New UCI Calendar

[Bear]

I know its a WT race but I doubt anybody will buy a leader in rsf just for this race. And it’s just a fact that they canceled the race already months before the new season started. If it would be canceled due to money issues for example and thinking of a situation without Covid-19, would we ride the race then?

[Rasmussen]

I think some mistaken the value of TDU in today's cycling. It is now a very established World Tour race.

Did we cancel Catalonia in 2020?
Did we cancel Pais Vasco in 2020?
Did we cancel Tour de Suisse in 2020?

No, no and no! For good reason we rode it on the originally planned date!

Same for one day races like E3, DDV, Eschborn-Frankfurt, San Sebastian, etc.... We did not cancel!

So we will also ride TDU 2021.

Yes we didn't canceled the races. We rode it because we decided to ride it at the beginning of the year when we planned the calendar. We just stuck with our calendar and if we would cancel all races that didn't take place in 2020 we had too less races...

Now the situation is different from last year because we can plan the calendar without the Tour Down Under. We can take alternative races in the calendar like San juan or Langkawi or Colombia or whatever is in the calendar, I didn't checked that so far.

[cataracs]

Sounds like 2021is going to be a "normal" cycling season. So just treat it like usual?

We have the calendar and we know there will be no TDU, then no need to ride it is my opinion. If RFM & co whines about no tours in January, then put a fantasy tour somewhere. Riding a pure fantasy tour in the offseason is more Rsfistic than riding a cancelled real tour.

[Pokemon Club]

My opinion about races cancellation depend of the mood I am, but one thing is sure, it is that there is nearly all the races that are registered in 2021 calendar https://www.uci.org/fr/route/calendrier.
Maybe we can decide a rule like "we don't ride each races which are cancel 1 month before we ride it", or someting like that ?

[Gipfelstuermer]

My opinion about races cancellation depend of the mood I am, but one thing is sure, it is that there is nearly all the races that are registered in 2021 calendar https://www.uci.org/fr/route/calendrier.
Maybe we can decide a rule like "we don't ride each races which are cancel 1 month before we ride it", or someting like that ?

Í like the idea of such a rule but I think it is kind of a dangerous rule. Would we have ridden Giro d'italia in May 2020 then? Not always easy to decide if a race has been "cancelled" or "postponed". Some races have never been ridden in real life like Catalonia, Pais Vasco & Tour de Suisse in 2020. Better to cancel them because they were cancelled in real life, too? I think our calendar would be a bit empty then... In my point of view it was a smart decision to ride them on the originally planned date, even though they were cancelled.

So, although I really like to ride real races on real date (including postponed races), probably makes more sense to stick to 2020 rule: Real race on originally planned date (no matter what).

[Robyklebt]

Sounds like 2021is going to be a "normal" cycling season. So just treat it like usual?

We actually don't know that, normal season.
I think there will be cancellations, normally not as many as 2020 of course, but doubt all the races will be held. Especially races outside Europe, starting with San Juan, then Colombia, then the Middle Eastern races are at risk I think, races that at least in part rely on big WT teams showing up. With travel restrictions, quarantines etc. all the bubbles might not be enough to save some. But for the moment they seemed planned, even if the other day when I checked some races on the PCS calendar had (TBC) written, guess that means to be confirmed.

As I said above, I expect us to follow our 2020 rules in general. See my first post here. But of course they can be changed, this for example

Maybe we can decide a rule like "we don't ride each races which are cancel 1 month before we ride it", or someting like that ?

would be a new rule.

But a change of the 2020 policy would need a sizeable majority... not 3-2 or so, 5-0, then ok. I take silence as agreement more often than not (if an idea is actually stated somewhere relevant, so in this case silence to me sounds like agreement with the status quo, meaning 2020 rules) Another problem of course is that some people are too uniformed, too arrogant to actually KNOW the rules we had for 2020, (Gipfel knows them, others too)

So short: Expect cancellations, expect that they will be dealt with the same way as 2020.

