Suggestion for the offseason calendar

[Radunion]

If you do not like design competition, so be it. I think the game looses out as it is a way to draw new designers into it and helps us to find tours that draw more interest. Nevertheless, we need some feedback on the races and a replacement of weak tours. Participation could be a criterium, polls after the races could be another. A race should not stay in just because some people got used to it. More high category races in November and December could work as well. As there are no real races as competition it does not devalue them and giving all of us something valuable to win could boost participation.

Sorry for the rant, but November is really bad at the moment to keep people in the game, who do not want to ride Andes.

[flockmastoR]

Races Needed

South East Asia (8 races available, 12 spots)
1 Paves Race
3-4 hilly
2 Hard hilly - HC

Afrika (all in all a lot of races available)
1 Paves Race
2 Hard hilly - HC

[flockmastoR]

Races Needed

South East Asia (8 races available, 12 spots)
1 Paves Race
3-4 hilly
2 Hard hilly - HC

Afrika (all in all a lot of races available)
1 Paves Race
2 Hard hilly - HC

hilly and hard races in Asian region looks fine now, probably some not ultra flat ones missing. "wellig" ones with some 5s, or flat races with some isolated +6 kind of kms (but for a chance of the flat sprinters to come back).

[team fl]

It's the time of the year again, this time even earlier (for more discussion?!): The suggestion (!) for the offseason calendar 2024/2025! Have fun looking at it (so many different colours!), discussing it, prasing it, condemnig it, critisising it, printing it out and eating it or whatever makes you happy! Legend has it, that the different colours have meaning, but this knowledge has been forogotten! Can you find it out? comment it in this thread.

[Tukhtahuaev]

Tour du Faso and Tour du Sahel both look like they will be purely for sprinters. I would probably prefer one of them being replaced by a more balanced fantasy tour

[Hansa]

Tour du Faso and Tour du Sahel both look like they will be purely for sprinters. I would probably prefer one of them being replaced by a more balanced fantasy tour

there are some spots for fantasy tours to have balanced tours, i would be against cutting real tours in favor of a fantasy one.


i would propose shift the fantasy tour parallel to andes 2 days earlier (starting on 11th instead of 13th), usually tours in the week do better and it only overlaps with 1 rsf classic then

[olmania]

If the participation stays high, why not having even more tours, and sometimes 2 fantasy in //.
Where I see more spots for small tours :
in // of Faso
in // of small tour/Dec tour in late nov/early Dec
in early Jan and // to Jan Tour
That could mean possibly move a little the dates of a few offseason one day "classics" races to keep these attractive and competitive.

Having more tours could also mean only 2-(3) times for these additionnal tours, as it was previously experimented recently. Balance with participation and number of players have to stay good. It worked pretty well during the past months and this summer. Tours, and small tours were attractive and had participation; leaving one day races not empty as some/many teams take part mostly in tours and not one day races and as we new a couple of new players and come backs.

additional remarks/questions :
maybe let a day off between end of Jan tour and first real race of the season TDU Classic ?
as participation differs in weekdays and weekends : avoid 3weekends for the Andes and make it only 2 if that makes sense for higher participation ?
agree with hansa about dates of fantasy in // of Andes.
Faso could start one day later maybe ?

[Gipfelstuermer]

Tour du Faso and Tour du Sahel both look like they will be purely for sprinters. I would probably prefer one of them being replaced by a more balanced fantasy tour

there are some spots for fantasy tours to have balanced tours, i would be against cutting real tours in favor of a fantasy one.

That's the principle from February to October, but maybe worth mentioning that it has always been a bit different for the Off-Season for a few reasons. For Faso & Sahel:

- They have not always been official UCI races (Faso since 2005 but cancelled 2014,2020,2022 for various reasons / Sahel since 2023)
- The stages can easily be all sprint stages (with very few exceptions)
- The profiles might not be available early on in detail
- Finding designers for fantasy stage races might be easier
...

On the other hand, as African riders have become more successful in cycling, African races have also gained prestige/popularity over time, shown not only by the UCI categorization. There was also a movie/documentary about Tour du Faso and in 2021 the German Daniel Bichlmann won the race, which helped its popularity, in German-speaking countries at least. Also, at that time of the year, we will already be in the run-up to the 2025 UCI World Championships in Rwanda, further supporting African cycling. In that context, and considering we have the Andes as well, perhaps some flat stage races are not a bad idea.

To summarize, I think it was a good idea from FL to put them in the Pre-Preview and now I see lots of relevant Pros & Cons . Not sure which ones overweigh for me or what could be a good compromise/balance, but I like the discussion

[schappy]

We said in the past Real calendar before Fantasy Races. So why we should change this? Like Gipfel say, the african rider are more now in the good fields, they have real tours in the real Calendar. So we should ride them. And a Full Sprinter tour about more stages then normally is another type of stage races and this can be very interesting. How long will be a cooperation between Sprinter Teams and so on. So for me the Faso Tour will be nice to be in our Calendar.

