Now to RFM.
He actually managed to bring up actual criticism after I asked him, not just the wishy washy general whining. But he didn't find the forum.. .too bad, Idéfix after all was useful too, he copied it here. Good, because I definitely prefer to have stuff like this in the forum. Then it doesn't get lost in a flurry of posts about something else, people who miss the right moment can read back here:
So RfM: Next time in the forum and English please, after all it might interest people who don't speak french too.
RideforMoney<15:44>: Ah et pour le calendrier, je vais le dire d'ailleurs vu que tu me demandes :
- Ca fait des années que les gens se plaignent sur tes choix de mintakt abusés, pour des courses qui durent 3 plombes alors qu'elles n'ont pas besoin d'être. On attend toujours les changements.
Here you speak about my races I suppose? So the ones I design? Not the ones I put online. But ok, it's 3 separate issues:
1) My fantasy races: It has been very clear since forever that the designer decides his mintact. LIke it, don't like it, it's the designers choice. That has always been respected. If somebody else was in charge of the calendar I would not want him/her to change my mintact. And while people have indeed complained about that a lot, there's always been people who have said they like it too. And no, I don't plan to change my policy further, I already changed from 50km to 30km minimum (sometimes I do 29!), but my fantasy races will stay at 30 km minimum. And as Coesitz said up in this thread: If we change that 30km mintact to 15 it's 7'30". I'd rather save those in the sprint actually...
Mintact simply increases the quality of decisions IMO. And it allows you to stay away from the computer for longer if you discharge your shit in the toilet, as is custom. Or if you read something in another tab. Or if you have your mother that decides to have an hourlong skype-session. It's more relaxed in the mintact. I like it (and I'm not the only one either) and I see no reason to change it in my fantasy races. And deny anybody the right to change it too.
Now if we had a policy on it, I would abide by that. 20 minutes mintakt fix for fantasy races? Ok... I'm against it, if I design a criterium, I want to put the mintact on the last km, if I design a normal race I want it at 30 km or more. My races, my decision unless there is a policy that everybody abides to. Same counts for everybody. 5km mintact in fantasy races. As stupid as I think that is, it won't be changed. But if we change the rule, go to a fix km thing, then it will have to be changed to 20 too.
This has actually nothing or little to do with my job as calendar assistant.
2) Fantasy races by others: Not my design, not my mintact, as stupid as they sometimes are, I don't change them. And don't check them.
Now I'm still the guy putting them online, yes, so I'm to blame for all long mintacts. In a way yes. And for all short too mintacts too of course. Which are not popular with everybody either.
3) Real races: Again, I put mine at 30 km + And in real races the mintact can be changed, hasn't happened often I think, mostly feedback in the calendar thread after somebody posted the profile. Do we have many RKL real races? Well, yes, this year was ok, but either 2 or 3 years ago for some reason everybody stopped designing in February. Designing for Giro/Tour/Vuelta, yes, Gaurain often does the Belgian things, love him for that, but the rest? It was almost nothing else. I was left with designing most of the rest, especially the annoying countless small tours. There were months I had over 30 designed races in my profile folder... (or 25?) And then you'll get the 30', at this point that's the way it is. I'm not going to design my ass off and then design badly (which IMO it would be to have shorter mintacts). But this can be changed, if enough people complain about it... btw, why are TT the mintact from km 1 on? What's the point, wouldn't we want to save our precious minutes there too?
So the only on that really has something to do with me "doing shit" as you put it (in the chat, maybe earlier) is no 3, not 1+2. The easy solution is more people designing real races. If I design.. .again, I think those 5km mintakt in extreme cases are bad. (And think those 60 km mintacts if a race is only 110 km long make little sense either, I'd go with where it makes sense or 30 if not) so unless somebody can come up with a really good argument (so far not, I can see that 10 minutes more make a difference if the race is long as it is was with the 244 km stage, but not when it's a 150-200 stage) why should I change my designing to something I deem worse?
