Team Reset

[Alkworld]

Next on the list for implementation is the team reset and automatically creating new teams. Both I don't really remember that well, as I never used those features (or maybe I had a team reset in 2007 ...). So what should happen?

Team Reset
- only possible from certain division? 5 or 6?
- automatically selling riders? Or is it only possible after selling all riders manually?
- reset balance - higher amount only temporarily for returning teams? See incentives thread

Creating a random predefined team
- there were a few options, can someone list them (should still be available in Flash)?
- maybe adapt it a little? I remember the climbers team having really weak classics

[Hansa]

So team Reset was only possible for Team Div 5? and lower i think.

But with our current low player number we only have 1.5 active Divisons so in my opinion it should be for Div 3 and lower for now.
So that the comeback teams that are stuck in Div 3 with 0 points still can reset.

It automatically deletes the riders, dont know if they get sold or not necesseray to tell them first.

Tried in my test team but cant find the Auto-Team Build buttons.

But as i remember it was possible to build a climber Team.
A Sprinter team.

And i am not sure if it was possible to build a classic team.

[flockmastoR]

I think there also was a Allrounder team. But with the weakish classics it was more or less the Climbers team without a climber.

[Robyklebt]

Latest Updates (2022-06-24)

improved reset

Not in the forum update unfortunately.

But what exactly was implemented, how was it improved?

[Robyklebt]

Hm, got answers for a lot of my other proposals (not really necessary, just opinions, if then done or not up to you) but not here, and this one would be the one I hoped for an answr most? What exactly was implemented?

As I said before, IMO would be sensible to allow the reset up to a higher division, temporarily. But has that been implemented? If yes, until where?

This is not only for the Donkey, but this is information your successors might want to know some day, right now it looks like you'll be doing this a while, but who knows... What if tomorrow the supervolcano around the Laacher See suddenly explodes, laying waste to big parts of Germany... better put as much information in the forum as you can!

Try to document what you implement as much as possible!

[Alkworld]

Laacher See would be dangerous for both Gipfel and myself, so better document now:
Today we noticed that Kelme-Movistar, Div 3, couldn't do a reset, which we thought was fine. However, Kelme was inactive for over a year and still in Div 3, so assuming the getting relegated doesn't work with this low number of teams. So today changed it to Div 3, from where it will be allowed, but that was just a quick fix. The whole topic can still be discussed.
The problem with documenting is that it takes time from the little time there is for fixing things. We should get better there, when there's less urgent stuff to be implemented. At least for someone with access to the code, it's now straighforward to find out how it's implemented.

[Robyklebt]

Getting relegated works, the problem is that to keep the divisions full, Luques did something to prevent inactive teams from being relegated to D7b after the necessary amount of inactivity, He maybe has documented that somewhere... but he wasn't that good with documentation either. Before that we had empty divisions, since we didn't have enough active teams, which created some other kind of problem, but don't remember what.

So that means that inactive teams can really float anywhere between D2 (in extreme cases, see Adunatii something) and 6. Some get promoted with 0 points, some get relegated with the same amount of points, some stay. NOne goes to D7

And I know, time, but still, the more people know, the better it is (see your occasional questions about stuff too, even if Luq-Alk-Gip programming is cleaner and less messy than Buh, still maybe good to have non code watchers now as much as possible)

Anyway, good, now documented and after the Laacher lake obliterates our programmers (good one of them is on holiday) the survivors can then infomr the new programmers.

PS Quick fix is good, permanent solution (the div it was before) when we have a decent number of active teams again, until then a series of changing quick fixes (D3, later D4 etc)

[Hansa]

Hansa Test Team dropped to Division 8 (guess that was 7b before) so not sure how that is prevented for other teams

[Alkworld]

Some time has passed now, teams have returned, resets have been done, people start misusing the reset by now to just rebuild a nice team, so I guess it's time to discuss again:
- Starting from which division should a reset be possible?
- How much money should resetted (and new) teams get?

