februari. I know the last NC's got pushed back from october to november but still

Tuesday, 25th February looks best. (One day to recover from UAE Tour.)

[olmania]

[zizou]

Would suggest either Bessèges or Algarve:
‐ Bessèges instead of Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana.
‐ Move Algarve to an earlier date so it doesn't overlap with UAE, Tour of Oman slots would be a possibility.

Think none of the tours currently in the preview have a ITT (from what I looked at, maybe they do) and both the ones mentioned do, so it would allow more diversity and also seem to be races that have been ridden in the past.

Isnt UAE with a ITT?
Always the same 1x ITT, 2x mountain finishes, rest flat stages

[Let's Go]

Would suggest either Bessèges or Algarve:
‐ Bessèges instead of Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana.
‐ Move Algarve to an earlier date so it doesn't overlap with UAE, Tour of Oman slots would be a possibility.

Think none of the tours currently in the preview have a ITT (from what I looked at, maybe they do) and both the ones mentioned do, so it would allow more diversity and also seem to be races that have been ridden in the past.

Isnt UAE with a ITT?
Always the same 1x ITT, 2x mountain finishes, rest flat stages

Got confused with the number of km in one of the stages, but the information on their website seems to be from the previous year anyways. But we could still add a tour with TT in that time period

[ECS Cycling]

[zizou]

Would suggest either Bessèges or Algarve:
‐ Bessèges instead of Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana.
‐ Move Algarve to an earlier date so it doesn't overlap with UAE, Tour of Oman slots would be a possibility.

Think none of the tours currently in the preview have a ITT (from what I looked at, maybe they do) and both the ones mentioned do, so it would allow more diversity and also seem to be races that have been ridden in the past.

Isnt UAE with a ITT?
Always the same 1x ITT, 2x mountain finishes, rest flat stages

Got confused with the number of km in one of the stages, but the information on their website seems to be from the previous year anyways. But we could still add a tour with TT in that time period

more or less the same every year.

but add Algarve would be nice to. informations or already on the website and it's a nice tour

[olmania]

[Robyklebt]

Times to me look very doubtful.

6 stages races that are at least partly in February. The morning gets all 6. AlUla with only 2 editions, can't be changed anymore of course.
But then the parallel tours, Valencia and Oman get double morning? Double evening of course is fully ok, it is the most popular time. But double morning?
The other 3 stage races get 4 editions, so 1 morning each is logic

Morning 6
Afternoon 4
early evening (17-19) 3 (17-20) 6
evening 7 (20-23) 21-23 4

Looking at December, in 4 stage races the morning had 36 teams, afternoon 40, early evening 21 in 2 if you count it till 19, (20/21 for morning/afternoon in those 2 races), 43 if you count until 20. Evening 22-23 38 in 4 editions, no 21 in December.

Does this warrant double the possibilities to ride for the morning compared to the early evening or the afternoon? No. So IMO the double VAlencia+Oman shouldn't be offered for the morning. it would be ok if we had 4 AlUla editions, as would have made sense, but like this? No.
Also looking at the combined evening, now we have
18h 2
19h 1
20h 3
21h 1
22h 2
23 1

Is 20 really that much more popular than 21h? Well, popular to be offered for sure, 21 hasn't been offered in December/January, hasn't been offered a lot in the last half year really.

Considering that, I'd think the following would be better.

9/10-18-21 for one
15-19-22 the other

Evens out the evening itself, general "times" evened out a bit too.
makes more sense. Other option would be only 4 combined Valencia/Oman editions. Or 5

Next, Provence, 11-16-20-23, why go for the "off times" here? 11 on weekends in 1 day races has rather unconvincing numbers. Ok, morning generally a bit weaker on weekends, 11 might be fine, if the morning people think so. Afternoon, I know, 14-15 on weekends generally do rather well. We've had time when on weekends the afternoon was the strongest time, standard afternoon, Why not offer that on a standard time then, since it's basically a weekend tour?

You'll be happy to know that I have no complaints whatsoever about UAE!