Le choix des horaires de façon arbitraire (encore que ça, quoi que tu fasses, qqun gueulera) surtout pour les courses d'un jour. / Les courses toujours occupées par les mêmes designers alors que d'autres sont dans l'oubli total (boycottés? je sais pas, à toi de nous le dire)
Arbitrary choice of times? Sorry, I reject that, I do put thinking in it. And yes, for fantasy one day races I decide, when I put it online. I'm not going to write it down in the preview. Short version on how I decide: As little overlap with tours (starting times) as possible. Change it around a bit (NoPik doesn't liek that and is getting ignored for the moment, later later) Try to have all 5 main blocks covered. That now is often down to 4.
I reject it even more for tours, the times for the tours are always (might have forgotten it once or twice, and in October the late change somehow made a PDF without times for the 2 late tours appear) in the PDF. So everybody has the opportunity to complain. And actually everybody should look it over and give his input (except Idéfix). That actually helps.
Forgotten designers? Boycotted designers?
Forgotten happens, whisbone is such a case, I often forget to check what he has in his vault. One reason is that he never posts new ones in his thread anymore. Other than that? I see who posted new races in his thread. That's been mostly OL this year. Some others, Falkenbier, Tukh, Rapid? (or last year more) Donkey. CC lately not much, POkemon has posted some now, was basically inactive for a year or so before that. Some others sometimes. Those races get programmed. The ones in Asia-Africa etc mostly in Winter, of course just to make sure we have enough races in that region in the off season. But if more is designed there I don't need to save them until then...
So I first check the ones that are active, next the ones I know there are races left, basically Luques, Pokemon, SM, Gipfel, CC, Huns, if I don't forget it Whisbone. Not going to check, but I'm pretty sure we have races (some of the classics of course) from 5 or more designers in the calendar this month, as is pretty usual.
But yes, in general many fantasy races are from OL, probably the most by far, what exactly should I do, limit it? Ok, I try not to have 15 races by him in the calendar per month, and don't think he ever has... but if he designs a lot, why shouldn't he have more races than those that design less. And I'm not really sure which designers are forgotten and boycotted either. Whisbone Huns etc the ones that haven't posted for ages, yes, but I occasionalyl remember and check
Là par exemple l'enchainement des courses abusées niveau énérgie. Ca fait 3j (surtout pour ceux qui sortent de ton tour des Andes) qu'on se tape des courses très longues/coûteuses en énergie qui font que certains (dont moi) skippent les courses
Funny you should mention that.
Robyklebt wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:38 pm
(the mistake here was putting hill pavé on the 16th
Now, if you would actually read and not just assume, you would know that I myself have come to the conclusion that putting the energy sapping hill pavé there wasn't such a good idea. Bad decisions happens, something I have never denied. Your perception is different? That's why I demanded you to back up your complaints with actual examples and facts as you have done.
Yes, this here and the same with the flat pavé race earlier actually, and end of October with too many times the same race too were all far from perfect. Now if people think the correct way to address the issue is saying "you do shit" like you did in the chat.... well, it isn't. Mistakes happen, bad decision happen, Every month. But less since I took over from Pokemon I think. (And you're free to disagree)
T'as le droit de défendre ton point de vue, pas de soucis. Mais écoute ta communauté au lieu de rester dans ton monde. Justement t'es l'un des membres actifs du calendrier (et je pense qu'on en est reconnaissant) mais n'en profite pas pour IMPOSER tes choix/ton avis sur la situation tout en sous entendant que l'avis des autres est naze
Ah, but are you sure I don't listen? When did I actually impose my choices? Well, yes every fantasy race. But do we really want a vote for every fantasy race that is programmed? Do we need a committee that approves every choice? Do I need to post what I plan to put online on Sunday, then put it online on Monday (Monday and Friday were my usual uploading days, but lately that changed, right now it's a bit whenever) Sorry, no. We get minimal feedback for the PDF, I'm not going to post what I plan to put online with regards to fantasy one day races for 2 people who'll look at it and say "whatever".
