Team sizes

[Rockstar Inc]

well great idea...one helper for the sprinter...and every fucking parasite who's profiting will be stronger with 2 helpers and every puncheur-team will ride attack for attack and with 1 fit guy at the lastest you are fucked up at the third or fourth...congratulations...

hilly races are totaly crap with 6 riders, even 7 are too less

[Luna]

good example the race at the 4th...a great and open race between HS and KS...but with the brilliant, really fantastic idea to ride it with 6 riders it's cristal clear how it will end...10 flatteams bring in their sprinter and are able to reach a sprint if they work together...with the old number of riders or maybe 8 it would be more funny to do the race...

So it is no great and open race between HS and KS, but more a open race for those who chose the right riders for the right groups. Leave your sprinters at home. Chase the groups only for attacking by yourself at the given moment. Nice profile. Offers different opportunities. You can also build a big group in the beginning. Make the peloton give up halfway and fight it out between the remaining 20 or 40 riders.

Other races are for HS and KS. Those will still remain. But this one demands a different approach.

[Us Lecce]

Tomorrow a race with 6 riders...o.O
Maybe with 8 riders it could be funnier than 9,don't know,
but 6 riders are not enough for sure...
If there are "Superfavos" like for example Ysaye or Terranova...or Ysaye, then
the teams have to work alone,and as a favo you won't have any chance to controll
the race alone...on the other side you can't say that the other teams have to help,
because they don't have to...what i mean: a flatrace with 6 riders, maybe, a hillrace or
a mountain race with 6 riders? nearly impossible in my opinion.

[the riders]

Hi all,

i don't understand the problem when we ride with 9 riders.

Race with less riders than 9 destroy Favos and helps Parasits.
I have the same opinion like Leece.
When i ride with one good leader, he need maybe 2-3 good helpers and then i have 2-3 riders to control...how should it work?
3 Good riders and 3 helpers are to expensiv for 6 riders and the chances are not very high to win the race. So everybody rides with one leader, 5 helpers and everybody says 'i'm not the favo, how should i control the race'. So you must ride like a parasit-team to earn some money and have some chances.

ok for sure, this rule helps smaller Teams, Parasits and so on...but some month ago, the new rule helps them too. I mean the rule that a rider who is in tempo couldn't help another rider.
If i ride with one leader and one co-leader...it doesnt helps me, because one make tempo and i couldnt help the leader. all Teams with one leader have the same power like me and i pay dubble costs.

Now races with 6-8 riders...look at the teams who rides nearly every day. I have actually 15 riders...i must pay 70% taxes...how should i earn money for this team when i should ride with 6 riders? Maybe i dont want ride like a parasit, i need can take just the strongest helpers for my leader. strongest helper => more expensive...i pay 50-100k pro race when i should ride with 6 riders. if i sold out some riders, i get 'nothing' because of 70% taxes.
Only for helping smaller teams and parasits? The favos helps them enough, because everyday they must do tempo for them.

Somebody said, the sprinter should stay at home, so we have a chance to escape. Take a look to the last races...some teams rides with 2 Sprinters with 7 riders. of course they dont ride beecause they need them as a helper.
We have less attacks...for sure...i should it work? Example...2-3 riders for the final, you need minimum 2-3 helpers. so how you should attack?

I try to avoid this races with less than 9 riders. That means i can't ride nearly everyday. Maybe this is the aim, that everybody ride not 30 races a month. but i'm not sure if this is the best way for this game.
In two month i can only make tempo with green or blue, because i have more than 9 riders, maybe i'm a favo and smaller teams gets more chances when i ride only blue or green

So please guys, give us back all 9 riders!

Sorry for my bad english :/

[Luna]

Somebody said, the sprinter should stay at home, so we have a chance to escape. Take a look to the last races...some teams rides with 2 Sprinters with 7 riders. of course they dont ride beecause they need them as a helper.

So it's perfect. You escape and the teams with 2 sprinters don't work -> you get through and have the chance to win out of the group.
Make that 5 times and they will also leave at home their 2 sprinters.