I'll throw my opinion in the ring now: Reset limited further, so Div 5 would be my suggestion now. I wouldn't go as low as 15M, but maybe something in between like 17M.

[Black-Star]

with the current DIV system and how many teams are active, the lowest you can get if play the game at all is DIV 3, so to still give those you want to play, but need a reset because they fucked up big time with their teambuilding . I think it should stay at Div 3.
When there are more players this could be lowered

money wise I'd say 16Mio

[Hansa]

In my opninion if we give out more money like we do currently we should make them buy more riders.

at 15M for 9 riders we avg 1.66M per rider
at 20M for 11 riders we avg 1.82M per rider
at 17M for 10 riders we avg 1.7M per rider.

-> still more money per rider but also more riders so the can build better teams.

[Chemnitz Pro Cycling Team]

In my opninion if we give out more money like we do currently we should make them buy more riders.

at 15M for 9 riders we avg 1.66M per rider
at 20M for 11 riders we avg 1.82M per rider
at 17M for 10 riders we avg 1.7M per rider.

-> still more money per rider but also more riders so the can build better teams.

Sounds like an idea.
But I'm also not a fan of Div 3 reset - Div 5 is fine. If an inactive team of Div 3 or 4 comes online the first time after x months, they should get the offer of doing one reset as well.

[Radunion]

I think it would help to fix the ranking system. If you do not loose all your points by selling your riders it would take much longer to drop down to 3rd div.

Maybe reduce the size of the divisions to have 4 it 5 divs with active teams. Inactive or unsuccessful teams should still be allowed to reset. So div 3 is necessary without changes in the div system.

PS: maybe change the transfer market as well (div 1-3 instead of 1-5). I bought a good sprinter . This rider should not go to an active, experienced team.

[Robyklebt]

Reset: Right now is including D3?

Go down to D4 immediately IMO the minimum.

Go down to D6, so the original, sensible way, ok, IF you admins are ready to give teams that haven't been active and are stuck in D3-5 the reset possibility by hand. Once. The question of course is what to do with new teams that are swept up to D5 fast and are way too expensive due to the 20 millions starting money. Right now due to the lack of players you can be in D5 very fast, and then with no reset, a tax that is already over 5%, it becomes difficult for them. Then the 50 days for them too, for real newcomers right now maybe still having the possibility to reset in D5 would be good. So maybe right now I would vote for reset possible D5+, as Alk says. BUT only if the admins are ready to do the hand reset for comebacker stranded in D3-4. If not, I'd say D4+, (but still the D3 hand thing, would just be less)

Money for newcomers and for reset?

We are back to the discussion that we never had when the 20 millions were introduced.

How to help new teams. For comebackers 15 Mio never was a problem, see AAD that was on top of the game within a year after starting with 15 millions. 20 just makes it easier, but it's really not necessary for them.

New teams: The 20 millions (the advertisment on the start page is a bit strange too, if you have no idea about the game, 20 millions means nothing at all) no strings attached IMO has 1 advantage, but disadvantages too.
- the newcomer that knows nothing about the game will be tempted to spend the money on leaders. 2 climbers, 2 sprinters, 2 beginners classics, result: Very expensive team. Yes, can fight for wins (but experience lacking, which is as important as good riders, but good managers will learn fast, so after 10-15 races they can fight for wins) but it's almost a trap, for many a reset will be almost unavoidable. Even in 8 riders races, they risk being way too expensive, earning very little money if any at all, having a team that isn't sustainable on their hands after a few races.
-The tax. Starting at 15 millions gives you flexibility even without the reset. Tax at 5% until... Buh for some reason never wanted to tell us exactly, but think we figured out it was at 17 or 18 millions? Starting with 20 it's at ??? But already it's much harder selling an unwanted rider.

The Hansa way makes sense, if 20 millions, then 11 riders. Or even better, 9 riders for 15 millions, then can buy 2 extra riders with the remaining 5 millions. That takes care of the too expensive team risk. It doesn't take care of the tax problem.

