RSF Classics for the offseason calender

[Robyklebt]

Another point, I think it might be a good idea to change the dates around a bit next winter. As it is now I, and others who ride the Dec tour and the Andes (or try to) always miss the same ones...

[Robyklebt]

Nothing happening here, so the Donkey posts something, good otherwise he'll forget.

I propose Popaya - Santa Roza, (26.01.2021) for c4f classic next winter. Unfortunately very small groups, but at least during my race I thought that with a bigger group this might be a very interesting race, with the steep climbs then the 40 km flattish downhill at the end.

[Robyklebt]

- Denain – Huy (04.05.2020): My absolute favourite! First part cobbles, second part hilly! I know, France/Belgium not really the region for winter classics. But maybe it could be ridden in early November. Or let's make it a summer classic!

As requested we reride it in May. But still cat 1, don't think we should put fantasy races at cat 2 in the season

[team fl]

Discussion for C4F Classics for the offseason calender 2021/22 starts with an overview about last year's selection (number in brackets is the race category):

October'20:

- none

November'20:

- Gran Permio de Lanzarote (3)
- GP Brescia (3)
- Taca Setubal (2)
- GP Coimbra (2)
- Tour de Okinawa (2, is that a real race?!)
- San Francisco classic (3)
- GP Canyon de Chelly (3)
- Villalba GP (2)

December'20:

- Jable - Al Farandis (2)
- Colombo - Agampodigama (2)
- Grand Prix de Agadir (2)
- Dolisie - Point Noire (2)
- Makete Kylea (2)
- Kisoro - Kabale (2)

January'21:

- GP Letzebuerg (3)
- Napier Bluff Hill Circuit (3)
- Boucles de Wallis et Futuna (3)
- GP de Papeete (3, TTT)
- Hobart Hills (2)

Feel free to suggest your favourite fantasy races as C4F classics. Just bare in mind, that they will be ridden from November until January, which means autumn/winter weather for the northern hemisphere (although in the new version every day's weather is the same...).

[team fl]

Same here as for the offseason calendar.... Guess we have the same classics as last year

[Robyklebt]

NOminating races to be new fantasy classics or asking for fantasy classics to lose their status is not only allowed, but actually desired! If I'm the only one nominating nothing will happen, since for any change we need at least 2 nominations....


My nominations so far:

Kick Taca Setubal. It's not a baad race, the end actually is kind of intriguing, fight between sprinters and hill sprinters and classics, with attacking possibilites towards the end on +4 as well. But after all just not that special either, and with the long approach, 180 km until the last 20. Plus it really makes it a big cluster just before the Andes, we could do some of the races parallel maybe, but European races need to be over soon, weatherwise, even Portugal I claim.

Gran Premio de Lanzarote: I don't really see what's so great about it. So I nominate it to be downgraded to category 2. To me just not really exciting. Ok, it's a leso redraw we've been riding the last few years, but looking at the original it doesn't seem more exciting to me really? If I manage to get it down to cat 2 I'll probably then propose to kick it.

New in:

-Santo Domingo - Bahia de Ocoa (17.11.21) Very interesting profile, sprinters vs hill sprinters vs classics, probably different outcome in every group. With the hard first climb followed by a softer second one 30 km later and then still 40 km to the finish, normally I'd say it's for sprinters. Our edition this year then wasn't, but ok, small group, so... Anyway, would love to ride this again next year. So nominated.

As I said though, as long as nobody else cares, nominates things, nothing will change.

[Gipfelstuermer]

My nominations so far:

Kick Taca Setubal. It's not a baad race, the end actually is kind of intriguing, fight between sprinters and hill sprinters and classics, with attacking possibilites towards the end on +4 as well. But after all just not that special either, and with the long approach, 180 km until the last 20. Plus it really makes it a big cluster just before the Andes, we could do some of the races parallel maybe, but European races need to be over soon, weatherwise, even Portugal I claim.

Gran Premio de Lanzarote: I don't really see what's so great about it. So I nominate it to be downgraded to category 2. To me just not really exciting. Ok, it's a leso redraw we've been riding the last few years, but looking at the original it doesn't seem more exciting to me really? If I manage to get it down to cat 2 I'll probably then propose to kick it.

Agreed.

For new off-season classics... nothing I could nominate so far, but will try to remember putting something here if I see an interesting profile in the next few weeks.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Sumba GP designed by Tuk was a nice race day. Interesting as it can be won by sprinters or hill sprinters or late attacks. Could become a classic perhaps.

