Are races too long?

[olmania]

I think that most participants, if not all, of Andes sprint tour, complained in race chats about the lenght of the last 3 stages. Even more about today's stage : 244kms of flat/downhill for 2h20 of racing, last day of a tour (when many riders are tired).

[Rasmussen]

I liked it a lot. And in the morning edition nobody complained as I can remember. And we have more than enough short races...it's a welcome variety.

[Robyklebt]

I think that most participants, if not all, of Andes sprint tour, complained in race chats about the lenght of the last 3 stages. Even more about today's stage : 244kms of flat/downhill for 2h20 of racing, last day of a tour (when many riders are tired).

Maybe a good idea would be not to talk for the majority, but for yourself. I think most, if not all people would appreciate if you didn't attempt to hijack their opinion for your own agenda. (See what I'm doing here? )

[olmania]

mhh, I should have been adding in the 16h group. which is already 10 teams.

The thing is that most players never express themselves here, but many did it on race chat during this tour.

[NoPikouze]

I have no major issues with this stage race, ok the last day is a bit long...
But lately there have been a couple of long fantasy races as well (over 2h) which is maybe too much in my opinion.

And also, majority of one day races since c. october 20th (i guess) have been classic races, almost no sprints.

Please show some mercy for low ranked sprinter teams !

[Rockstar Inc]

My Cents: Todays stage is maybe a bit too long, but honestly the other stages were completely fine

C4F was never a game where the races only last 60 minutes or so

[Rockstar Inc]

C4F was never a game where the races only last 60 minutes or so

Thx Rockstar for your "Cents" ^^

From 1 to 13 Nov, if you play one-day races + the sprint tour of Andes = average including final sprint is 1h44,xx. There is a huge world between 60 min and 1h44. Which is an average, with 5 of these 13 days which was 2h or +. For almost all fantasy, it's far too much imho. Only Brescia (cat 3 classique) lenght was OK among those long races. Average should be 1h25, not 1h44
And I'm sure people would prefer ear from me 20 min less every day on race chat ^^

true story

i also understand the dark ehm other side, 90 minutes sounds also ok for me

[Robyklebt]

I split the Idéfix posts from the main topic. He hasn't shown to be interested in discussing the calendar, but only in trolling and provoking, no need for that here. And since the fairplay committee seems to have given him the green light for not only that but insults too, I take action myself. Anyway, no trolls in the calendar threads. If somebody thinks he has a point, somewhere, raise that point yourself, I'm still going to waste time on him, but only to move his posts.

Last day long? 244 a bit, as the designer (not the guy that put it in the calendar) I simply wanted to end in a sensible place. And start in a village too, the original start in ??? (where the stage before ended) had to be cut already, since it was over 260 then... So took a village that seemed decent enough, but not too far for riders to stay in the city in the hotel. Geography dictates too sometimes.

As the guy that puts races online to NoPik: No time to check today, but think we had some sprint races lately? One slight problem is that right now we're I'm trying to implement the Pokemon rotation... meaning 2 weeks in a region. North and central America plus Caribbean right now. And couldn't find that many sprint races there, ended up putting in the most boring of all in a few days... Anyway, don't remember exactly, will check later, no time right now, but thought that overall we had sprint races too in the last weeks. Will check later. Generally try to have a mix, mostly between sprint and classic.

[NoPikouze]

As the guy that puts races online to NoPik: No time to check today, but think we had some sprint races lately? One slight problem is that right now we're I'm trying to implement the Pokemon rotation... meaning 2 weeks in a region. North and central America plus Caribbean right now. And couldn't find that many sprint races there, ended up putting in the most boring of all in a few days... Anyway, don't remember exactly, will check later, no time right now, but thought that overall we had sprint races too in the last weeks. Will check later. Generally try to have a mix, mostly between sprint and classic.

Yes I understand that you try to have a balanced mix, at least that's what I assume, so basically I'm just pointing out that it seemed not balanced to me. No worries otherwise.
I'm checking...
So I'm talking about after the pavé tour, as I did that one. Let's start at 27/10
-27 hilly
-28 slightly hilly but real race + wicklow hilly
-29 hilly... but it looked flat I guess
-30 hilly
-31 flat
-1 almost flat
-2 hilly
-3 hily
-4 pavé
-5 flat
-6 hilly?
-7 flat
-8 hilly

So overall it would be 5 flat in 13 days, it"s maybe not that unbalanced. But with a pavé race and also some 5% flat races there were maybe 3 sprint races. Also I understand that it should not be more than 4-5 real sprint races + some tricky races so achieve a balance, not a full 50% of easy sprints obviously. So in the end the overall point is really about 2 days that should have been more flat (imo).

[NoPikouze]

And on the other topics, with my "fresh" view from a newcomer, I kind of think it would be more user friendly to have majority of races between 1h30 and 1h45. I know you guys like to be kind of realistic. But I'm talking as a user, a player, a person with a professional and a familial life (kind of ). It is just more easy to play.

Idem dito for race times. A never ending topic I guess. but I understand some people have other preferences than mine.
I can play from 22h to 24h with no issues. 21h might be a bit early sometimes, but mostly ok. 20h is dinner time, impossible. 23h-1h is too late.
So a fix 21h or 22h is great for me.
But when it changes everyday, it's not convenient at all. Most of my days have kind of a fix schedule. Work. Kid. Dinner... I'm not going to adapt because on monday there is a race at 20h (early dinner for family because of rsf?) and on tuesday at 23h (late morning at wednesday?).
Well, if it is just a fantasy race in a while that I have to skip, it is also not an issue.

But I'm just saying that overall, if you know the standard time of your races, it is more easy to play the game. When it changes every day, supposedly to please to most, it is less possible to have a regular schedule.