[Robyklebt]

We said in the past Real calendar before Fantasy Races.

That's the principle from February to October, but maybe worth mentioning that it has always been a bit different for the Off-Season for a few reasons. For Faso & Sahel:

Really no need to bring arguments that already have been answered.

That said, how about cutting 2 fantasy races from the off-season calendar? Put in the real "snooooring" sprint races in Africa, but cut 2 fantasy races. Fewer tours. Reason is really simple, we now overdo it with the fantasy races in the real season 3 this year. One was ok, but filling every hole in the Calendar, now 2 planned for September is really too much for me. At some point it becomes a balance problem, points and money, people who can't ride tours or prefer 1 day races now get disadvantaged too much. They are at a disadvantage anyway with regards to points and money, there was no need to make that disadvantage artificially bigger. Now much bigger. So cut the small tour end of November and the one from the 17th of December. Balance, boys, balance!

Btw the idea to put in Faso, because it's real, but to change it by one day, because whatever, is hilarious. As it is to start it on the 27th, as I just found out after checking. IF we ride it, start 24.10. please, that is when it actually starts this year according to PCS. (Unless PCS is wrong of course) Or cut that too, but don't put in anything else, get our holes in the calendar for people who enjoy 1 day races in big groups.

Now a point that might get more support than those I made so far: Faso or Sahel, rather Sahel, if any, Faso with 10 days is never-ending (until 10 days are over), it makes the planning of the Tour de Pavé harder: 3-7 or 4-8, then the Andes later, Monday start 11-26. Ok would work since we want (yes we do) cut that late November fantasy Tour anyway.

[team fl]

Btw the idea to put in Faso, because it's real, but to change it by one day, because whatever, is hilarious. As it is to start it on the 27th, as I just found out after checking. IF we ride it, start 24.10. please, that is when it actually starts this year according to PCS. (Unless PCS is wrong of course) Or cut that too, but don't put in anything else, get our holes in the calendar for people who enjoy 1 day races in big groups.

Huch. Technical mistake. Should start at 24th obviously.

[Gipfelstuermer]

At some point it becomes a balance problem, points and money, people who can't ride tours or prefer 1 day races now get disadvantaged too much. They are at a disadvantage anyway with regards to points and money, there was no need to make that disadvantage artificially bigger.

Slightly off topic, but if this is the case, admins should consider adapting points and money to make stage races and one day races equally attractive (and to make the life of the calender planner easier.)

[flockmastoR]

At some point it becomes a balance problem, points and money, people who can't ride tours or prefer 1 day races now get disadvantaged too much. They are at a disadvantage anyway with regards to points and money, there was no need to make that disadvantage artificially bigger.

Slightly off topic, but if this is the case, admins should consider adapting points and money to make stage races and one day races equally attractive (and to make the life of the calender planner easier.)

I also think that the balance should be kept. With the smaller division 1, now it looks very hard to constantly stay there as a team that never rides a tour. I remember your comment on my team page summarizing the beauty of the points system that allows one day races only teams to win the division 1 with very good classics seasons. Imo we are already offering too many stage races. One day races next to Poland and vuelta where non existing. Don't punish the managers with even more stuff that is not real/important.

[team fl]

Btw the idea to put in Faso, because it's real, but to change it by one day, because whatever, is hilarious. As it is to start it on the 27th, as I just found out after checking. IF we ride it, start 24.10. please, that is when it actually starts this year according to PCS. (Unless PCS is wrong of course) Or cut that too, but don't put in anything else, get our holes in the calendar for people who enjoy 1 day races in big groups.

Huch. Technical mistake. Should start at 24th obviously.

Ha, I just checked because I wondered, why it differes from my perfect preview. This is the reason: UCI has it listed from 27th November but for 2023. -> https://www.uci.org/competition-details/2024/ROA/71653

will correct it in the next draft.

[team fl]

A slightly updated version. Changes:
- Tour du Faso set on the correct date for 2024. Now it overlaps with the Tour des Pavés though. But it is what it is.
- One more slot of a C4F classic in November and December

[cataracs]

A slightly updated version. Changes:
- Tour du Faso set on the correct date for 2024. Now it overlaps with the Tour des Pavés though. But it is what it is.
- One more slot of a C4F classic in November and December

I'm very against that. The 10 days tour will kill the participation in the most important race of the offseason. (pavés tour)

I'm for canceling this tour. Another long tour isn't needed, there are 3 already.
Pavés tour could be the first Monday if you insist on riding Faso.

[schappy]

i am against cancelling real races for Fantasy Races. But why not the Pave Tour start at 04.11. then it doesnt overlaps with the others?