Edit: This Ganiari - Kalachuri Temples designed by OL was also interesting with the hill without sieb-km at the end because it opened up for many attacks. 128km and 7 riders also OK as a mix, but not sure if too short to become a "classic".

Edit 2: Kasr El Boukhari Extreme designed by Taka was also a nice race with an interesting profile. A fight between classics and hill sprinters, but you also need pavé to win there. Well, I guess this race depends a lot on the composition of the peloton. Today very nice and balanced with poke, alk, aad all having good classics/pavé rider... So Sumba GP and Ganiari - Kalachuri Temples probably better as a classic for a larger group of teams.

Edit3: Itabirito - Ouro Preto designed by Poke gets 3 votes from Bear, Poke and me. Insane race but the pavé is real in Ouro Preto and it was good fun today (although I did not win!!! GRRR!!!)

[team fl]

Let's do some adapetd copy and paste .

Discussion for C4F Classics for the offseason calender 2022/23 starts with an overview about last year's selection (number in brackets is the race category):

October'21:

- none

November'21:

- GP Canyon de Chelly (3)
- San Francisco classic (3)
- GP Brescia (3)
- Gran Permio de Lanzarote (3)
- Ganiari - Kalachuri Temples (2)
- Aizawl Cup (2)
- Villalba GP (2)
- Taca Setubal (2)
- GP Coimbra (2)

December'21 (besides the fixed races like Pavé de Noel, Sylvester races, etc.):

- Kisoro - Kabale (2)
- Makete - Kylea (2)
- Grand Prix de Agadir (2)
- Colombo - Agampodigama (2)
- Jable - Al Farandis (2)

January'22:

- GP Letzebuerg (3)
- Napier Bluff Hill Circuit (3)
- Boucles de Wallis et Futuna (3)
- GP de Papeete (3, TTT)
- Hobart Hills (2)

Feel free to suggest your favourite fantasy races as C4F classics. Just bare in mind, that they will be ridden from November until January, which means autumn/winter weather for the northern hemisphere.

[Robyklebt]

Finally got around to commenting here.

Praise Gipfel! He proposed stuff!!! Long live the Gipfel.

But after praise, of course here comes the criticism.

- Much better to make a new post each time! Activity, the topic looks active and more people might then propose something too! Actually I was thinking about proposing one in January? February, but then thought fuck it, don't always want to be the only one, and didn't.. Now of course don't remember what wonderful race that was... .so more posts better!

Situation right now (assuming the quoting and writing agreed means Gipfel agrees with my proposal... we've had people quoting me, saying they agreed with me and then posted the opposite)

Out votes
Taca Setubal 2

Downgrade:
Gran Premio de Lanzarote 2

New:

-Santo Domingo - Bahia de Ocoa (17.11.21) 1
-Kasr El Boukhari Extreme 1

Then 2 rather difficult cases:
-Ganiari - Kalachuri Temples: Well, that already IS a category 2 c4f classic. So not sure how to count this endorsement. You want it up to cat 3? You want it to be ridden twice as cat 2?

Itabirito - Ouro Preto: 3 votes? I only read directly from one here. Bear is active, he can post here. Poke is active, he can post here. As a max right now I'd count 2 votes here, as a maximum, maybe just it's just 1 too.

Anyway, I'll check out those proposals later (not today) too, to see if I want to back one of them as well, so they get more votes. Even if I doubt I'll support the temples again...

Right now with the low participation 2 votes are enough to go in/out/up/down. Might become more with participation.

[Robyklebt]

Finally got a look at the Gipfel proposals, no second vote for me for any of those. (But everybody else is free to give one or to propose other good races as c4f offseason classic.

Missing from the FL list is Dolisie Point Noire. Last year cat 1, I blame the saboteur. The misspelling bothers me too, should be Pointe Noire, but shouldn't be a reason to sabotage it down to cat 1 and to forget it now)

The hill pavé thing (remember the race somehow after seeing it, won it with Lambert, found it incredibly boring, maybe because it was clear I was going to win it) is in, with 3 votes and a protest by RKL because he really demands that people who support it actually post that here.

More participation is needed here though...

[schappy]

I have a proposal for the off seaseon, but i dont know if they liked from others. I want to ride at every 27. January the Oswiecim Memorial Race to remember to the biggest crime in the human History.

For the other race i have to look at this year. The last two offseason i didnt ride here.

[Robyklebt]

My first proposal for offseason 23/24

- Bosque Estatal Toro Negro Cup (17.11.22) Interesting race, for strong hill sprinter teams most likely, but since there are not that many, it will be a big question mark often. Lots of classics with similar sprint, does anybody want to ride for them. Do the not so strong hill sprinter teams chase successfully? Do flat sprinters come back? Or will it end with an escape winning (seems most likely). Excellent design, the +3 near the end makes it even more interesting. And it even has an excellent mintact.