But then we come to Gran Camino: Cat 2, 8 riders, 4 editions. Hm, where's the consistency? AlUla, which is in the exactly same position, new race for c4f, in reality exists since 2022 (actually there was a 20 edition for Saudi Arabia it seems, so it's even older, but a detail) Participation similar. Parallel 1 day races? Yes, we have Mallorca parallel to AlUla. Only Het Nieuwsblad, Kuurne-Bruxelles-Kuurne, Faun Ardéche and Faun Drome parallel (4 races in 2 days, usually the first french one then on Friday, second on IMO could be on the real date parallel to K-B-K, as it was sometimes in the past, but not 2024 where it was delayed by 1 day (unnecessary IMO, KBK is not all that important, but can be done)
So are there any reasons, except personal preference by Gipfelstuermer, for this lack of consistency, AlUla vs Gran Camino?

Ok ok, I'm not proposing to make the same mistake twice, cat 1 and riders. But with Het Nieuwsblad parallel I think 4 editions might be too many. UAE that often was parallel to Het Nieuwsblad was regularly offered only 3 times as well, I think even with presumably higher numbers 25 than 24, it still makes sense to offer it one time less, meaning the 3 editions (plus then we have at least some semblance of consitency regarding the AlUla failure (Ok, I'll stop with AlUla.. ok, will restart the next time somebody proposes a Deutschland Tour at more than cat 0)

Faun Ardèche, relax, my last point, reality same day as Het Nieuwsblad, 01.03., IF we change the date, 28.02. makes most sense (03.03. open too, but if we use it for Drome, not open, also 1 day further away from the real date). So think about that when you post the finalized PDF.

[Bear]

For me personally 21 and 22 are the best times. I dont know if the early evening people prefer 18-19-20 ? And I dont know how many Teams prefer 23:00? Lately I recognized I was Not the only One falling asleep after 23:00

[olmania]

So, should I design Besseges ?
Because I have time for it this week, but unsure I'll have some next week.

[Gipfelstuermer]

So, should I design Besseges ?
Because I have time for it this week, but unsure I'll have some next week.

There is an option to have Valanciana, Besseges & Oman with 2 editions each instead of 3 each without Besseges.

So it would be nice.

But I was also waiting/hoping for a bit more feedback/opinions on this before taking a decision

[ECS Cycling]

Would suggest either Bessèges or Algarve:
‐ Bessèges instead of Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana.
‐ Move Algarve to an earlier date so it doesn't overlap with UAE, Tour of Oman slots would be a possibility.

Think none of the tours currently in the preview have a ITT (from what I looked at, maybe they do) and both the ones mentioned do, so it would allow more diversity and also seem to be races that have been ridden in the past.

Isnt UAE with a ITT?
Always the same 1x ITT, 2x mountain finishes, rest flat stages

Got confused with the number of km in one of the stages, but the information on their website seems to be from the previous year anyways. But we could still add a tour with TT in that time period

O Gran Camino also has a TT

[Gipfelstuermer]

Times to me look very doubtful.

[..]
But then the parallel tours, Valencia and Oman get double morning?
[...]
But double morning?
[...]
Does this warrant double the possibilities to ride for the morning compared to the early evening or the afternoon?
[...]
No. So IMO the double VAlencia+Oman shouldn't be offered for the morning.

Ok, got the message. What solution do you prefer? One edition less or same number of editions? If the latter, one more afternoon or one more evening edition?

Is 20 really that much more popular than 21h?

Somehow, yes:
1.) Evening players have specifically asked for more 19h/20h and less 18h, so the 21h suffers a bit (as I wouldn't schedule 20h AND 21h same race)
2.) Since (more) players have asked for more and more stage races (which I try to balance, but it's hard with tours like Alula and Gran Camino creeping into too-good-to-reject windows, but more about that below), we now have more smaller tours at 2 or 3 editions making 20h interesting and also more 5-edition tours, also making 20h interesting, whereas in the previously standard 4 editions, there was rarely a spot for 20h.

Next, Provence, 11-16-20-23, why go for the "off times" here?

Lowest-cat and shortest tour in the month, so if I offer "off times", likely here. But understand especially the afternoon-weekend argument, so will likely change that to 15h and reconside if 15-20 is then too big of a gap.

But then we come to Gran Camino: Cat 2, 8 riders, 4 editions. Hm, where's the consistency?
[...]
So are there any reasons, except personal preference by Gipfelstuermer, for this lack of consistency, AlUla vs Gran Camino?