We have less attacks...for sure...i should it work? Example...2-3 riders for the final, you need minimum 2-3 helpers. so how you should attack?

But somebody will win. That's for sure. I don't see why you shouldn't be in the mix for it. You're more experienced than many others. So you may well take advantage of it.


Btw I don't plead for doing every race with 6 riders now. It seems more as a test from Leso. When it's 8 on average it would be a good basis.

Many 9 rider teams lose one or two helpers early in the race. Then they also ride only with 7 or 8. And they still have their chances, even by controlling the race for a good leader.

[Quick]

You make Noobteams stronger, and strong teams weaker...thats it. 8 rider race, i come with Jaco, Denis, Slevin and Joeri... Probably never win because i have to do everything alone and then other takes the advantage. 8 riders, i come with Denis, Slevin, Vaencia would be more effective becuase i could let others work and then take advantage... Or i just take Jaco and Joeri, cry that i dont have the team to hold the peloton, attack with one early, others work in the peloton and i hold the peloton at the end and win. What should there be good about that?

[NoPikouze]

My 2 pennies of the day

6 riders is a bit extreme. Anyway I wasn't really for it. But testing is ok.
7 riders is still doable. More or less. And that's what is nice for the small races, imo. As I said earlier, I don't really like seeing "tour de france" teams on a Criterium de Lafontaine. With 7 riders, not easy to control alone, but still more or less doable if you're lucky, or not pushed too hard, or helped a little bit. That sounds quite realistic to me. Like it.
Anyway all the small races don't necessarily have to be for 7 riders. Maybe sometimes 7 and sometimes 8.

[Rockstar Inc]

the main problem of this new way:

you rip off the ass of every damn team who's specialised on one day races...for sure, the big tours are as usual 9 riders in the future...

and what is with team who only ride one day races, there aren't so many high category one day races in RL...not even close the number of high cat tours...

this teams have to ride mostly cat 1 or 2 races, let my guess...70% of their races will be under new circumstances...and with your and aux new proposal they are really fucked with 7 riders, okay sometimes they have the big luck being allowed to race with 8 riders

[the riders]

So it's perfect. You escape and the teams with 2 sprinters don't work -> you get through and have the chance to win out of the group.
Make that 5 times and they will also leave at home their 2 sprinters.

It means i leave every leader at home and ride with some noobs? You're joking, or?
I can sell all my leaders...ah no, i have 70% taxes...so i have leaders but i let them home?

But somebody will win. That's for sure. I don't see why you shouldn't be in the mix for it. You're more experienced than many others. So you may well take advantage of it.

Thats the point...everybody attacks with two riders...we have a group of 30 riders in front, finish.

Btw I don't plead for doing every race with 6 riders now. It seems more as a test from Leso. When it's 8 on average it would be a good basis.

Start a voting and we will see the result.
I would prefer to start with Teams with 12 or 14 riders...but thats not fair for smaller teams.
But 6 riders are not fair for bigger teams.
Why i build up such a big team? Because i want ride nearly every day, i want to controll the races, when i'm a favo. Now i have a big team, high taxes and now i can kick their asses because i should attack for victory. 150km do nothing and get the victory or 150km controll and gets the victory...i dont understand it really.
Every Race we speak about parasit with their leader and n helpers and now we have a rule, which says 'yes, ride like a parasit. You dont need helpers for your leader'.

Many 9 rider teams lose one or two helpers early in the race. Then they also ride only with 7 or 8. And they still have their chances, even by controlling the race for a good leader.

Ok, all Favos controll the last 20km with 3 or 4 riders and we dont start with 4 riders.
Fact is every favo need helpers. If i must save helpers i need more expensiv helpers to have a chance to controll it. 6 strong riders are to expensiv for kat 1 races. if i must ride one month with costs about 50-100k, i must sell riders. Thats fairness?

[Quick]

NoPik? I have been Favo for many times - against big groups it's nearly impossible to controll it alone with 9 riders..., dont tell me it's possible with 7.

