Are races too long?

[flockmastoR]

I don't comment on all that has been written but I want to add some points

1) As I also quit racing in 2015 (with a short comeback in 2018) I can tell you my reasons I had to quit
-) Finishing my master and starting to work 9-5 made it unpossible for me to start at my regular times (afternoon or morning)
-) During the comeback I tried to ride in the evening but that kind of annoyed me very soon, I was stressed to much and racing in the evening stressed me even more, so I quit again very soon

Race lengths had nothing to do with me quiting, You have the time to start or you don't

2) To the race lengths discussion:
I would like to have shorter races sometimes, long races are interessting but only if they are rare. I don't want to spend 2:00 for a pure fantasy race or within a fantasy stage race each and every day. (Some exceptions are extreme tours like Andes or a few RSF classics)

[Laurens88]

Agreed, race length might not be the main reason why people quit. However, for me the race length can be a reason not to join a race. If it's 2 hours, with just a few teams and it's pretty much clear what will happen and little possibilities to alter the outcome, why join?

It might be that other people think the same and this will result in a race of 2 hours with just 2 or 3 teams. Nobody likes that. These managers will be bored and annoyed and start to have negative feelings towards the game such as "I'm wasting my time here". This kind of thought also occurs in more crowded races with a flat ending and a long mintact. Such thoughts, combined with other factors such as a more busy life, do lead to people quitting the game in the end.

The same is true for new players. They join the game, might be unlucky to join a few long races where they have no chance and then they will leave. It happened to my uncle for example. He joined, initially really liked the idea behind the game and the realism, but didn't like it that the outcome would often be clear from the beginning. Then you just sit there waiting for the inevitable loss for 2 hours, he said.

My suggestion is to at least make sure pure fantasy races are never longer than 1.5 hours if there are many tours at the same time. With fantasy races this should be possible. For real races, a late mintact is a very useful tool to shorten the length of races. And one +6 at 30 km away from the finish is not enough to justify a 30 minute mintact if you ask me.

[claw]

So.. im not sure if i am in a position where i should talk about anything, but nevertheless on the other hand a "fresh" opinion is always more useful than the known ones..
I red a lot in this thread and got the opinions, and i especially want to say that the following is nothing to offend anybody. Im extremely impressed that you guys managed to keep this game alive. This is incredible and if i understood correctly alk is managing everything and there is no buh or leso anymore? But nevermind, thats another topic..
What I actually want to say: Especially talking about oman (21h) there seems to be no real reason for the early mintact. To be really honest it feels like some kind of torture. Since the chat almost dies as soon as the mintact starts, i definitely know i am not the only one who loses "awareness" for the game at this point.
I personally - because Roby said something like "more time means better decisions" - start to overthink when i have too much time and usually never have the need for more than 30 seconds. If you ask me, we could do most of the stage with some kind of 10/15 tact.
Would still be fine.
The overthinking might be a personal problem myself, but the time needed to play this game is the biggest part of everything.
I knew it from the past and it already began again: You pretty much have to plan your life according to the game (you all know what i mean about this) even if i red something like 7.30 min per race / 26hours per year - are you seriously disrespecting that? Its lifetime.. And dont tell me you always exactly have to take a long term shit 30 km before the finish of a race...

"I want it that way and it has always been like this" cant be the only real point against a discussion about all that..
And its not like i want no mintact anymore or anything.. but it cant be "30km mintact" just for principle.. use your fingertips for when it might be really useful..

Sorry and thanks for keeping all this alive dudes!

[schappy]

First of all. Everybody can say his opinion. Dont know what you mean with your first sentence.

For the topic, i know what you mean. Everybody have his own wishes for the mintact. For the most races for me it is okay, when the it is really late. for me tooks the sprint really much time in the end. 500m the minute i can understand, but the for me is enough to have 30 sec time.
But for the races, the designer chose the mintact. It is on him, his or it to decide.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Interesting to re-open this thread. There are many different opinions. But there are also a few things everyone can do to improve mintacts. From easy to difficult:

• On days where you have the choice, ride the race with the mintact you like. For example, if there are lots of participants in shorter races, eventually the calendar will move a little bit in that direction.

• Check and comment on designed races in the forum. Some designers might listen to your comments.

• Design your own fantasy races. You choose the race length and you choose the mintact.

• Help design real races. As a designer you choose the mintact.

• If you design a race, post the profile AND the min-tact in the forum. This helps others to check your race.

for me tooks the sprint really much time in the end. 500m the minute i can understand, but the for me is enough to have 30 sec time.
But for the races, the designer chose the mintact. It is on him, his or it to decide.

This is an interesting question from schappy: Would 30s be enough in the sprint? With the new follow-on-click, I think it's possible to go down to 30s... test it over the next few days and tell us how you like it in the thread... 30s per 50m would save us 5min in every race! And even if it's a little bit more hectic then, in reality a sprint is fast pace and hectic, too But

[Alkworld]

I was thinking about a feature, that every (online) team can agree to shorten the mintact of the current race. As soon as every team agrees, the race would continue in 30s tact until a latest time (e.g. last 5km).

[Schartner Bombe]

I was thinking about a feature, that every (online) team can agree to shorten the mintact of the current race. As soon as every team agrees, the race would continue in 30s tact until a latest time (e.g. last 5km).

in my opinion too many features destroy the basic idea of the game - which one is minimalism - if we start voting now because of mintakt - then what else are we voting for?
if it's too long you can mintact the last 15km in each race.

I think it's the same with the statistics - way too much - seems like everyone needs their own statistics

[claw]

i am not sure if this has ever been mentioned, but another idea could be having different tacts for different types of km..
means for example flat km between -1 and 1 can be done in like 15s/km far from the finish, uphill-stuff has the common 30s, or even mintact (possibly depending on where on the stage the uphill is or something) and so on..