Mmmh, probably I would have argued Gran Camino has been much more popular than Alula. Ok, popular is a difficult word. Sounds subjective? Just my personal preference? Maybe. Quick Google Search: 679.000 for Gran Camino. 99.000 for Alula Tour. But ok... popularity amongst WT teams seems similar... at least the way the calendar falls this year... even though I'd argue Valverde and Vingegaard as previous winners helps Gran Camino prestige. But ok, both exist since 2022, both are UCI 2.1. So if Alula keeps its calendar spot and UCI category, will be cat 2, 8 riders next year (at least if I am still calendar manager by then).

More importantly, I didn't realize Gran Camino is 5 days this year ! Thought it's 3 days! Well, last year was 4 days, so no clue why I thought 3 days. Maybe because I remembered Vingegaard winning all 3 stages last year, but actually he only won all 3 normal stages (not the ITT). Or just wishful thinking probably as I didn't want to think about March already. By the way, you could have spotted that I thought it's just those 3 days, because I didn't add a note "until ...." in the PDF which I normally do if a stage race overlaps month end.

Soooo, with Gran Camino overlapping the classics opening weekend, I'd probably scrap it! But ok, we want Alula fairness, so it needs to be there? 3 editions you suggest? Seems too much considering UAE Tour (World Tour!) used to be 3 editions. So actually, 2 editions sounds fair to me.

[olmania]

[Radunion]

I promised to compare the real calendar. I am a bit late this month, but here it is. Stage races marked with x are in the preview. The numbers in the brackets are last year's participation as World- Pro- and Continental teams.

x 2/5/2025 2/9/2025 Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana 2.Pro (7 WT, 9PT, 3CT)
2/5/2025 2/9/2025 Etoile de Bessèges - Tour du Gard 2.1 (7 WT, 8 PT, 4 CT)
x 2/8/2025 2/12/2025 Tour of Oman 2.Pro (9 WT, 4 PT, 3 CT)
x 2/14/2025 2/16/2025 Tour de la Provence 2.1 (5 WT, 4 PT, 8 CT)
x 2/17/2025 2/23/2025 UAE Tour 2.UWT
2/19/2025 2/23/2025 Vuelta a Andalucia Ruta Ciclista Del Sol 2.Pro (7 WT, 8 PT)
2/19/2025 2/23/2025 Volta ao Algarve em Bicicleta 2.Pro (13 WT, 3 PT, 9 CT)
2/22/2025 2/23/2025 Tour des Alpes-Maritimes 2.1 (5 WT, 5 PT, 6 CT)
2/23/2025 3/2/2025 Tour du Rwanda 2.1 (4 WT, 9 CT)
x 2/26/2025 3/2/2025 O Gran Camiño - The Historical Route 2.1 (6 WT, 6 PT, 5 CT)

The real calendar looks especially crowded this year, so I understand that we have to cut something, but we should not be afraid of two parallel tours. Leaving Besseges out looks fine, but as already discussed, we can ride Andalucia or Algarve. Last year's participation means I would favor Algarve. Personally, I would like to include Rwanda, as it is the only African race top teams can ride, but I accept that this is very likely a minority opinion here.

No overview of one-day races this time as everything is already on the calendar.

[Robyklebt]

Ok, got the message. What solution do you prefer? One edition less or same number of editions? If the latter, one more afternoon or one more evening edition?

Whatever you like... Actually I did propose an alternative already.

9/10-18-21 for one
15-19-22 the other

With an explanation of some advantages, which I'll spare you this time. Looked good to me, but doesn't mean it's the best solution.

Now with Bessèges in as well (at least looks like it) of course different. And with Gran Camino down to 2, another possibility to decrease the morning, then maybe double morning for the 2/3 paralell tours works again.
My point, which you understood, was mainly that giving the morning everything didn't make that much sense, how you decrease that now, really up to you.

Of course I can still make countless proposals, but I'm also aware that there isn't a 1 single right solution, just a bunch of "could work". With Bessèges it becomes more difficult if anything....

10-19
15-21
18-22
?
Gran Camino then
9-21? But so similar to 10-20 for AlUla..... not ideal
13-22?
18-22 and cut 18 in the triple thing above and add 20 (but then 10-20/15-21/19-22)

I could continue....

[Bugatti]

Very nice that we got some Tours at February. I'm not sure for now what tour s i'm going for. But would be good if we have a time between 8 and 14 from each tour. 8h should be fine for a lot of morning guys and a 12h version sounds very good too.