[Luna]

Most races would be for 8 riders. Less riders only at races that are designed for less rider, like Southland at the moment (btw mass sprints every day and the mountain finishes are won by climbers).


Mountain races rip off the ass of every sprinter team, flat races destroy the chances of the mountain teams like cobble races do, races with 6 or 7 riders harm the control junkies' teams. Everybody has his days where he is not necessarily the favourite and where he has to adapt his strategies.

@Rider: Is everybody forced to sell his climbers because there are many non-climber races? Or his sprinters because of the mountain top finishes and the cobble races?

[the riders]

7 riders is still doable.

You ever ride one race alone with some hills? Its difficult to controll a sprinterrace with 7 riders. But a classicrace with 7? its impossible.

[Luna]

But somebody will win. That's for sure. I don't see why you shouldn't be in the mix for it. You're more experienced than many others. So you may well take advantage of it.

Thats the point...everybody attacks with two riders...we have a group of 30 riders in front, finish.

You got it. Finally a kind of real bike racing that's constantly suppressed at RSF for most of the times.

[Quick]

I still didn't read any point why 8 should be better than 9? Probably i have to wait for the next KIA-commercial to discover that...

[NoPikouze]

Hm yes of course you're right about big groups. I don't see them often so i forgot about that...

[el Galactico]

You dont even try to understand what are the problems from the others Luna? You are really to focused to change that. We need more changes than only make races with 6-8 riders instead. It doesnt work like that.

For sure, perfect for your team if nobody can control races with some hills in it. Your win rate will increase for sure. You will find the right moment for attacks. But think of the others.

I think we should solve some other problems first. Why do riders lose energy if the peloton rides only green? Thats nonsense.
Why do they need helpers the whole time? I dont think that the helpers have to bring them a bottle every km. Nonsense as well. Change the helping system, no helpers needed for green tempo for example. Then i have no problem to control a race with 7 or 8 riders. Most time you dont need all helpers for tempo but they are very important for helping. So change the helping system and i from my side have no problem to ride with 7-8 riders. And i think the chances for teams like you will increase nevertheless.

[the riders]

@Rider: Is everybody forced to sell his climbers because there are many non-climber races? Or his sprinters because of the mountain top finishes and the cobble races?

Of course not. But when i must attack every race because i cant controll it i have to sell them.

[Luna]

You dont even try to understand what are the problems from the others Luna?

I know the problems of them. It's the same problem as for a sprinter team at a mountain finish. Is somebody reading my answers to most of the raised concerns here? Who is the one avoiding to see the other side?

For sure, perfect for your team if nobody can control races with some hills in it. Your win rate will increase for sure.

Higher than it already is? How that ^^

You will find the right moment for attacks. But think of the others.

I think of the others. They hang on my wheel, waiting for me to find the right moment to attack, following me and beating me at the end. So where would be the big advantage for me?

@Rider: Is everybody forced to sell his climbers because there are many non-climber races? Or his sprinters because of the mountain top finishes and the cobble races?

Of course not. But when i must attack every race because i cant controll it i have to sell them.

Now you are speaking as if every race shall be ridden with 6 or 7 riders. That's not the case. I wrote this:

Most races would be for 8 riders. Less riders only at races that are designed for less rider, like Southland at the moment (btw mass sprints every day and the mountain finishes are won by climbers).

And with 70-90% races for 8 riders you can calmly keep your captains.


And please take also note of my post from 10:52 pm.

[the riders]

Now you are speaking as if every race shall be ridden with 6 or 7 riders. That's not the case. I wrote this:

You know, it difficult enough to control one race with 9 riders...why 8 or less?
Why always everybody cries for smaller teams?
Why nobody say 'shit, big teams have a hard life, they must ride often because their are favos and they must pay a lot because they have big teams and they need big teams to ride every day'?

Most races would be for 8 riders. Less riders only at races that are designed for less rider, like Southland at the moment (btw mass sprints every day and the mountain finishes are won by climbers).