[Robyklebt]

Yes, remember end of October too actually, where we had the same race 3 or so days in a row, the manager Big Donkey wasn't too happy either about that actually I think I misread one of the races when putting them online, yep...That indeed was too long. (Other problem might have been that I couldn't find European flat races, so in the end took one from Africa for the 31st)

During the Andes + Sprint Andes not having too many sprints was kind of on purpose of course, assumed many sprinters would be in the Andes. So there in 5 days we had 1 clear sprint and one possible one (yesterday), which IMO is ok during a sprint tour.

In more interesting news... Thanks for the help for Mr. Anonymous. The guy that now for the third time has put races online, without being asked to as far as I know. It actually doesn't help. And in addition it's incredibly cowardly not to own up to it either, by now this Mr. Anonymous should have noticed that I'm not exactly thrilled to get his "help". Could at least come forward and say who it is and what the plan is exactly.
And if Mr. Anonymous is so intent on putting races online, write to Luques and ask him to replace me, Luques can fire me if he wants. For the moment I won't resign, he'll have to fire me, open a thread for it if you want my dear Anonymous. But "helping" (or interfering maybe, sabotaging?) by irregularly putting in a race here or there?

[RS Coesitz]

Short feedback: I liked the tour, also the last stage. Yes, 244 km are long especially if it´s the last day of a tour with 8 riders only. But it makes it interesting. Thanks for the tour!
Small critic: stage 4 could have had the change to the 1-min-tact aobut 15 km later. But that´s 7,5 minutes, so really only a small point.

[IDF]

244kms who cost us the gk

[NoPikouze]

Again, not trying to be a pain in the ass about this, just an overview. After the andes sprint tour:
14/11 hilly
15/11 hily
16/11 hilly pavé
17/11 flat with some siebs near the end
18/11 mountains
19/11 flat
20/11 hilly
21/11 hilly
22/11 flat? but hilly
23/11 n/a
24/11 hilly

Si i'd say 1 clearly for sprinters and 2 quite difficult.
On the other hand, easy sprint races are not really exciting, can't argue with that.

[Hansa]

I talked with Moja who is a pure Sprinter Team for 2 months now. And he said the mix between Flat and hilly is ok, sometimes ist more on the flat side soemtimes its more on tha hilly side but it varies.
i dont really have an opinion on this on my own because i dotn ride sprinter races.

2nd About the race lenght. moja said he is totally fine with races between 1.5 Hours and 2 Hours and he is also ok with sometimes even longer races. for example on andes 1 really Long stage is fine too. even for 1 day races sometimes longer stages are fine.

My own opinion is i like longer races but i dont like long mintacts if they are not necessary. On flat stages there is no need for 30kms of mintact. i also like to ride races with a length of around 2 Hours but im fine if we change it a bit for one day races and also use some much shorter races races with under 1.5h.

All in all i think for one day races a good mix is About 1/3rd for sprinter 1/3rd for classics and 1/3rd fight between Sprinters and classics. sometimes a race for climber in between that is fine too and also sometimes a time Trial or a pave race can fit in.

[Robyklebt]

The whole issue is a non issue.

The last stage of Andes Sprint seems to have triggered OL. 137 minutes. A long stage yes. I have no problem with his opinion, even if I disagree that a 137 min stage is a problem. I do have a problem with his attempt to speak for "most, if not all". It's very simple, speak for yoursel. Those that don't speak up, don't make their opinion known have to be ignored. If they don't like it, very easy, speak up.

The length? The 5 days of Andes sprint (including the 5 min break between half stages)had an average of 104'24" 1h44'24". Plus the 10' sprint, ok. 1'h54'
The average of the first 15 days in November for 1 day races 96'40". Add those 10' again.

So?

But lately there have been a couple of long fantasy races as well (over 2h) which is maybe too much in my opinion.

`

True:

Including the 10' sprint (or is it 9? I make it 10' anyway)

GP Brescia 132'
Taça Setubal 134'
Laguna de Perlas-San Tomas 122'
San Francisco Classic 144'

4 races over 2h in 15 days is quit a lot, agree. But 3 of them are c4f classics. There is a thread for that, everybody can propose new races, everybody can propose to cut old races. Only Taka, Falkenbier, Big Donkey and OL participated this year I think. Make your opinion known there, it's easy. With only 4 participants to nominations where enough to downgrade (for cat 3 races) or kick (for cat 2) a race from it's c4f fantasy classic status. With more people participating that number might grow of course, but Taça Setubal and San Francisco Classic could have been kicked this year, were cat 2 last year (San Francisco now up to 3..) Just go. Unless you are Idéfix, you won't be ignored. Ok, Liquigas might be.

I agree. In general, and also in particular this week, races are too long.

I try to ignore the polite and constructive musings of that special person, but why not, let's see:
97' and 34" average. A whole 54" (even a bit more) longer than the average for the first 15 days.

And since I assume part of the criticsm from some quarters is personal: Let's see how it was in 2016 when Pokemon made the offseason calendar
One day races in November, first 15 days:105'0666", So... A whopping 7' and rest more than this year. The Donkey saved you 7' that you now can use wisely to make up issues.

The one year that it was probably shortest ist 2017 when Luques forced me to design countless short races, but my guess is that otherwise in other years it has always been in that range.

The guy that puts stuff online doesn't go and check the mintact. And doesn't change it (hopefully). Mintact has always been the designers decision, that won't be fucked with in fantasy races. He looks at the races and puts them online, looking how well it fits with the overall picture, sprint/classics etc. If you're unhappy about mintacts, go complain in the designers thread. THAT is where the length of the races finally is decided. Not by the person that puts it online.