My old idea was to give them 15 millions AND a free rider, a rider at 27, with useful skills, something like 50-84-70-50-50 with 45 reg. Or less, his salary should be below 35'000. A good useful not too expensive rider Free rider, doesn't count in the team value, but you can't sell him. He will retire automatically at age 34 (or 35, 36). Having a rider like that for free, would help them stay cheap, while still having at least one useful flat rider, would still have give them the flexibility to sell unwanted riders they got ignorantly at the start (2 80 TT riders, at least one clearly not needed, with tax already up to ? you make more minus than at 5% obviously), would still allow them to make some money by training youth riders and sell them at 22-23 for a nice little profit.
And it would be consistent with the general c4f financial part, 15 millions gives you a 375k salary team, with the 35k man they might go a bit over at times, if they leave a useless 25k guy home, but not like now where they risk being way more expensive.

Of course it might make sense to change the whole 375k base. to something a bit higher, after all when the game was made we didn't have 70-80es, 60-80 was the classic. And the base was 9 riders, no the standard is 8, so 2 base changes, calculate from 8 riders not 9, put it up due to better riders than in 2006. That probably at some point should be looked at. But a small increase, not a big one. And actually for later, not for now.

Short version for lazy readers:

More money=better riders
But more money=higher salary, smaller profits, bigger likelyhood of reset
More money=higher tax, less flexibility

So my brilliant proposal or what Hansa said both better than the 20 millions. Or something different that nobody thought of yet.

Just keep in mind what the goal is!

Edit: Average salary for a 9 rider race is 41'666, so the free extra rider could/should cost up to that, or let's say 40'000, not 35'000, wasn't calculating and clearly not thinking either. Something like Klaus König from Moja with more reg basically.

[Radunion]

A very simple solution would be to relegate the team to div 6 after the reset (at least I hope this would be simple technically ). The manager can build a strong team there but will miss out on the strong leaders.

[flockmastoR]

Also like the Hansa proposal, not sure if it is technically easy to restrict that but it would solve most problems Donkey refers to. Getting more usefull riders helps newcomers in nearly all matters. Having more riders fit for consecutive days, beeing able to ride more and try more in the first 20 races.

In general I am for flexible Divisions that account for the number of active managers. So the goal in that way would be that the current number of active managers influence the size of the Divisions for the next month. Goal here should be, that divisional membership with privileges and restrictions is unaffected by the number of active managers, that inactive teams are getting throwin into division 6 and not strand in Division 3 with no activity withing a year. But I am aware that this would need some more thinking + probably complicated to implement it.

[Team stevens]

Radunion's idea is good, after a reset you go to the d6-7 market. You have access to less powerful riders.
At the moment, 20M doesn't help many people.

- A new manager needs more qualitative support, even if it means having a more developed system of self-creation of teams (even giving him a team of 11 riders with a value of 22m) I don't care. THE problem isn't the value of the team, it's the efficiency of the riders.

- A guy who is coming back and who already has 800 races on the game ( like radunion or even me in september 2022) WITH an economic potential of 20m destroys the game with ease. You give me 20m to reset I take 4 guys of 20, 1 of 21 and 1 of 22 then 4/5 between 24-26.
For 9 months I don't sell anyone, I buy 1 rider a month. Congratulations, I've got the strongest team in the game.

We just need to find a way of making the reset beneficial for newcomers and penalising for others. At the moment, there's nothing very punishing about doing a reset when it should be a last resort. AND I find that it shouldn't even help the returnees that much.