[lennylenny]

proposal from me for 2023/2024:
all 3 races of El Triptico de Colombia, all three with a very interesting profile and some one-day races for climbers in the off-season

[Hansa]

proposal from me for 2023/2024:
all 3 races of El Triptico de Colombia, all three with a very interesting profile and some one-day races for climbers in the off-season

the 2 races i rode were really interesting and hard races. i like them too and also think they could be good offseason classics

[team fl]

Same procedure as every year. We need to select homebrew C4F classic races for the offseason calendar.

Criteria for suggestions:
- The race has to be a fantasy one day race designed by a C4F player
- The race has to be ridden at least once before. You can also suggest races that have already been C4F classics before of course.
- The race should be in a climate that is ridable (with a few exceptions), best in the southern hemisphere
- Former cat. 1 races get cat. 2
- Former cat. 2 race get cat. 3
- Former cat. 3 races stay cat. 3

Here are the classics from last year:

November:

- GP Brescia (Cat. 3)
- San Francisco classic (Cat. 3)
- GP Canyon de Chelly (Cat. 3)
- Gran Premio de Lanzarote (Cat. 2)
- GP Coimbra (Cat. 2)
- Villalba GP (Cat. 2)
- Aizawl Cup (Cat. 2)
- Ganiari - Kalachuri Temples (Cat. 2)

December (I do not mention the yearly christmas and sylvester races):

- Jable - Al Farandis (Cat. 2)
- Colombo - Agampodigama (Cat. 2)
- Grand Prix de Agadir
- Dolisie - Point Noire
- Makete - Kylea
- Kisoro - Kabale

January:

- GP Letzebuerg (Cat. 3)
- Napier Bluff Hill Circuit (Cat. 3)
- Boucles de Wallis et Futuna (Cat. 3)
- Hobart Hills (Cat. 2)
- GP de Papeete (Cat. 2)
- Itabirito - Ouro Preto (Cat. 2

[Hansa]

Hm I would really like to ride

Denain - Huy again (ridden on May 4th 2020) designe by poke:viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3197&start=175#p97233

I remeber that race and it was a nice profile with even a climber fighting for the stage win but overall a pretty hard race.

But i guess it doesnt fit the rideable climate criteria...

November is in the fall / autumn in Denain and is typically the 5th coldest month of the year. Daytime maximum temperatures average around a cool 9°C (49°F)

https://www.weather2visit.com/europe/fr ... vember.htm

although the historical data for Denain in November shows at least in early November tempereatures of 10-15 degrees:

https://world-weather.info/forecast/fra ... mber-2022/

[Robyklebt]

Falkenbier requested it too after the first edition. Put it in again in early May the year after as cat 1. Then forgot...
For me a better solution than having Europe cluster the off-season. A better solution of course only if GipfelandDead have a better memory than me...

[cataracs]

How recent can the races we suggest be? Like from last month or so is fine?

[team fl]

How recent can the races we suggest be? Like from last month or so is fine?

I havent thought about that because that seemed to be obvious to me, that riding the same race twice in the same year/cycle seems a bit odd. Then again, nominate it if you like it. No "rule" against it

[Hansa]

What happens to this topic? how many nominations does a race need to get in how many to get out? is there a voting on what gets in and whats not? when will that happen? will nothing happen at all because not enough teams mentiones anything?

[Gipfelstuermer]

What happens to this topic? how many nominations does a race need to get in how many to get out? is there a voting on what gets in and whats not? when will that happen? will nothing happen at all because not enough teams mentiones anything?

As it happened, it's a split responsibility for now.

1. FL creates the off-season calendar with the dates identified for RSF classics (as he did that many years in a row)
2. Month-by-month AAD picks the off-season classics for those dates (in his role as [fantasy] calendar planner), taking into account the comments here.
3. Month-by-month I will combine those with the real calendar (if any real races) and double-check if it makes sense in the context of all other races.

Any suggestions/feedback on the races will be helpful for the three of us

[flockmastoR]

What happens to this topic? how many nominations does a race need to get in how many to get out? is there a voting on what gets in and whats not? when will that happen? will nothing happen at all because not enough teams mentiones anything?

As it happened, it's a split responsibility for now.