I btw try to follow the UCI rules as closely as possible, try to avoid designing 1 day races over 200 km (but fail sometimes, think I had 2 or 3 over it lately) and putting races over 200 km in as one day races. But if there's a designer that design a decent amount of races I'm not going to exclude all his races over 200.
UCI has (or had) the rule that except for classics, the length is limited to 200 km. Sometimes special thingies and a bit longer. Same here, the great majority of fantasy 1 day races we have is under 200 km. And it seems the long ones are the ones that are later selected as classics
This year we have the weird mexican completely flat race at 226 km coming in a few days. Unhappy? Go complain in Pokemon's thread about it. Unhappy I programmed it? Go design flat races in central/north America, since there was nothing that I found in a 10' search. And wanted a clear sprint race since after San Francisco, hill pavé, Chelly (possible sprint, but not easy) and Villalba I wanted an easy race (the mistake here was putting hill pavé on the 16th a simple sprint there would have been better, but not that it would have been easier to find for 2 days earlier. (the one on the 22nd is sprint too, but harder (and excellent design)). I agree that the 226 really shouldn't be in the calendar, but short of designing an easy sprint race myself (and don't want to fill the calendar with my own races either, already did a fast hill pavé one since I found lots in South America and Europe but none in Central/Northern America)

And on the other topics, with my "fresh" view from a newcomer, I kind of think it would be more user friendly to have majority of races between 1h30 and 1h45.

Including the sprint we're just in your preferred range. As an average. Now many races are over 1h45' of course, but we had quite a few under 1h30' too. Shortest one 58' this month. And IMO that's better than having all races in the 1h30'-1h45' range, have a bigger spread. Yes, majority you'd like... This month probably we don't have a majority, with the 4 long races we already had, others coming, it's made up with shorter ones, under 1h30' But my guess is that in general we do have a majority of fantasy races in that race. Or at least close to a majority. But again, while there were enough races for north/central America, and there still are others left, the reserve in the vault is not huge either. (But don't start designing like wild there now, next we move to Asia, North/Central America is basically over.

I'll answer the fixed times ideas of PikPik later in another thread, didn't find this one at first when I wanted to answer.. and once I found it wasn't in the mood anymore. In the meantime congrats for the kid. Didn't think you had that in you. Had some injections to help maybe? (It's monday here btw, insulting allowed)

[Pokemon Club]

Well 226 km but only 2h07 isn't that bad !

Btw as it is hard to find races in the DB, feel free to use that new tool to select race, things will be easier a bit

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =485473360

[cataracs]

During November, in the races we have on the calendar so far (this means the whole November besides the days from 26 to 30) there are 19 Races that are flat and strictly for sprinters. And 5 hilly ones but with a possible sprint (I won 2 of them with a sprinter).

So, I don't agree with NoPikouze. We don't need more flat races.

[Robyklebt]

Missing a one-day ITT.

Wrong. The 1 day ITT was on. Mr. X or Bug X. deleted it.

Anyway, it is like that everymonth since a year,

Back up your fantasy claims. Go for it. Here you're not banned by me yet.

and I have no voice to say that

Exactly, and you have only yourself to blame for that. Had you managed to behave as a normal reasonable more or less polite but most importantly factual critic, you still would have your voice in the monthly calender threads. Now you don't. You chose to put your personal vendetta (which stems from me not accepting being insulted by you)over the good of the game.

as the calendar manager put every critics against his work in a garbage can.

Didn't your mother educate you properly? Lying is no good. YOUR trolling will be put in the garbage can. Your critic and only yours. There's another candidate, but for the rest every critic is welcome. You can prove here that you are able to do more than endless trolling and lying, but the start isn't very promising. With good behavior you might get your ticket to the monthy calendar back...

So I look forward to critic for the whole year. And actual facts, not the fantasy stuff you usually peddle.

[Robyklebt]

You don't like to disappoint, do you?

What was that supposed to be, polite and constructive an on topic

Most of it is just what it is, complete shit. Pure unadulterated unflavored shit.

Very little on topic...

1) It's not an excuse, it's a correction or an explanation. And repost that wonderful post of yours then, I'll read it this time, not sure I did last time, probably did, but you hide your stuff between the shit so well it's hard to take it seriously.

2) How is that whining on topic in any way? Congrats on you being Mr. Popular btw!

3) This lie again, we had that in one of the many fairness threads already.... go reread it.

4) Of course it's a lie, your claim was not that I put your critic in the garbage can, but every critic. Which is wrong, yours is correct. And if somebody doesn't get why after reading the stuff that we usually discharge from the asshole to the toilet, not to a forum, then he needs some more reading comprehension. Look, you might be a nice guy in real life (I don't guess so personally, but don't know), but here you have led your campaign against me (again, because I refused to let you insult me, that's how it started) make you only a disruption. The calendar is important, there are people who have something of value to say, you have yet to show that you are part of those, all you do is disrupt any serious conversation, any discussion about any criticism, regardless of if it is valid or not. So as I said, the garbage can is your natural environment. Instead of helping the game you try to disrupt it. Look even your badly designed 1 day races that are under the sea level too often, your ego prevents you from correcting them and thus be useful to the game. Instead you disrupt, by adding x races that are basically unusable because of the bad design.

So what do we have in this brown salad here?

The ITT claim, now repost that post, then we'll see what point you have.

[olmania]

Last day long? 244 a bit, as the designer (not the guy that put it in the calendar) I simply wanted to end in a sensible place. And start in a village too, the original start in ??? (where the stage before ended) had to be cut already, since it was over 260 then... So took a village that seemed decent enough, but not too far for riders to stay in the city in the hotel. Geography dictates too sometimes.