Now Down Under doesn't directly fall into any 2020 rule, because it has been cancelled even before the season started. (Ok, technically just as it started since the UCI in its unparalleled wisdom somehow starts the season in November, while contracts start in January...)
That's why IMO it's justified to come up and be discussed separately from "normal in season covid 19 cancellations". Of course it is a Covid 19 casualty too, so deciding that it's a "normal Covid cancellation" works too. But that classification is not automatic in this case, the early cancellation BEFORE the season (let's ignore the UCI) started makes it a bit different. And might not be the only one, maybe some races will be cancelled in the next month too, then deal with them the same way we deal with Down Under.

If I'm not mistaken so far we have the following proposals for Down Under
-design fantasy. (1)
-ride 2020 (2)
-cancel (3)
- If ride 2020 but as cat 1 was proposed too.

Since my preference for cancel over ride 2020 is sort of 52-48 I didn't include myself. Plus my opinion changed anyway.

They just announced today that they will organize a 4 day sausage local tour instead:
https://tourdownunder.com.au/blog-artic ... nuary-2021
Relevant part:

followed by a 4-stage National Road Series (NRS) race with Men’s and Women’s stages held on the same day, showcasing the Barossa, Adelaide Hills and Fleurieu regions.

Participation I guess local Australian riders mostly, CT teams etc. Maybe Richie Porte etc can participate if they are in Australia anyway, no idea.
Anyway, this to me looks like the best solution, ride this 4 day thing as category 1, as "Festival of Cycling" Donks supports this 90% (with the remaining 10% now for ride 2020) And will still overlap with San Juan I think, as usual I oppose changing that... (hopefully in the majority this time, not like Dauphiné...)

But it's not the only race cancelled already:

https://www.procyclingstats.com/races.p ... ter=Filter

Amissa Bongo, Langkawi, no problem, didn't ride them most of the time anyway. Yorkshire overlaps Romandie and Asturias, so no problem either, depending on how many people play it wouldn't be in the calendar anyway, if they cancel Romandie again before we finalize the April calendar and have no profiles according to the 2020 rules it's Asturias, so we don't need Yorkshire either. (and if Asturias is cancelled we go back to Romandie, all according to those 2020 rules)

1 day races? Evans, Torquay, Tacx? Cancelled already, what do we do? Cancel or ride the last available profile? I would have no problem with cancelling, already announced now. Tacx might not even be because of Covid, if they cancel that early.

On the idea to ride cat 1

And if somebody thinks we have to ride 2020 profiles or fantasy profiles please use category 1 and not the normal category.

As a general rule? Even for in-season cancellations? IMO worth thinking about, races that are cancelled already when the monthly calendar is finalized get a lower category. IMO all cat 1 is a bit harsh, but -1 would be fine. So if the Giro is cancelled it's only cat 4. (Postponed is another issue, stays cat 5) The problem here is a bit that we would need more than just Gipfel checking the categories in the preview, there's sure to be forgotten changes, and maybe he doesn't catch all either....

And we don't need to decide all now of course, but what to do with pre season cancellations can be decided now.

So for the moment:

Down Under: I now newly propose their 4 day replacement event. (now 1 vote) Tiny majority for the moment for cancel (which as it stands would mean my recommendation to Luques would be keep)
Other stage races for the moment no issue: But if others become one? Here I guess it's the same as for Down Under tiny cancel majority.
One day races? The Australian ones and Taxc? I'm for cancel there. (Taxc 100%, the Australian ones being surely directly Covid related, less, but still, 75% let's say) (Or if they organize it as national something like the Down Under replacement, ride that possibly, as cat 1)

[Hansa]

I think our rule was if sth is cancelled and sth parallel is not we ride the parallel thing. So im fine with riding the 4 day downunder thing.
My favorite solution.

2nd favorit wouldbe to ride 2020 downunder.

[Rasmussen]

So for the moment:

Down Under: I now newly propose their 4 day replacement event. (now 1 vote) Tiny majority for the moment for cancel (which as it stands would mean my recommendation to Luques would be keep)
Other stage races for the moment no issue: But if others become one? Here I guess it's the same as for Down Under tiny cancel majority.
One day races? The Australian ones and Taxc? I'm for cancel there. (Taxc 100%, the Australian ones being surely directly Covid related, less, but still, 75% let's say) (Or if they organize it as national something like the Down Under replacement, ride that possibly, as cat 1)

I think we should try to fix a general rule for the entire season and not voting if we want to ride Tour Down Under or Taxc or what ever race is cancelled. We need a decision what we want to do if a race is not in the calendar like Tour Down Under and we need to know what we do if a race is canceled short terms or maybe even postponed.