[flockmastoR]

i am against cancelling real races for Fantasy Races. But why not the Pave Tour start at 04.11. then it doesnt overlaps with the others?

November is already dominated by Andes, wouldn't shift the TdP there. I wouldn't call "not riding Tour de Faso" cancelling. We are not riding so many real races. So in that sense, I am for not riding Tour de Faso, mainly because I believe that 4 stage races (not overlapping) are too much.

I would propose (if you insist on another tour), to put in a very short fantasy stage race (max 4 days) after Saitama and shift the RSF classic on the 6th.

[Hansa]

i am for keeping Faso, how many tours are there for sprinters? not many. it overlaps with tdp? yeah so be it. tdp is a specialist tour, no problem to have something else not with the same speciality overlap.

if we dont get tour de faso profiles to design it thats a different issue

[team fl]

Ok, as far as I see it, everthing is pretty much set but the TdP vs. TdF (Faso! the other one is the Post Giro Criterium: PGC) vs. fantasy tour discussion. So, I try to summarise the arguments (and add mine):

A) leave it as it is: TdP is a specialised tour for Pavé connaisseurs. So having another tour in parallel should not harm the calendar very much. And having 10 days flat stages may lead to intersting dynamics in the peloton. AND there are not many tours for sprinters anyway. And African races sound cool.

B) cut TdF for a "more interesting" fantasy tour: Tour du Faso is mostly flat. Sounds boring. And it is low category anyway with no name riders. So why not have a more interesting fantasy tour instead on a date that is not parallel to the TdP.

C) move either the TdP or the TdF: There could be teams that would love to ride both tours, as a sprint team might have good pavé riders too. Anyways, why not have a better spread calendar for groups with more players? Get the TdP to November or move the TdF a few days so it doesn't overlap.

D) cut TdP: Pavé is horrible, who even likes that? stupid nerds.

E) Fuck it, I don't care, just do what you want. It's all managed by a nefarious group of people anyway. the C4F deep state! drain the swamp!


-> So what should it be? A, B, C, D or E?

Disclaimer: Maybe this questions solve themselves if the Tour de Faso does not provide a profile, etc.

[lennylenny]

Ok, as far as I see it, everthing is pretty much set but the TdP vs. TdF (Faso! the other one is the Post Giro Criterium: PGC) vs. fantasy tour discussion. So, I try to summarise the arguments (and add mine):

A) leave it as it is: TdP is a specialised tour for Pavé connaisseurs. So having another tour in parallel should not harm the calendar very much. And having 10 days flat stages may lead to intersting dynamics in the peloton. AND there are not many tours for sprinters anyway. And African races sound cool.

B) cut TdF for a "more interesting" fantasy tour: Tour du Faso is mostly flat. Sounds boring. And it is low category anyway with no name riders. So why not have a more interesting fantasy tour instead on a date that is not parallel to the TdP.

C) move either the TdP or the TdF: There could be teams that would love to ride both tours, as a sprint team might have good pavé riders too. Anyways, why not have a better spread calendar for groups with more players? Get the TdP to November or move the TdF a few days so it doesn't overlap.

D) cut TdP: Pavé is horrible, who even likes that? stupid nerds.

E) Fuck it, I don't care, just do what you want. It's all managed by a nefarious group of people anyway. the C4F deep state! drain the swamp!


-> So what should it be? A, B, C, D or E?

Disclaimer: Maybe this questions solve themselves if the Tour de Faso does not provide a profile, etc.

if we go for D I propose we cut ALL fantasy tours, offseason purely one-day fantasy races

as for B: what makes a tour interesting? is Tour de Suisse with 2 TT, 4 mountain stages, 1 hilly stage that is for climbers anyway and one hilly stage really more interesting that a tour for sprinters?

with my team i would of course love to do both Faso and Paves

[Hansa]

I am clearly for A, i also dont know why any of these tours has to be boring. Andes can be boring too but it doesnt has to be.

Option C ok for me too but i would be for moving tdp then, but also in the view of one day races i like option A the most.

Wer also could so 3/3 Edition for these tour then for example.

[olmania]

Agree with A

Wer also could so 3/3 Edition for these tour then for example.

also, why not for that. important thing would be to know the times in advance, that would help team to decide which tour to ride and decide forms before the month change

[Tukhtahuaev]

B would be my favourite option, but A would be fine too.
I would be very much against moving TdP at least. End of October is the traditional date that we had as long as I can remember and people might have planned their team accordingly

[Gipfelstuermer]

Wer also could so 3/3 Edition for these tour then for example.

also, why not for that. important thing would be to know the times in advance, that would help team to decide which tour to ride and decide forms before the month change

For info, the editions & times will be finalized with the monthly PDF (as usual).

If we ride both, with TdP being Cat. 2 in-game and TdF being Cat. 1 (as UCI 2.2), I would probably suggest more times for TdP and less times for TdF.