It's a fantasy race. No one will even be mad cause you put the finish line in a too small village of even in the middle of nowhere ! We have real races that finish in the middle of nowhere sometimes. Would not be a problem if the fantasy race does too, sometimes for the lenght sake of the race.
I also do intend to choose good departure and arrival towns for the stages. But in that situation, if it's better to have a few less kms probably; and no one will criticize the arrival village cause of hotel issues or whatever you have in mind.
Or ... shorten the mintackt, with keeping the good village with the good accomodation nearby if that's so important to you.

The whole issue is a non issue.

The last stage of Andes Sprint seems to have triggered OL. 137 minutes. A long stage yes. I have no problem with his opinion, even if I disagree that a 137 min stage is a problem. I do have a problem with his attempt to speak for "most, if not all". It's very simple, speak for yoursel. Those that don't speak up, don't make their opinion known have to be ignored. If they don't like it, very easy, speak up.

The length? The 5 days of Andes sprint (including the 5 min break between half stages)had an average of 104'24" 1h44'24". Plus the 10' sprint, ok. 1'h54'
The average of the first 15 days in November for 1 day races 96'40". Add those 10' again.

So?

=> I'm quite happy with how that stage ended for me in my race. Also, I had enough time to race it that day. Personnaly not a big issue for that stage in particular.
If I'm annoyed in general by "longer than needed" races, yes, I do. I believe that many many races can be shortened, without loosing anything in term of spirit and game end. That's the power of mintackt. Mintackt system isn't perfect, but asking for a new feature, or a feature change is useless anyway.

I decided to "speak for others" cause I saw many people mentionning that stage lenght (and the 2 days prior to that stage too) in my group. Maybe I shouldn't say here that other people mentionned it. But, fact is that many people never come in the forum, and they won't. For many different reasons (they don't like it, they could feel it's useless, they have login issues, they feel not listened here, it's too old school for them, whatever we could imagine, etc.). Thinking that the views expressed by people using the forum is representative is quite (to not say, highly) wrong.
Who's active in the forum ? What's their representation like in term of % of total players, in terms of % of "new" players, in terms of "young/older" players ?
So, saying "people should come write it here, or their opinion doesn't matter/exist" is a dangerous bias if you plan to take into account the community's opinions; on longer mintackt on flat races f.e.

The guy that puts stuff online doesn't go and check the mintact. And doesn't change it (hopefully). Mintact has always been the designers decision, that won't be fucked with in fantasy races. He looks at the races and puts them online, looking how well it fits with the overall picture, sprint/classics etc. If you're unhappy about mintacts, go complain in the designers thread. THAT is where the length of the races finally is decided. Not by the person that puts it online.

The guy who puts races online often says "we have that kind of race" missing. And designers design it.
So, the guy who puts the races online could also say "we need 70-100min races" when it's fantasy races for the offseason. And designers will design it.
A designer want to do a useful work. He wants his race to be used and appear to the calendar. For that, it needs to fit to the requirements. Change and decide requirements as you are the one putting it online; and the designers will follow if they still plan to design with these requirements.

Go design flat races in central/north America, since there was nothing that I found in a 10' search. And wanted a clear sprint race since after San Francisco, hill pavé, Chelly (possible sprint, but not easy) and Villalba I wanted an easy race (the mistake here was putting hill pavé on the 16th a simple sprint there would have been better, but not that it would have been easier to find for 2 days earlier.

=> Just ask designers to design what's needed. And you can now use the sheet Pokemon provided with his analysis on what's available on the current DB.

I'll answer the fixed times ideas of PikPik later in another thread, didn't find this one at first when I wanted to answer.. and once I found it wasn't in the mood anymore. In the meantime congrats for the kid. Didn't think you had that in you. Had some injections to help maybe? (It's monday here btw, insulting allowed)

=> I hope Luques (or whoever have authority) will see that. No wonder why some call you dictator.

[Robyklebt]

Now to RFM.

He actually managed to bring up actual criticism after I asked him, not just the wishy washy general whining. But he didn't find the forum.. .too bad, Idéfix after all was useful too, he copied it here. Good, because I definitely prefer to have stuff like this in the forum. Then it doesn't get lost in a flurry of posts about something else, people who miss the right moment can read back here:
So RfM: Next time in the forum and English please, after all it might interest people who don't speak french too.

RideforMoney<15:44>: Ah et pour le calendrier, je vais le dire d'ailleurs vu que tu me demandes :
- Ca fait des années que les gens se plaignent sur tes choix de mintakt abusés, pour des courses qui durent 3 plombes alors qu'elles n'ont pas besoin d'être. On attend toujours les changements.

Here you speak about my races I suppose? So the ones I design? Not the ones I put online. But ok, it's 3 separate issues:

1) My fantasy races: It has been very clear since forever that the designer decides his mintact. LIke it, don't like it, it's the designers choice. That has always been respected. If somebody else was in charge of the calendar I would not want him/her to change my mintact. And while people have indeed complained about that a lot, there's always been people who have said they like it too. And no, I don't plan to change my policy further, I already changed from 50km to 30km minimum (sometimes I do 29!), but my fantasy races will stay at 30 km minimum. And as Coesitz said up in this thread: If we change that 30km mintact to 15 it's 7'30". I'd rather save those in the sprint actually...
Mintact simply increases the quality of decisions IMO. And it allows you to stay away from the computer for longer if you discharge your shit in the toilet, as is custom. Or if you read something in another tab. Or if you have your mother that decides to have an hourlong skype-session. It's more relaxed in the mintact. I like it (and I'm not the only one either) and I see no reason to change it in my fantasy races. And deny anybody the right to change it too.
Now if we had a policy on it, I would abide by that. 20 minutes mintakt fix for fantasy races? Ok... I'm against it, if I design a criterium, I want to put the mintact on the last km, if I design a normal race I want it at 30 km or more. My races, my decision unless there is a policy that everybody abides to. Same counts for everybody. 5km mintact in fantasy races. As stupid as I think that is, it won't be changed. But if we change the rule, go to a fix km thing, then it will have to be changed to 20 too.
This has actually nothing or little to do with my job as calendar assistant.