Southland biggest crap. First i want ride it, but than...i take a tt-man to keep my leader in the race. i take a sprinter beacuse its to boring the hole flat races wihout him. And i take my leader (climber). I take strong climber for helping the leader and i take 3 flat-skill-men => more than 450kfor 7 riders. A lot of half-etappes with 7 riders...i dont have a team with 70 regeneration. Thats why i dont ride it.

And please take also note of my post from 10:52 pm.

Which one, dont find it, sorry.

Why you dont start a voting. more votes for pro...ok, we ride with 9 riders.
More vots against it, you can change the system.

[Quick]

But somebody will win. That's for sure. I don't see why you shouldn't be in the mix for it. You're more experienced than many others. So you may well take advantage of it.

Thats the point...everybody attacks with two riders...we have a group of 30 riders in front, finish.

You got it. Finally a kind of real bike racing that's constantly suppressed at RSF for most of the times.

That wasn't ironic? lol

[Rockstar Inc]

And with 70-90% races for 8 riders you can calmly keep your captains.

so great news, breaking news...then please tell leso, aux and .... that they should forget their crap with

Aux:

Real
GT 9 riders
UCI 1.1 6 to 8 riders
UCI 1.2 4 to 6 riders
Nat. min.1-max. 6

Leso:

It could be a direction for RSF:
Proposal:
Cat 6 Races and GTs : 9 riders
Cat 5 Races and Cat 4 Tours: 8-9 riders, can be definitively defined/discussed for every race/tour.
Cat 3-4 races and Cat 2-3 Tours : 6-8 riders
Cat 1-2 races and Cat1 Tours : max 7-8 riders

@riders: he don't want teams to be able to control, he wrote it several times...

@luna: maybe too offensive asked: you started two propose all this one, two weeks ago...is it coincidence that your team is old and aux team, who's the second biggest pro, has to change some riders in the next 2,3 month too?

and what about teams who build their team in the last past 2,3 month? the ordinary way, 1,2 leaders and some good helpers...if leso changes the calender like he proposed some posts ago...they are really fucked...the yhave their 70% tax if the team grew or the guys are training really well...

main-point for me: 70-90 with 8...my biggest concerns are gone, still don't like it - but i think it's to handle somehow

edit: and yes, before somebody mentioned it, yes i'm talking for my team too...not only, but a good part of my meaning

[the riders]

@riders: he don't want teams to be able to control, he wrote it several times...

I thought that was ironic. i can't believe that Leso, Luna and Aux really want, thats impossible that somebody can controll a pelOton.

Please make a chioce in 110 days...than my Lizent ends and i can decide if i want change my team...sell all leaders, buying some noobs for attacking and a parasitleader or leaving rsf.

I ask again...why you start a voting?

[Luna]

Now you are speaking as if every race shall be ridden with 6 or 7 riders. That's not the case. I wrote this:

You know, it difficult enough to control one race with 9 riders...why 8 or less?

It's extremely eaay to control a race with 9 riders without any help from other teams. Not difficult.

Most races would be for 8 riders. Less riders only at races that are designed for less rider, like Southland at the moment (btw mass sprints every day and the mountain finishes are won by climbers).

Southland biggest crap.

But that's how it is. They have even one rider less in reality. Don't ride it if you don't want to. I also don't ride pure sprinter tours.

First i want ride it, but than...i take a tt-man to keep my leader in the race. i take a sprinter beacuse its to boring the hole flat races wihout him. And i take my leader (climber). I take strong climber for helping the leader and i take 3 flat-skill-men => more than 450kfor 7 riders. A lot of half-etappes with 7 riders...i dont have a team with 70 regeneration. Thats why i dont ride it.

You're forced to concentrate on one goal, yes.

But even in our Southland field there is Steiermark with a sprinter and a climber. Big salary! But he will get it back beacause he's under the top 3 more or less every day and will probably be at the podium in the overall classification.

And please take also note of my post from 10:52 pm.

Which one, dont find it, sorry.