I vote for :
-can be done in d3
-d6 return
-17m

[Alkworld]

Let me summarize all the ideas mentioned above and also tell you, how tricky they are to implement (using T-Shirt sizes XS, S, M, L, XL):
- change reset division limit: XS
- change new team amount: XS
- change reset team amount: XS
- 15M and a free rider for newbies: L (especially treating this rider differently would be lots of work and has potential for bugs)
- all inactive teams (e.g. 0 riders, 0 current points, 0 races in a month) go directly down to Div 6 (actually just a pool of inactive teams, maybe not a real division): M
- change division system to make upper divisions smaller (proposed in another thread as well?): M
- allow reset in higher divisions only for returning teams: S - How to define a returning team? No races since ...?
- max average value of riders for new teams: M - When to limit it? Before the first race? First X races?
- auto-relegation on reset to only get to the low division market: S

Did I miss anything? Or misunderstand?

[Robyklebt]

There's long term and short term goals that are being mixed a bit here too though.

Can we agree on the long term goal for resets in what Division? That it should be only in D6+7?

And that the system we want for new teams and comeback resetters shouldn't be a temporary solution but that we better get a solution that in principle should stay and not have to be revisited soon.

Anyway, the Donks idea gets an L for difficulty, cool, must mean it's a great idea. (Ok ok, no connection between that and difficulty, since it seems difficult and buggy better forget it, even if I think it would be a solution that makes the most sense)
Ratings that maybe need double checking?

- max average value of riders for new teams: M

This one sure it's M? Basically Hansa's idea meant number of riders, so for 20 millions 11, for 17 millions 10, the average value will then be automatic, no? Ah, cheapened riders, hm... .not for newcomers, but reseters, see the problem.

- auto-relegation on reset to only get to the low division market: S

Here could be more than S I fear? Luques did some fix so that there's always the "right" amount of teams in the divisions. Before that some divisions were virtually empty and the promotion-relegation didn't work properly, some that should be promoted weren't, etc. Having a D3 team jump to D6 might recreate that same problem?

[Gipfelstuermer]

Considering the mentioned pros/cons, I would support this solution in size S:

- allow reset in higher divisions only for returning teams: S
- How to define a returning team? No races since ...?
- auto-relegation on reset to only get to the low division market: S

Perhaps no races since 3 months? (or if easier to implement: less than 10 logins in last 3 months)

On the third bullet up there I fear the same as Robyklebt though:

Here could be more than S I fear? Luques did some fix so that there's always the "right" amount of teams in the divisions. Before that some divisions were virtually empty and the promotion-relegation didn't work properly, some that should be promoted weren't, etc. Having a D3 team jump to D6 might recreate that same problem?

If you have time for an M solution, I would support this:

- change division system to make upper divisions smaller (proposed in another thread as well?): M

Perhaps combined with FL's idea from another thread:

For a bit of realism: Why not have 18 "World Teams", 18 "Pro Teams" and the rest are "Continental Teams"? Just a quick thought without much effort

Those 3 would replace Divisions 1-5. Divisions 6-7 could also be put together potentially. But it's really a different problem you are solving then. For the unwanted, frequent team reset, the T-Shirt in size S would be a good solution already

[Robyklebt]

- allow reset in higher divisions only for returning teams: S

So the newcomer that advances fast from D7 to D5 then can't do the reset anymore? Penalizing newcomers. In extreme cases you end up in D5 in less than a month after you start.

[Gipfelstuermer]

- allow reset in higher divisions only for returning teams: S

So the newcomer that advances fast from D7 to D5 then can't do the reset anymore? Penalizing newcomers. In extreme cases you end up in D5 in less than a month after you start.

Fair point. The idea of this thread was never to penalize newcomers (if anything, the opposite) so we need to ensure that remains the case as we do with many other initiatives for newcomers. So if the above is implemented, it should be more precise:

- allow reset in higher divisions only for comeback teams and newcomers

Both would need to be defined, e.g.
Comeback Team = No races in last 3 (?) months / Less than 10 (?) logins in last 3 (?) months
Newcomer = Less than 50 (?) races

Alternatively, we could change the reset lock. Currently 15 days for everyone? Make it number of races instead? The more experienced you are, the less often you can reset. Just an idea. Should be T-Shirt Size XS or S, too.