2) Fantasy races by others: Not my design, not my mintact, as stupid as they sometimes are, I don't change them. And don't check them.

Now I'm still the guy putting them online, yes, so I'm to blame for all long mintacts. In a way yes. And for all short too mintacts too of course. Which are not popular with everybody either.

3) Real races: Again, I put mine at 30 km + And in real races the mintact can be changed, hasn't happened often I think, mostly feedback in the calendar thread after somebody posted the profile. Do we have many RKL real races? Well, yes, this year was ok, but either 2 or 3 years ago for some reason everybody stopped designing in February. Designing for Giro/Tour/Vuelta, yes, Gaurain often does the Belgian things, love him for that, but the rest? It was almost nothing else. I was left with designing most of the rest, especially the annoying countless small tours. There were months I had over 30 designed races in my profile folder... (or 25?) And then you'll get the 30', at this point that's the way it is. I'm not going to design my ass off and then design badly (which IMO it would be to have shorter mintacts). But this can be changed, if enough people complain about it... btw, why are TT the mintact from km 1 on? What's the point, wouldn't we want to save our precious minutes there too?

So the only on that really has something to do with me "doing shit" as you put it (in the chat, maybe earlier) is no 3, not 1+2. The easy solution is more people designing real races. If I design.. .again, I think those 5km mintakt in extreme cases are bad. (And think those 60 km mintacts if a race is only 110 km long make little sense either, I'd go with where it makes sense or 30 if not) so unless somebody can come up with a really good argument (so far not, I can see that 10 minutes more make a difference if the race is long as it is was with the 244 km stage, but not when it's a 150-200 stage) why should I change my designing to something I deem worse?

Le choix des horaires de façon arbitraire (encore que ça, quoi que tu fasses, qqun gueulera) surtout pour les courses d'un jour. / Les courses toujours occupées par les mêmes designers alors que d'autres sont dans l'oubli total (boycottés? je sais pas, à toi de nous le dire)

Arbitrary choice of times? Sorry, I reject that, I do put thinking in it. And yes, for fantasy one day races I decide, when I put it online. I'm not going to write it down in the preview. Short version on how I decide: As little overlap with tours (starting times) as possible. Change it around a bit (NoPik doesn't liek that and is getting ignored for the moment, later later) Try to have all 5 main blocks covered. That now is often down to 4.
I reject it even more for tours, the times for the tours are always (might have forgotten it once or twice, and in October the late change somehow made a PDF without times for the 2 late tours appear) in the PDF. So everybody has the opportunity to complain. And actually everybody should look it over and give his input (except Idéfix). That actually helps.
Forgotten designers? Boycotted designers?
Forgotten happens, whisbone is such a case, I often forget to check what he has in his vault. One reason is that he never posts new ones in his thread anymore. Other than that? I see who posted new races in his thread. That's been mostly OL this year. Some others, Falkenbier, Tukh, Rapid? (or last year more) Donkey. CC lately not much, POkemon has posted some now, was basically inactive for a year or so before that. Some others sometimes. Those races get programmed. The ones in Asia-Africa etc mostly in Winter, of course just to make sure we have enough races in that region in the off season. But if more is designed there I don't need to save them until then...
So I first check the ones that are active, next the ones I know there are races left, basically Luques, Pokemon, SM, Gipfel, CC, Huns, if I don't forget it Whisbone. Not going to check, but I'm pretty sure we have races (some of the classics of course) from 5 or more designers in the calendar this month, as is pretty usual.

But yes, in general many fantasy races are from OL, probably the most by far, what exactly should I do, limit it? Ok, I try not to have 15 races by him in the calendar per month, and don't think he ever has... but if he designs a lot, why shouldn't he have more races than those that design less. And I'm not really sure which designers are forgotten and boycotted either. Whisbone Huns etc the ones that haven't posted for ages, yes, but I occasionalyl remember and check

Là par exemple l'enchainement des courses abusées niveau énérgie. Ca fait 3j (surtout pour ceux qui sortent de ton tour des Andes) qu'on se tape des courses très longues/coûteuses en énergie qui font que certains (dont moi) skippent les courses

Funny you should mention that.

(the mistake here was putting hill pavé on the 16th

Now, if you would actually read and not just assume, you would know that I myself have come to the conclusion that putting the energy sapping hill pavé there wasn't such a good idea. Bad decisions happens, something I have never denied. Your perception is different? That's why I demanded you to back up your complaints with actual examples and facts as you have done.
Yes, this here and the same with the flat pavé race earlier actually, and end of October with too many times the same race too were all far from perfect. Now if people think the correct way to address the issue is saying "you do shit" like you did in the chat.... well, it isn't. Mistakes happen, bad decision happen, Every month. But less since I took over from Pokemon I think. (And you're free to disagree)

T'as le droit de défendre ton point de vue, pas de soucis. Mais écoute ta communauté au lieu de rester dans ton monde. Justement t'es l'un des membres actifs du calendrier (et je pense qu'on en est reconnaissant) mais n'en profite pas pour IMPOSER tes choix/ton avis sur la situation tout en sous entendant que l'avis des autres est naze

Ah, but are you sure I don't listen? When did I actually impose my choices? Well, yes every fantasy race. But do we really want a vote for every fantasy race that is programmed? Do we need a committee that approves every choice? Do I need to post what I plan to put online on Sunday, then put it online on Monday (Monday and Friday were my usual uploading days, but lately that changed, right now it's a bit whenever) Sorry, no. We get minimal feedback for the PDF, I'm not going to post what I plan to put online with regards to fantasy one day races for 2 people who'll look at it and say "whatever".