For me there is absolutley no reason to take races in the calendar that are cancelled already, then we can also take Califiornia in the calendar who is canceled due to finance reasons.

For races that are canceled during the season it is harder to find a good solution. I think if they are canceled early maybe like 2 or 3 months before the race starts or something like that), we should cancel them too and try to find a replacement in the UCI calendar that takes place at the same time. That rule wont work for monuments and Grand Tours of course, amybe we decide to just race them as planed? For the GRand Tours the profiles will be available even if they are canceled.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Down Under: I now newly propose their 4 day replacement event. (now 1 vote) Tiny majority for the moment for cancel (which as it stands would mean my recommendation to Luques would be keep)

As a compromise, can accept the real-life 4 day replacement event. Surely better than some random fantasy tour, although some TDU would still be best option in my point of view. As a world tour race it is nearly as important as Catalonia or Suisse these days, which leads to your question, very good question indeed:

Other stage races for the moment no issue: But if others become one? Here I guess it's the same as for Down Under tiny cancel majority.

Don't really think there is a majority for that. Imagine Paris Nice gets cancelled... or the Giro... I don't think we will cancel it and ride fantasy something instead? Probably better to celebrate cycling virtually and ride the race here (like we did for most of the races in 2020).

One day races? The Australian ones and Taxc? I'm for cancel there. (Taxc 100%, the Australian ones being surely directly Covid related, less, but still, 75% let's say) (Or if they organize it as national something like the Down Under replacement, ride that possibly, as cat 1)

One day races I am more open for cancellation, if we have some other reasonable one day race as replacement. If not, probably fantasy Evans still more interesting than fantasy something else. Another reason can be that some cancelled real life one day races have moved to virtual Zwift races this year, for example the virtual tour of Flanders in April this year. So if it can move to Zwift, it can also move to RSF

[Robyklebt]

I think we should try to fix a general rule for the entire season and not voting if we want to ride Tour Down Under or Taxc or what ever race is cancelled. We need a decision what we want to do if a race is not in the calendar like Tour Down Under and we need to know what we do if a race is canceled short terms or maybe even postponed.

That's what we're trying to do actually. The "vote counting" is mostly so that I keep the overview on who has what opinion..

And agree it should be for the whole season. But right now when it comes to stage races it's only Down Under. Cancelled ahead of the season. But the decision we take for Down Under, of course should then count for other races that are possibly cancelled even before the season starts.

Deletions in season is a different topic, there we have the precedent of last season and IMO simply should deal with it the same way.
Postponements as well, same as last year.

The general rule we're discussing here is the one for cancellations before the season. Of course the others can be re-discussed too.

As a world tour race it is nearly as important as Catalonia or Suisse these days, which leads to your question, very good question indeed:

Not really the point I know, but I think you're overestimating Down Under's importance, by quite a lot. It really is just training under race conditions for 90% of the peloton.... why do you think it's either an Australian or a guy riding for an Australian team winning basically every year? But the importance of the race IMO in the end is not even that important, and if, maybe for me the other way around than for you.

Don't really think there is a majority for that. Imagine Paris Nice gets cancelled... or the Giro... I don't think we will cancel it and ride fantasy something instead? Probably better to celebrate cycling virtually and ride the race here (like we did for most of the races in 2020).

In season cancellations vs pre season again. What we did in 2020 was all in season, something cancelled before is different. And while I think it's unlikely that the Giro or even PN gets cancelled before the season starts... if it did, I think we would have to have to conversation we're having about Down Under now. If the Giro gets cancelled tomorrow, what do we do?`Now profiles yet. So the 2020 version? I would strongly dislike that, for Down Under would mind much less, of course partly because it's basically the same every year anyway, but also because the Giro is more important and deserves a REAL Giro, not just rehashing last year (see above on the inverted importance thing for me) So cancel or 2020 version? Between these 2 choices I'd be for cancel. There would be other options too of course, a historic edition. A fantasy edition. A fantasy tour not even necessarily in Italy. All 3 preferable to me to the 2020 version again. (As lower cat and not under the Giro name) Riding a Giro with the same profiles as 2020, when the Giro is cancelled before the season even starts, wouldn't be celebrating it, would be devaluing it! If it's the "Italian Tour" as cat 2 or 3, hell, who cares, ok for me. But I don't want to see "Tim Eiffel, Giro winner" when he won some fantasy race, be it 2020 profiles or some great Gipfel-fantasy. (Oxymoron? hihihi, just joking)
With profiles already published, it changes a bit already, we can ride it... and then again in 2022... a bit blah (that's why I was for a TdS fantasy edition for 2020, but was in the minority, or not big enough majority anyway, don't remember) but ok, that's probably what would happen. (but again, if it's a pre-season cancellation we should still have the discussion about what to do).