[Robyklebt]

About relegation:

How about giving -1 points if a rider retires without being sold, so retires at 40? Then old teams that didn't bother to sell their teams, and have no money left, need a reset, are more likely to end up in D6 or D8 even. They still could get up a division by chance of course if they are in D6 and nobody retires, but more often than not IMO shoudl be enough to push them down.

Doesn't solve the problem of the ones that are in D3-5 without money already now, but somebody like Falkenbier for example, 3 riders left, D4 right now, should be pushed down to D8 like this. Still possible to get up again later but smaller chances, less problems with no reset in higher divisions. Or could make the possible promotion from D8 (I think only happens when D6 becomes too small? or is there no promotion relegation at all there now?) dependent not on luck (or eternal points not sure what is now) but on team value, then moneyless teams would just stay in D8. Go down and stay.

For the ones there now, a script that counts the number of 40 years old retiring in the history, most then puts them at the bottom of their divisions (always), might put all the potential comebackers in need of resets down to D6/8? Some might have sold their rides but ended up with less than 17 millions, for them the hand reset by the admins remains the solution I fear. Maybe put a notice in the transfermarket? If you're in need of a reset, click on this bottom, the admins will review your situation.

As for the rest, seems to have died already a bit, the discussion I mean.

Donks does a little review:

Newcomers: 17 millions, minimum 10 riders as Hansa said seems sensible. Question is only the 10 rider requirement, somehow with only 8 riders needed, having 10... people might just think, fuck that, sell 2 or 3, buy 1 for more quality. So not sure about how this can be made well technically, not just have to buy 10 riders at first, but then go down to 8 or 9 before even the first race.

Reset: Newcomers and comebackers same? In a way makes sense. But the same potential problem as above, comebackers in low Div might then sell rider number 9+10 immediately to get a better number 9, thus going around the thing, but since they are experienced the risk of ending up with a too expensive team isn't that big, so ok. In D3-5 the risk of this go-around is even smaller, 50 day rule. Buy, wait 50 days, do it, who cares.
Other option is comebackers (meaning teams with more than x races) only get the old 15 millions, but IMO they could get those 17 millions too.
The one weird thing with this is only that then it becomes a requirement to have 10 riders, while many races are for 8, with the weirdness mentioned above that that involves at some point, and in general only 9 riders needed, but ok, unless we go for something brilliant as my original idea... that's the way it seems to make the most sense.

Reset in what divisions: Right now D3-8 I think. IMO change to at least 4-8 immediately. And think about going 6-7-8 as it should be in reality immediately as well, if the admins are ok with the occasional reset by hand.

Size of divisions: I'll have my say in the correct thread at some point.

Reset depending on number of races done: Yeah, why not, if you're in the right division, the frequency could depend on the amount of races and the number of resets you've done. But don't think a reset in 2011 should really count in 2023 anymore either.

[Alkworld]

I'm still a friend of making the divisions smaller, then also those other ideas make more sense, e.g.
- go down to Div 6 / low div transfer market with a reset
- inactive teams go down to Div 6 automatically ("inactive" would have to be defined)

For the new teams, forcing them to spend their money wisely I also like and it would now ( = after the latest TM changes) be easier to implement, we could have such restrictions for the first X races, only allow money wasting later. Then experienced resetters can buy what they need, while the newbies will have teams they make money with.

[Robyklebt]

Where is the appropriate thread for divisions etc? Can't find it...

Short here my opinion then: (I can write a much longer but not necessarily more informative post whenever I find the right thread)
-Keep the same number of divisions
-Don't forget that the market is conceived for the divisions as they are now. The 278 youth riders (if the number is still the same, not shown anymore?) that are on at any time, are for the number of teams we have in D1-5 now. That should then be cut, so longer frequency between new rides appearing.

I'm still a friend of making the divisions smaller, then also those other ideas make more sense, e.g.
- go down to Div 6 / low div transfer market with a reset
- inactive teams go down to Div 6 automatically ("inactive" would have to be defined)

That means staying at 20 millions for start and reset?