Other than that, what do I actually impose? Times are in the PDF, and they change after feedback almost every month. IF it's close, let's say 1 person( me, I do post my opinion, but count myself as a normal user vote when taking the final decision on what to send to Luques (and I send him 2 proposals at times too) are for the PDF that is up, 2 against, but it's the 27th already, the PDF has been up for over 10 days, opinions come in the 25th and 26th... then I will recommend to Luques to stick with the PDF that is online now. 2 reasons, 1 is that if it has been up so long some people assume it's fix. Second reason, in doubt I assume that no comment means support. The same if 1 person is for it and 2 against and I'm one of the too against, I'll still tell Luques to stick with the old one, for the exact same reasons. Same situation but it's the 19th? I hope for more feedback, but on the 19th my recommendation would be for change, since it's still early.

Again, I don't see this perception of me IMPOSING stuff on others as based on facts. It's based on assumptions. Assumption that I don't see to have any base in reality.
Mintact is designer, designing has little to do with the job as assistant (in theory I see it as designing a bit and cleaning up, making sure all is designed, in 2018 I think it was, the cleaning up was designing almost everything for a while)
When do I impose times and number of editions?
When do I impose what kind of fantasy races? Yes, the attempt is to have sprints and hilly races, much less mountain races because most tours are for them, they don't need, that I impose if you want...
Fantasy Tours? Yes, there the almost final (final final is Luques, but that is mostly theoretical in the end, often he doesn't have time) decision is mine, what I try to do is a) as few specialized tours as possible. Andes, Pavétour. Then during the Andes a sprinter friendly tour (which IMO was too sprinter friendly this year actually, especially if you look at the 2 other tours we have this month). Occasionally a tour for classics. But not necessarily every year, and if hopefully not one that has 5 classic stages and nothing else. Try to avoid getting more fix tours in the calendar, tours that we have every year. If we do one day we'll have no more free space for new tours)
And then adapt to what is the main program: So for the Dec tour parallel tour: Let's assume it's 5 days: First at least one day for sprinters a must IMO, 2 better, that's the non-specialized part: Then: If it's Hawaii the parallel tour will not be that mountainous, ideally max 1 stage for them and GC rather not. If it's MIT the GC for climbers is ok. 1 mountain stage that makes the difference ok. Or if there is a longish TT a second one ok too. Yes, here you can say I impose that too, but has it been that horrible? (Plus in the end there are not that many stage races around that can be found without Sherlock Holmes AND Hercules Poirot in that messy database, so in the end it often is just what can be found and comes closest to what I expect.

Just a little explanation how the calendar actually works (facts vs assumptions again)

THe plan of how it works is the following in the real season .(Fantasy is later, this month for example waiting for the Dec tour vote to finish)

10th Donkey sends Luques a first PDF
15th Luques posts the PDF
People comment, criticize
20th Donkey sends a second PDF with improvements
21st LUques puts it online
25th PDF is finalized, if changes of course Donkey sends Luques another one on the 25th...

That's the theory, in practice most of the time this year only step 1 has been on time. When step 2 was on time, then step 3 was lacking.... and so on.

c'est là où je trouve que tu fais de la merde, j'assume

Did I manage to change your opinion?

et comme tu pourrais me dire " bah RFM, dessine si ça te plait pas" et que tu aurais parfaitement raison. Juste que c'est un choix de ma part de ne rien faire de ce point de vue car c'est pas ma came

Well, one thing to remember, I'm not POkemon who used to rage "those that do nothing always complained the loudest" and ignore every criticism, going out of his way to do the exact opposite (offseason 16? 17?) 2 people comment, both say 4 pavé races is a bit too much, why not stick with tradition and do 2? He kept 4 and made them all cat 2, because he likes pavé. Next month we had 1 instead of the traditional 2, when asked why it was because none was to be found in the right region) But I'm the one imposing my choices on the poor populace?

But ok, design if you don't like it. It is indeed an option. But not the only one, if you don't like it, there is one more option. Make your voice heard. And THAT is important. We need more people commenting on the calendar, and less people whining generally in the chats. Like in race chats spreading what in the end is fake news. And yes, one thing that I do impose, is do it in the forum. Ideally not only calendar, but since that's my job, for the calendar. PUt it here, not in some race chat or the general chat, stuff written there risks being ignored. Not even necessarily on purpose, but sometimes I do need my beauty sleep, it's not by chance that I'm that goodlooking, I take my sleep seriously. Maybe special times sometimes. Forum, then I can see it later too, I can answer later, I don't risk forgetting, others can see it too.

[Robyklebt]

Now OL too?

You guys are lucky I couldn't sleep and changed my plan from "sleep till 5 then watch Japan-Mexico" to "stay awake till 5 and watch Japan-Mexico". And see about sleep another time.

Note to Idéfix: As you might know I like OL as much as I like you. But, see, he manages to be on topic. Your polite and constructive and his contribution just are different. And I actually don't really need polite that much, if the rest is on topic... wouldn't have minded if he called me an asshole in his post, (would have reported it of course, since the option to call somebody an asshole in retribution has been taken from me, was perfectly happy with that method, but for some reason if I answer to insults it's fines nowadays, if I don't it's not, oh well, I just keep reporting)

Or ... shorten the mintackt, with keeping the good village with the good accomodation nearby if that's so important to you.