First of all. Everybody can say his opinion. Dont know what you mean with your first sentence.

For the topic, i know what you mean. Everybody have his own wishes for the mintact. For the most races for me it is okay, when the it is really late. for me tooks the sprint really much time in the end. 500m the minute i can understand, but the for me is enough to have 30 sec time.
But for the races, the designer chose the mintact. It is on him, his or it to decide.

that sentence somehow meant to say that it might not be appropriate to ride a few races and question everything..

[cataracs]

30sec for every 50m would be totally fine. I tink it used to be that way at some point, not sure.

But then yes, the intelligent mintact like claw mentioned would be the best solution to long races.

[lennylenny]

15 seconds is way too short, on one day races that would mean a refresh is needed more than once every 4 minutes to prevent the out of tempo offline rule

[Alkworld]

I was thinking about a feature, that every (online) team can agree to shorten the mintact of the current race. As soon as every team agrees, the race would continue in 30s tact until a latest time (e.g. last 5km).

in my opinion too many features destroy the basic idea of the game - which one is minimalism - if we start voting now because of mintakt - then what else are we voting for?
if it's too long you can mintact the last 15km in each race.

I think it's the same with the statistics - way too much - seems like everyone needs their own statistics

The idea was not about voting, just a switch everyone can set (agree / disagree with extended 30s tact). If all teams in the race agree (or maybe just all online teams or something similar), the race will automatically continue in 30s tact, until someone disagrees.

[team fl]

Mintact is up to the designer. I very much support the point that you can add to the discussion in the Calendar and Race organisation part of the forum if you are not happy with how it is.

Sprint depends a lot on the situation: A huge bunch sprint, or if you hang on more than one train: 30 secs too little in my opinion. You always have to count at least 5 seconds for refreshing, 5 seconds to get the new situation, then add decision making for a complex situation or more than one rider, possible technical difficulties with your device, etc. That's why I would not go down to 30 secs. BUT, maybe go up to 100m steps instead of 50m?

[bergwerk cycling]

i would be fan from shorter races too

- 30 sec for sprint are enough (klick oder klick not)
- longer 30 sec tacts in the most races are really possible
- the alk idea good too ... but not everyone is online every time^^
- and perhaps for many races (cat.1-2 for example or flat races or...) 15 sec. from km 10- 10 before the end are could be enough.

Maybe a testday for easy (faster/shorter) races could bring more understanding for it

[team fl]

- 30 sec for sprint are enough (klick oder klick not)

As explained in my post above yours: That depends on the situation, if it is a bunch sprint with many trains, a sprint of a small group, if you have more than one sprinter with chances, etc. So I say, that 30 secs are not enough for every sprint.

- longer 30 sec tacts in the most races are really possible

Possible? Yes. Reasonable? Again, it depends on the race and the situation. And it's also subjective, as everybody here has other preferances regarding that in different positions. Are you the GC favourite in a hard mountain stage and controlling? Are you in an escape group? Are you just chilling in the peloton? etc. So in my eyes, again, it's the designer who should decide it. Some min tact starts are more obvious than others of course, depending on the profile. And as pointed out as well by others: Check the races in in the calender and race discussion thread, for the important races a, but maybe even in the fantasy designing part thingy and give your opinion about it. Maybe it is considered when you want a shorter min tact and you give a good reason for it.

- and perhaps for many races (cat.1-2 for example or flat races or...) 15 sec. from km 10- 10 before the end are could be enough.

A definite no. That's way too fast for some more chilled (= lazy) people but I am (positively) shocked that you as an old person are not feeling that .

But for real: km changing time is +/- something, so you lose some secs already, then you have to recognide a new situation, f.e. after an attack, a sieb, etc. And then, you still have to react, maybe having a slow connection or other things you should consider lowering your reaction time.

[Robyklebt]

I could answer 3 times, once each as calendar assistant, designer and user....

But let's keep it short and go only for calendar assistant.

As Schappy and FL said, it's basically designers choice.

For fantasy races with no exceptions (ok, there could be, even if I'm not sure in what situation, but there's exceptions everywhere)

For real races though changes can be made. Before the upload, for that though the designer has to write down where he put the mintact when he posts the profile in the calendar thread (designer RKL says that he is aware that he hasn't done that lately either, used to much more regularly, he claims it might have something to do with the fact that he has 20 downloaded gpx files in his february designing folder, I think it's a cheap excuse, he then goes on to blame me, calendar assistant Big Donkey for forcing him to design 3 further fantasy races because he couldn't find any race that fit otherwise). When that is done, and enough users find that mintact too early/too late, then it can be changed. Not for fantasy races, (but there of course writing down when the mintact is isn't wrong either, just not as important) there except in some really nebulous and undefined potential special cases nothing will be changed. Designers decision.

And as calendar assistant I don't check the mintact anyway, unless it's written down in the forum. I assume that my predecessors did neither, nor will my successors. Right now the upload tool doesn't show when the mintact starts, to see that you'd have to open the editor, load that race, an extra step that nobody in his right mind is doing, except when checking for something else, downhill pavé or so... (and then races named "balzers______huegel___bergepflasterasphaltneualt__juhuuu" are really annoying btw, just keep it at one _...)

[bergwerk cycling]

gives points for and against - everyone see it from an other angle.
And this discussion has been here since the beginning of time...
and for changing it into shorter races you (we) must have a majority and I really don't see that.

I only want to say i prefer shorter races! And ride the longer as well .-)

(only my remaining time is becoming less and lesser)

[Hansa]

I justwantto throw it here.

What about split mintacts on some races that could help if the designer chooses to use them.

F.e. hard mountain but then long downhill flatpart you can do the mountain in mintact and go back to 30s afterwards