1. FL creates the off-season calendar with the dates identified for RSF classics (as he did that many years in a row)
2. Month-by-month AAD picks the off-season classics for those dates (in his role as [fantasy] calendar planner), taking into account the comments here.
3. Month-by-month I will combine those with the real calendar (if any real races) and double-check if it makes sense in the context of all other races.

Any suggestions/feedback on the races will be helpful for the three of us

Well, the mentioned races will be considered for sure. I still lack the time to get an overview on the RSF classics topic. I will just check that and give you an update (hopefully still in September).

Mentioned new races:

Europe:
- Denain - Huy (ridden: 04.05.2020, suggested by Hansa, Falkenbier, type: hilly with early pave)
- Oswiecim Memorial Race 2 (ridden: 21.06.2023, suggested by schappy, note: suggested date is rejected, if ridden then in the Europe cluster)

South America:
- El Tripico de Colombia: Trofeo de Bogota (ridden: 05.02.2023, proposed by lennylenny, type: mountain)
- El Tripico de Colombia: Trofeo de Medelin (ridden: 06.02.2023, proposed by lennylenny, Hansa, type: mountain)
- El Tripico de Colombia: Trofeo de Cali (ridden: 08.02.2023, proposed by lennylenny, Hansa, type: mountain)

Caribbean:
- Bosque Estatal Toro Negro Cup (ridden: 17.11.22, proposed by Robyklebt, type: hilly)

I am a bit confused, when I look at the FL list of fantasy classics and compare it to the real calendar. In November 2022 there have been additional cat 2+ races like "Tour de Okinawa" and "Taca Setubal". Were these RSF classics or did they just get a wrong category at that year? (Didn't check any other month right now).

How was the procedure of including new races and how were those selected that need to be removed? Could think of some voting procedure for the available spots per month. Include all existing RSF classics and the new ones (that fit to the same region) and give as many votes to any manager as there are spots. Or Probably better to split it up in regions. That would mean that for Europe we could have a voting between:

GP Brescia (Cat 3, OKT-NOV)
Gran Premio de Lanzarote (Cat 3, OKT-NOV)
GP Coimbra (Cat 2, OKT-NOV)
[no clue Taca Setubal (Cat 2, OKT-NOV)]
GP Letzebuerg (Cat 3, JAN)
Denain - Huy (NEW)
Oswiecim Memorial Race 2 (NEW)

Probably for Europe even more complicated as those races have some special places (New year's Race, Off season starter). Any suggestions?

[flockmastoR]

Ok as a read more of the last years' answers both up and down voting is possible. But with no down voting so far question remains how to chose the fixed set of RSF classic spots

[Gipfelstuermer]

Ok as a read more of the last years' answers both up and down voting is possible. But with no down voting so far question remains how to chose the fixed set of RSF classic spots

It's also new to me trying to manage the selection. I also notice FL reserved 13 spots for RSF Classics, but mentions 20 spots from last year plus other car2+ races you discovered. Are additional spots fixed more spontaneously? Was the offseason longer? Or more densely planned?.... Ok, looked it up. Last year 18 planned in the off-season preview, then 20 (or more) ridden. Now only 13 planned.

Maybe it's just imprecision, maybe intentional. Anyway, I help with the downvoting then:

- GP Brescia: A strange competition for the real life Trofeo Citta di Brescia. Tries to be the off-season starter, but that was just irregular in the past, e.g. last year was Lanzarote. Also, I am not sure about it's Lombardia-type of terrain classic, taking place in same month as Lombardia even sometimes.... So let's rather find a nice offseason-starter and stick to it for the future. Now too late this comment probably but 2024 we can think about that ^^
- GP Lanzarote: Not my favorite as off season starter. Somehow it's a very average race. Don't know what makes it a classic, really.
- GP Letzebuerg: It does have its famous spot in the calendar and it stayed there for years (unlike Brescia) but I never understood why? I live near Letzebuerg and it can be quite miserable weather here on new year's eve. Snow/Ice on the hills is not rare at that time of the year. Plus, we have lots and lots of great luxembourgish races during the season, so no need for an off-season race there normally. By the way, cycling season never stops in Luxembourg, but they focus completely on cyclocross in Winter, very much like the Belgians.

Ok, after 3 downvotes, I have 1 upvote (should be a principle maybe^^ if we really need to reduce, which I doubt though): A race that has not yet been ridden. In fact, a race that is not even finished. Alkworld started the design for the following race when he worked on the new editor: Neuss - Trier. That could be the (new) equivalent to Tour de Herne. New admins, new jubilee race Even though luques would deserve one, too? And maybe even AAD? (He lives too far away to be included in Neuss-Trier unfortunately.)