Well yes, it is important to me. Was thinking about changing the whole Tour because I wasn't happy with that last stage.
Mintact: Could do it. Might next time. Might not. Because one of the issues with the mintact whining, is that a lot of it is exactly that. Whining. It's the refusal to accept any other point of view. Mine in this case. It's whining on principle about the mintact. Even if it does make sense at 45km from the finish, when the first of 2 decisive climbs start. Or what I wrote to RfM, more relaxed, longer time to react=better decisions (and it can happen in flat or in this case downhill races too that a dangerous attack with good flat (down) riders go, 30" not everybody riding for sprint comes in, put in the wrong guy etc. Completely ignoring the fact that if we go from 30 km to 15 we save 7'30". But yes, I can certainly see the point of wanting at least these 7'30" or even 10' if a race is over 2 hours even if it was all mintact. So all the criticism (that by the way is more widespread in quantity of post than quantity of posters, meaning it's often the same guys over and over) and the way of the criticism would make sure if I was designing the same stage now I would keep it at 30 km. Because yes, I'm as pigheaded as you. (But not as childish)

So, saying "people should come write it here, or their opinion doesn't matter/exist" is a dangerous bias if you plan to take into account the community's opinions; on longer mintackt on flat races f.e.

Here we disagree.

I liked it a lot. And in the morning edition nobody complained as I can remember. And we have more than enough short races...it's a welcome variety.

So wait, you say most if not all (and didn't even specify that you were talking about your tour, the first answer contradicts you completely. So who do we elect spokeman of the people? No, this won't work. If somebody has an opinion, and it's important enough, then we can expect him/her to show up. And if they don't, no, we can't just take "general mood" as an indicator. Because as we saw here, the general mood reported by you and by Rasmussen was highly incompatible.
So here we disagree completely, we can't just have "people think this" as argument. We need people to actually say it. Now if you had reported that you and A and B and C and D and E (no idea how many people were in your race) all thought the mintact was too long, that's already different. That can be taken into account, even if I'd still prefer them showing up themselves. But just a general "I think that most participants, if not all, of Andes sprint tour, complained in race chats about the lenght of the last 3 stages." Who? Why? Km or mintact? No, will be ignored. Especially if the next post says the exact opposite. No problem, nobody complained. Which doesn't mean everybody liked it either btw. Just didn't complain.
To make it short: You want a voice, speak. To expect to be heard without speaking... no.

And btw, last part of the quote, mintact on flat races STILL has nothing to do with my job as calendar assistant. I hope somebody gets that memo some day.

The guy who puts races online often says "we have that kind of race" missing. And designers design it.

That's what I did with pavé races and it worked. You designed (but only you)
I mentioned the problem with 1 day races moving from "new" to "all" even if they haven't been raced, and for people who remember one of their races who had that fate to mention it. Didn't work.
I mentioned problems with the whole Tour database, it worked this year with you, but I mentioned that earlier.
I mentioned that we don't have much sprint races in this thread most likely, now we have too many You and Pokemon reacted. Not too many of course, but not all will be programmed this year. Reserves are good.

But, to bring a nice and very stupid argument. (I do like to have fun) Is it really necessary to say something to be heard? SEe above! Isn't it dangerous bias to rely on somebody saying something? Shouldn't we just magically "know" not only the mood of the community but also that of the calendar assistant?

Ok, serious again: So saying what's needed is what I've been doing.
So, that's what I've been doing. I didn't mention that we need 70-100 min races. Yes., Or the bigger issue, that we needed races in central AMerica, but since the Central America/Caribbean/North American tour is over anyway... didn't think it necessary, since I knew there were enough races, just not ideal ones. The region traveling idea btw is a POke idea, which I thought was nice and continue it, just in case somebody wants to accuse me of imposing that traveling on you poor souls.

=> Just ask designers to design what's needed. And you can now use the sheet Pokemon provided with his analysis on what's available on the current DB.

Actually hadn't planned on using it, I don't trust Poke, sorry. Who knows what viruses he hides in there. But couldn't resist and clicked on it anyway, will see, first impression is that while it's a nice gesture, nice to help, in the end might not be that useful, most of the stuff is findable in the db too, it's just rather annoying to deal with that DB. The location thing seems useful at first sight, we'll see.
Btw, there is a place where everybody can see what races are in the DB. I posted the link before, so ehm, ah, yes, back to my great argument from before, shouldn't you all just check there instead of relying on what I say because it's dangerous bias to have people actually speak for themselves? Ok, enough fun with that.

I'll answer the fixed times ideas of PikPik later in another thread, didn't find this one at first when I wanted to answer.. and once I found it wasn't in the mood anymore. In the meantime congrats for the kid. Didn't think you had that in you. Had some injections to help maybe? (It's monday here btw, insulting allowed)

=> I hope Luques (or whoever have authority) will see that. No wonder why some call you dictator.

What? Are you out of your mind? I'm a dictator because I announce that I'll answer NoPik later? You use other kind of injections than NoPik, clearly...

[olmania]

Well yes, it is important to me. Was thinking about changing the whole Tour because I wasn't happy with that last stage.

Very revealing to see you say that it matters a lot to you that virtual riders in a browser game can have a hotel at night close to their virtual finish line of their virtual race.
And using that as an argument to explain why the stage should rely on geography and must be that long is quite sad.

Completely ignoring the fact that if we go from 30 km to 15 we save 7'30"

7'30" a day (on average, sometimes could be 10' saved, sometimes less); for let's say for 200days of RKL a year (as you mentionned you designed a lot of official races this year + fantasy), it means an extra 26hours on RSF for the player. Knowing that in most races 30mintackt is useless, and can be done much later; that's quite a difference.
What I mean there is that RSF is a game taking time. Many people want to play and struggle to find the time with. Everyone don't have the fantasy to waste their nights to wait for Japan-Mexico. You'll tell me that if they are unhappy about that, spending lots of time IG, they can just leave, and don't ride. And, wait ... they did ! How players we lost over the past years ? Regulars or newcomers. Of course, race lenght isn't the only thing that made everyone fly away from the game; but it's a sure thing that it had an important role.
Ha yes, I speak for the others, as almost none came here saying why they leave the game (which is sad, but understandable). That's my opinion about it, and I regret that we can't ask old players why they left the game.
And, yeah in these circumpstances, in a short time, the only ones to remain will be the ones who can spend hours and hours in game. It's actually almost the case already, unfortunately. The game lost a big part of its diversity, and soon only you and a few might remain. How enjoyable will it be ?

