Tax System

[Gipfelstuermer]

Picking up an idea from the chat:

Alive And Dead(13:53): The one thing that I really would touch is the tax plateau for richt teams, I mean the tax increases to reach 70% and than stops at 70%, thats not really fair, as the ultra rich teams should probably get nothing at all IMO

Current system:

Sales Tax = 10% + (Min(Total Capital,20M) - 15M)/5M * 10% + (Min(Total Capital,35M) - 20M)/15M * 50%

A bit complicated formula... what it means:

Total Capital <15M: 10%
15M < Total Capital < 20M: 10% - 20%
20M < Total Capital < 35M: 20% - 70%
35M < Total Capital: 70%

Thinking AAD is right. Why stop to raise the sales tax at 35M? Some teams that are 2x that rich, they pay the same as teams with 35M...

Another point is: The system was introduced when the start budget was only 15M. As we increased it to 20M, maybe the tax should also start later... so start with 20M at 10% and then end with 60M at 90%, for example. So:

<15M: 0%
20M: 10%
25M: 20%
30M: 30%
35M: 40%
40M: 50%
45M: 60%
50M: 70%
55M: 80%
>60M: 90%

More opinions?

Edit: Serious opinions (no useless flaming pls).

[Robyklebt]

Another point is: The system was introduced when the start budget was only 15M. As we increased it to 20M, maybe the tax should also start later... so start with 20M at 10% and then end with 60M at 90%, for example. So:

The problem is that you played around without thinking further than your nose (the base, not even the "spitze") with the 20 million start capital. Everything is connected, I know one guy who actually mentioned that tax problem in the chat, so why wasn't this thought about THEN? It was known. Ah, because there was no formal discussion in the forum or even an official announcement for this introduction, it was a "night and fog" introduction, neither well-thought out nor well-executed.

And now changing things to fit with that shortsighted measure not only wrong, but also fairly shortsighted once again.

As for the 60 million teams... who? Free? So what. Can we stop making changes to the game because of free and RfM? Don't make rules for the outliers, don't make rules because of the things a bit off balance due to the low numbers either, that's (hopefully) and outlier too.

<15M: 0%
20M: 10%
25M: 20%
30M: 30%
35M: 40%
40M: 50%
45M: 60%
50M: 70%
55M: 80%
>60M: 90%

More opinions?

Horrible proposal So if now I sell a guy at 30% if I have 35+ millions, with that I'd get more until I hit 50 millions. More money more money more money. Wrong way. There is maybe 2 things that are worth considering and discussing (I keep them for myself for the moment, see enough react-transition stuff left to do), this is not one of them. Ah, ok, the 20 millions that throws some stuff off balance could be re-discussed. Oh, cut the "re", it would be the first time.

[lennylenny]

Definitely don't agree with the proposal, it just lets everyone have more money to inflate bids on transfermarket even more, what even is the point of market value if the big teams just bid 4.5M for climbers, 3.5M for classics? This would just force smaller teams completely out of the market for top stat youth riders.

What exactly is the goal of changing the tax system? Do you just want to prevent teams from getting ultra rich at like 60M+ team value? This seems more like a half done idea for the sake of change, nothing else.

[schappy]

In my opinion we dont have to Chance everything. The guys Witz More then 45 mio, deserved it. Everybody can try to get so much Money, it is really hard.
In my case i calculate i have to warm Every Monnth 2 mio to keep my big Team Alive.
And i believe in a golden age of rsf.
IF we have More Teams, everybody geht less money in Every race.

[flockmastoR]

Well my idea is half done, thats why I just commented on it in the chat.

I agree with the opinion that the Gip proposal is not an improvement.

My general idea would be: Cut the taxes for the low capital teams, Increase the taxes for the high capital teams, Get rid of the max tax (e.g. 100% maximum tax), progressive increase of tax %, in total no significant change in total expenses

As this proposal sounds radical, I wanted to prepare it based on numbers before stating it here.