You should turn off the daylight saving time in your control panel

I wrote:

But somebody will win. That's for sure. I don't see why you shouldn't be in the mix for it. You're more experienced than many others. So you may well take advantage of it.

Thats the point...everybody attacks with two riders...we have a group of 30 riders in front, finish.

You got it. Finally a kind of real bike racing that's constantly suppressed at RSF for most of the times.

Why you dont start a voting.

That wouldn't help to convince anybody from the one or the other side.

That wasn't ironic? lol

Why should it. Please explain.

Why shouldn't the race from Nov 4th be decided by a 30 man group? What's so vicious about that? And why shouldn't the better teams have the better riders in that group? It doesn't necessarily favour the weaker teams.


@Franco

Yes, i changed my view on that in the meantime. It's not necessary to ride every cat 1 race with 6 or 7 riders. Make it 8 for most of it. Or let the designer decide as long as it's a fantasy race.

@luna: maybe too offensive asked: you started two propose all this one, two weeks ago...is it coincidence that your team is old and aux team, who's the second biggest pro, has to change some riders in the next 2,3 month too?

My team is always old^^
And the next few tranfsers are already planned for months: The next Escobar and a weaker climber as a helper for him, both one-legged.

edit: and yes, before somebody mentioned it, yes i'm talking for my team too...not only, but a good part of my meaning

I must admit I also talk in my own interests. It's not that I would have the better riders for races with 8. But I have this desire for transferring bike race feeling to RSF. I just would have considerably more fun with that. That's my personal interest in this matter.


Rider:

I thought that was ironic. i can't believe that Leso, Luna and Aux really want, thats impossible that somebody can controll a pelOton.

With 8 riders you still are able to control a peloton. With less it get's more difficult. And that's indeed what I want for races with less than 8.

EDIT: And the TTT from Southland was not that long that you were able to make a big difference with a time trialler on board

[the riders]

It's extremely eaay to control a race with 9 riders without any help from other teams. Not difficult.

Sorry, but its not easy. classic races for example. Teams like Quick Step have big problems to control it alone and Quick Step is really a strong team.

You're forced to concentrate on one goal, yes.

But why? Its really to boring when you ride 9 days just for 2 with a hill for the gc.
In reallife you sit on a bke and has fun, but here i sit in front of computer.

And please take also note of my post from 10:52 pm.

Which one, dont find it, sorry.[/quote]

You got it. Finally a kind of real bike racing that's constantly suppressed at RSF for most of the times.

You are kidding me, or?

That wouldn't help to convince anybody from the one or the other side.

You dont convince somebody. Just aksing. 100 pro 50 against it...ok, you do it. where is the problem?

With 8 riders you still are able to control a peloton. With less it get's more difficult. And that's indeed what I want for races with less than 8.

Ok, why for example leso often don't rech a classicsprint when it is so easy?
Please show me...classic or sprinterrace...control one day alone. I dont believe that you control teams like Quick Step, Gala, Hansa, kmt, me... alone.

EDIT: And the TTT from Southland was not that long that you were able to make a big difference with a time trialler on board

Not a big, but you know in gc every second is important.

[gaurain rx]

Discussion becomes to be a bit "extreme".

Southland example is kind of bad! Southland with 7 is quite cool. If you want to take a gk leader + a big sprinter + a TT guy, thats your problem. I think 75% of the teams at the start of the tour the France played MAINLY for only one of these 2 goals separetly : Sprints or Gk.

Saxo, Astana, BMC, Omega Pharma, Radioshack, Liquigas, AG2R, Euskaltel, Caisse d'Epargne, Cofidis.. Gk

HTC, Lampre, Milram.. Sprint

Sky (Wiggins?, Boasson Hagen), Garmin (VandeVelde, Farrar), Katusha? (Mc Ewen, Rodriguez), Cervelo (Sastre, Hushovd)... Both

The rest

And saying a team with 9 riders is able to controll the race without help seems kind of false! It's quite impossible. Anyway with 7; 9 or 11 rider, in 90% of the races, you need some help.

First, change the energy system. Then, change the number of rider/team