And as I said to Rasmussen, in-season cancellation, even in February, but of course much more in March, April the situation is already different, then I would be for riding the Giro under the Giro name too. And would be the same situation we had in 2020 for many races, so very likely we would end up treating it the same, means riding it. But we're not in season, if the Giro gets cancelled tomorrow, as Down Under did in early November.... it's not automatic at it almost certainly will be for in season cancellations (and postponements), where we just do what we did last year most likely (of course everything can be discussed, but would expect the discussion to have the same result as last year)

[Gipfelstuermer]

In season cancellations vs pre season again.

OK, I can follow that argument and somewhat agree.

If we stick to that, I am OK. Because not many important races will be cancelled pre season, I guess. Races like Paris-Nice or Giro will be organized as long as there is hope that it can take place.

So if we don't do in-season cancellations, I am fine with pre-season cancellations.

[Pokemon Club]

Colombia 2021 cancel it seems

[Robyklebt]

Cancelled races until today from PCS.

Not sure when we have the cut-off from pre-season cancellation to in season cancellation, but end of December this is the situation.

2 2021-01-18 ME La Tropicale Amissa Bongo 2.1 cancelled
3 2021-01-19 ME Santos Tour Down Under 2.UWT cancelled
5 2021-01-28 ME Race Torquay 1.1 cancelled
6 2021-01-30 ME PETRONAS Le Tour de Langkawi 2.Pro cancelled
8 2021-01-31 ME Cadel Evans Great Ocean Road Race 1.UWT cancelled
10 2021-02-03 ME Jayco Herald Sun Tour 2.1 cancelled
11 2021-02-09 ME Tour Colombia 2.1 cancelled
12 2021-02-11 ME Tour of Antalya 2.1 cancelled
13 2021-03-13 ME Ronde van Drenthe 1.1 cancelled
15 2021-04-29 ME Tour de Yorkshire 2.Pro cancelled
17 2021-06-05 ME Tacx Pro Classic / Ronde van Zeeland 1.1 cancelled

[Gipfelstuermer]

Cancelled races until today from PCS.

Not sure when we have the cut-off from pre-season cancellation to in season cancellation, but end of December this is the situation.

You can add the Mallorca challenge series to the cancelled races list...

San Juan also cancelled for pro teams (only local teams may be starting but no profiles out yet).

So these are now in-season cancellations? Just for the records.

[Robyklebt]

Sometimes you have strange question...

Why does it matter if it's pre season or not? Once the PDF is finalized, it's finalized, races are in, no matter what. And both San Juan and Mallorca are in the finalized (but not updated, grr) PDF, so... doesn't matter if a meteorite strikes San Juan and all that's left is a huge crater, once it's in the finalized PDF, it's fix.

But to answer, theoretically I'd categorize them as borderline pre-season cancellations somehow. If it was races in March that were cancelled now, I'd count them as pre season cancellations still. For another few days...

Stages hopefully online some time soon, then all we need is to design.

[Robyklebt]

Btw, I'm slowly starting to worry about the Giro, route still not announced, ok, why not, but not even a date for an announcement....

[Gipfelstuermer]

Btw, I'm slowly starting to worry about the Giro, route still not announced, ok, why not, but not even a date for an announcement....

If they were considering postponement/cancellation, would probably be in the press very quickly. Also, if they are able to organize MSR in March, why not Giro as well?

But, in any case, good to have a plan B. For example, if no route presentation is scheduled until 1 April, we start a fantasy design competition. Routes can be submitted until 18 April. Voting until 25 April.