Just to make it clearer what I mean:
A team with 20 riders (worth 40 mio) and 10 mio in cash should not get money for selling their riders. Right now, it still gets 200 - 900k for selling an old rider (depending on the rider of course). That would be an additional rich tax of 0.4-1.8% of the team value per sell.

Looking forward to critizism

PS: It is not about "to change everything", or to make a "Lax free or RfM" but trying to balance it more towards the non rich teams.

[Gipfelstuermer]

trying to balance it more towards the non rich teams.

Was just my attempt at achieving exactly that. Maybe not the best proposal for that. Maybe a "rich tax" is enough and we don't need to adjust the lower part (to avoid high auction prices).

[lennylenny]

I think a low base tax is still good to steer newcomers more towards young riders because they can be kept longer and improve past the stats of most riders on the regular TM, but maybe push the 10% base tax to 20M, keep the 70% at 35 and then go to 85% at 50 and 95% at 60, so maybe
10% 20
30% 25
50% 30
70% 35
75% 40
80% 45
85% 50
90% 55
95% 60

This is still a quick thought, i agree with Roby about not putting a band-aid on a band-aid

[Robyklebt]

Edit: Serious opinions (no useless flaming pls).

Please refrain from passive aggressive edits

[team fl]

My short opinion:

- go back to 15 Mio. for a new team and after a reset.
- keep the current taxes but continue to increase them after 35 Mio. accordingly, as f.e. lennylenny already wrote:

70% 35 (Mio.)
75% 40
80% 45
85% 50
90% 55
95% 60

IF you want to change anything. As Mr. Klebt wrote, there was no need for a change in the first place for a running system and no occuring problem. Again, IF there will be a time when it is obvious that 15 Mio. are too little money for new teams, then let's talk about it.

[Gipfelstuermer]

a running system and no occuring problem

A perfect description for this game.

[team fl]

a running system and no occuring problem

A perfect description for this game.

Which is a good sign that the developpers are on the right way, in general

[Quick]

The teams over 70% most certainly don't need the money from the sales. Taking the money away is a dangerous game though.

40m = 20riders. Not more possible. So everything above 40m is more or less unnecessary capital. Doesn't hurt you if I have 5, 10 or 50m sitting around.

What maybe would hurt the game is if I do the logical thing to counter your 100% tax: Build up my value to 45-50m. (So 20 riders + enough for 4 youth guys)

Then I ride every race with 550-600k salary because you'd actively punish me for earning more money at this point.

Once I sold 4 riders and bought my youth guys, tax goes down further and I can earn my 2m/month again while I even get money for the retired riders, so I don't miss out on the profit I lost for riding too expensive.(I might miss out on money, but can't buy more riders anyway, so really just staying expensive is the way to go...)

Just a quick thought...

What do you want to accomplish? Making it harder for big teams to stay big? Then don't increase the tax only once the value is extraordinarily big already. Once you reached 50, 55m you can ignore the money aspect of the game alltogether( I guess, I haven't been there)


Maybe putting 90% at 35m would make it harder - but honestly, the teams you're speaking about became so big because they earn more than they can spend anyway.

[Robyklebt]

You all realize that we have 13 teams with a team value (cash not included) of 35 million or more?

2 of them are active for less than a year, Sattelpuper and Bergwerk, one completely new and thus completely clueless when he started, the other old, experienced, a smart fox who knew exactly what he's doing. Yes, Bergwerk!
Anyway, these 2 teams are in the 70% zone, but others who are here for longer, ride regularly, like Hansa, are not. Different team building techniques plays a part, but also shows that the tax thing already works in containing teams, that it's not easy getting richer and richer, maybe in 5 months BW and Sattel are below that threshold again? It works in cycles.

13 teams at 35+, including cash (which is included when we talk about the tax) maybe a few more, of course is a lot, close to 10% of active teams, only 138 teams have 8 riders or more, so can ride regularly, 76 teams have points (on the second of the month not very representative)
With higher participation of course the % of these 35 million + teams will fall again. With the low participation of the past years the situation now simply isn't a good basis for discussion in what works and what not I think. We shouldn't make long term rule changes based on an exceptional situation.