Other than that, what do I actually impose? Times are in the PDF, and they change after feedback almost every month. IF it's close, let's say 1 person( me, I do post my opinion, but count myself as a normal user vote when taking the final decision on what to send to Luques (and I send him 2 proposals at times too) are for the PDF that is up, 2 against, but it's the 27th already, the PDF has been up for over 10 days, opinions come in the 25th and 26th... then I will recommend to Luques to stick with the PDF that is online now. 2 reasons, 1 is that if it has been up so long some people assume it's fix. Second reason, in doubt I assume that no comment means support. The same if 1 person is for it and 2 against and I'm one of the too against, I'll still tell Luques to stick with the old one, for the exact same reasons. Same situation but it's the 19th? I hope for more feedback, but on the 19th my recommendation would be for change, since it's still early.
Again, I don't see this perception of me IMPOSING stuff on others as based on facts. It's based on assumptions. Assumption that I don't see to have any base in reality.
Mintact is designer, designing has little to do with the job as assistant (in theory I see it as designing a bit and cleaning up, making sure all is designed, in 2018 I think it was, the cleaning up was designing almost everything for a while)
When do I impose times and number of editions?
When do I impose what kind of fantasy races? Yes, the attempt is to have sprints and hilly races, much less mountain races because most tours are for them, they don't need, that I impose if you want...
Fantasy Tours? Yes, there the almost final (final final is Luques, but that is mostly theoretical in the end, often he doesn't have time) decision is mine, what I try to do is a) as few specialized tours as possible. Andes, Pavétour. Then during the Andes a sprinter friendly tour (which IMO was too sprinter friendly this year actually, especially if you look at the 2 other tours we have this month). Occasionally a tour for classics. But not necessarily every year, and if hopefully not one that has 5 classic stages and nothing else. Try to avoid getting more fix tours in the calendar, tours that we have every year. If we do one day we'll have no more free space for new tours)
And then adapt to what is the main program: So for the Dec tour parallel tour: Let's assume it's 5 days: First at least one day for sprinters a must IMO, 2 better, that's the non-specialized part: Then: If it's Hawaii the parallel tour will not be that mountainous, ideally max 1 stage for them and GC rather not. If it's MIT the GC for climbers is ok. 1 mountain stage that makes the difference ok. Or if there is a longish TT a second one ok too. Yes, here you can say I impose that too, but has it been that horrible? (Plus in the end there are not that many stage races around that can be found without Sherlock Holmes AND Hercules Poirot in that messy database, so in the end it often is just what can be found and comes closest to what I expect.
Just a little explanation how the calendar actually works (facts vs assumptions again)
THe plan of how it works is the following in the real season .(Fantasy is later, this month for example waiting for the Dec tour vote to finish)
10th Donkey sends Luques a first PDF
15th Luques posts the PDF
People comment, criticize
20th Donkey sends a second PDF with improvements
21st LUques puts it online
25th PDF is finalized, if changes of course Donkey sends Luques another one on the 25th...
That's the theory, in practice most of the time this year only step 1 has been on time. When step 2 was on time, then step 3 was lacking.... and so on.
c'est là où je trouve que tu fais de la merde, j'assume
Did I manage to change your opinion?
et comme tu pourrais me dire " bah RFM, dessine si ça te plait pas" et que tu aurais parfaitement raison. Juste que c'est un choix de ma part de ne rien faire de ce point de vue car c'est pas ma came
Well, one thing to remember, I'm not POkemon who used to rage "those that do nothing always complained the loudest" and ignore every criticism, going out of his way to do the exact opposite (offseason 16? 17?) 2 people comment, both say 4 pavé races is a bit too much, why not stick with tradition and do 2? He kept 4 and made them all cat 2, because he likes pavé. Next month we had 1 instead of the traditional 2, when asked why it was because none was to be found in the right region) But I'm the one imposing my choices on the poor populace?
But ok, design if you don't like it.
It is indeed an option. But not the only one, if you don't like it, there is one more option. Make your voice heard. And THAT is important. We need more people commenting on the calendar, and less people whining generally in the chats. Like in race chats spreading what in the end is fake news. And yes, one thing that I do impose, is do it in the forum. Ideally not only calendar, but since that's my job, for the calendar. PUt it here, not in some race chat or the general chat, stuff written there risks being ignored. Not even necessarily on purpose, but sometimes I do need my beauty sleep, it's not by chance that I'm that goodlooking, I take my sleep seriously. Maybe special times sometimes. Forum, then I can see it later too, I can answer later, I don't risk forgetting, others can see it too.