Plus do a bit of "Why?" and then what Kwick just did very well, what are the effects, what are the possible positive ones, what are the positive negative ones.

Maybe putting 90% at 35m would make it harder - but honestly, the teams you're speaking about became so big because they earn more than they can spend anyway.

Not really correct IMO. 35 millions are reached quite fast by buying 21 year olds and training them. Spend 10 millions on riders in 3 months, 6 months later they are worth 15 millions or so. Doesn't take that much to go over this 35 million threshold.
Once you go into free territory, I don't know what happens, but 35-37-40 are reached quite easily really. Almost automatic if you ride often buy youth riders and decide to go for a big team with 18+ riders. Having cash then of course is a different problem.

[flockmastoR]

Well some very good points mentioned here.

1) You get to the 70% tax quote pretty easy when starting and doing a ok team building, doesn't need to be good just avoid to regularly sell riders, buy new youth riders instead.

2) When you are successfull early, you often end up in the cycles Roby mentioned. In the early successfull phase (team is cheap, you earn a lot of money, you add leaders to the team more than helpers) you accumulate a lot of capital (in terms of team value not cash). Riders get old, capital rises but you cash income decreases, when replacing your old riders your capital falls (as it is exclusevely build up by your riders). Usually you than already fall below the 70% tax quote again if you even reached it in the first cycle.

3) What I miss is such an effect for richer teams. Once you reached a certain level, it doesn't get more expensive to sell riders any more. The 20 riders restriction is good but it also hides the inequality of the (cash) capital distribution.

4) Don't 100% understand the point quick made, but some thoughts about it:
a) The teams over 70% most certainly don't need the money from the sales - well I think thats untrue for the majority of these teams that I mentioned in 2), what I believe is, that teams far above the 70% cut don't need them
b) Then I ride every race with 550-600k salary because you'd actively punish me for earning more money at this point. - when your one and only income is based on races, you need to earn money there, or you consume all your cash to drop from 100% to 90%, don't think thats a strategy. I see your point generally, but I think I am talking about situations that don't drop down to 70% immediatly with what you describe. (as said, need to check numbers first).

The why?
I think right now, unlimited growth is possible once you reached a certain point, which I think is a problem for the game. I think we should decrease the tax a bit early and try to avoid this unlimited growth. I am not certain about the idea, but I have no better one.

[Quick]

I don't see the problem of unlimited growth.

Some teams here have been racing for years without no break and the only one who got maybe too rich is Free? And rfm? Alk maybe too? Donk? Idk because for all I know, it doesn't affect me or the game...

But what even is too rich. I still don't see the problem or difference between 20m in the bank and 2m.

Also decrease the tax early? So while donkey said 70% is easy to reach, you want to make it even easier?

Might add more later, sorry. Have to leave again.

[lennylenny]

Not really correct IMO. 35 millions are reached quite fast by buying 21 year olds and training them. Spend 10 millions on riders in 3 months, 6 months later they are worth 15 millions or so. Doesn't take that much to go over this 35 million threshold.

Even more extreme if trained in stats that push up value a lot, Pablo Abian is perfect example here:
Bought for 95.3% at 21 years old, should be about 2.74M price
Current market value at 4.83M
So 76% increase

[Bright]

Read a lot here, but the thing I disagree with most is lowering starting teams money, dont do that!

As a starter earlier this year I think there would be a huge chance I'd have gotten disheartened and quit. New players should have room to buy a decent team, 15 million just removes competitiveness for new teams. I would understand it if it was for resets div 5 and up, but not for starters. They cant pick up the 50% riders....

As for tax keeping it the same upto 40mln sounds decent and then changing it to 95% when it reaches 50mln.

(A small reimbursment even juat 5% should be in there to keep a tony incentive to retire players before 40)