So wait, you say most if not all (and didn't even specify that you were talking about your tour, the first answer contradicts you completely.

Seems you didn't read what I already mentionned there. But I'm a nice mood and can repeat with others words.
People don't come on the forum to speak up. Then, it's easy for you, already having some power here on the forum, to say that if they speak elsewhere it doesn't count. I think you should reconsider the players opinions in this game. Maybe 15 years ago people were more keen to come express themselves on such thing as a forum. People, times and behaviours changed; time to adapt to it maybe ?

We need people to actually say it. Now if you had reported that you and A and B and C and D and E (no idea how many people were in your race) all thought the mintact was too long, that's already different.

Here you go (didn't save the chats of previous stages unfortunately, where at least 2 other teams spoke up) :

Mosca: 244km is crazy

Team Seven Down: 244 km and 30 km min tact? Pfffff

RideforMoney: same shit since a lot
RideforMoney: singesque again
RideforMoney: but btw
RideforMoney: 244kms
RideforMoney: (i see the guys who will screen and cut the word "design" just to do some memes)
T-Mobile-A: blame him
T-Mobile-A:
RideforMoney: fucked by the singe design

just in case somebody wants to accuse me of imposing that traveling on you poor souls.

=> aren't you the one caring the most about travelling and hotels (maybe Poke too back in the time) ?

That's what I did with pavé races and it worked. You designed (but only you)
I mentioned the problem with 1 day races moving from "new" to "all" even if they haven't been raced, and for people who remember one of their races who had that fate to mention it. Didn't work.
I mentioned problems with the whole Tour database, it worked this year with you, but I mentioned that earlier.
I mentioned that we don't have much sprint races in this thread most likely, now we have too many You and Pokemon reacted.

=> Suggestion : Maybe it would be more clear to have a special thread called "design needs" or something like that, where you can write up clearly and keep the 1st post up to date on what is needed for the coming months in terms of fantasy races.
Quite an easy solution, and maybe the current needs would be more visible to more designers in such pinned post.

And btw, last part of the quote, mintact on flat races STILL has nothing to do with my job as calendar assistant. I hope somebody gets that memo some day.

You can decide to ask designer to orientate designs according to the need. Have more power on that than you pretend.
The rest, yeah, it's about your designer job, long mintackt you don't plant to change to keep the annoying flat stages for all.

Btw, there is a place where everybody can see what races are in the DB. I posted the link before

Poke's doc is way more understandable for all than the messy DB.
Could put both on the pinned post with design needs f.e

[Robyklebt]

Very revealing to see you say that it matters a lot to you that virtual riders in a browser game can have a hotel at night close to their virtual finish line of their virtual race.

Yes, it reveals that I design with love.

And using that as an argument to explain why the stage should rely on geography and must be that long is quite sad.

Sad is it, yes, sad.

7'30" a day (on average, sometimes could be 10' saved, sometimes less); for let's say for 200days of RKL a year (as you mentionned you designed a lot of official races this year + fantasy), it means an extra 26hours on RSF for the player. Knowing that in most races 30mintackt is useless, and can be done much later; that's quite a difference.

26 hours a year doesn't sound more impressive than 7'30" a day. But again, I didn't say I designed a lot of official races this year. Read. Think. Comprehend. Don't make stuff up. It sounds easy. It actually is easy.

The last sentence is interesting. Knowing that? I don't know that, I don't think that. Once again you try to generalize your opinion, you try present your opinion as fact, when it isn't, it is your opinion, which you are absolutely free to have, explain and promote. But not to misrepresent as a fact. I don't share the opinion that 30 min tact is useless. If I thought it was I wouldn't program it that way. Words have meanings, use them carefully.

What I mean there is that RSF is a game taking time. Many people want to play and struggle to find the time with. Everyone don't have the fantasy to waste their nights to wait for Japan-Mexico. You'll tell me that if they are unhappy about that, spending lots of time IG, they can just leave, and don't ride. And, wait ... they did ! How players we lost over the past years ? Regulars or newcomers. Of course, race lenght isn't the only thing that made everyone fly away from the game; but it's a sure thing that it had an important role.
Ha yes, I speak for the others, as almost none came here saying why they leave the game (which is sad, but understandable). That's my opinion about it, and I regret that we can't ask old players why they left the game.
And, yeah in these circumpstances, in a short time, the only ones to remain will be the ones who can spend hours and hours in game. It's actually almost the case already, unfortunately. The game lost a big part of its diversity, and soon only you and a few might remain. How enjoyable will it be ?

Not an uninteresting paragraph, but really not directly relevant here.
My view:
Race length of course plays a role for people leaving. But, at the same time the race length hasn't considerably changed over the last years. See upthread somewhere the spot-check 2016 November vs 2020 November, Where 2020 one day races are actually a bit shorter than 4 years ago. Just a single check, maybe even doing the whole month would give a different result. But in general I think it's safe to assume that the time required for a race hasn't changed much in the last 10 years (ok, the sprint addition).
So seems logic that the fact that we have much fewer players than 5 or 10 years ago can't be blamed on the length of the races. Since that didn't change. What changed is 2 things mostly:
1) At some point the monthly free races were abolished. Now you pay or you endure horrible short races. That had a big impact on the numbers, people that were playing their x races a month stopped. And it's harder to keep people now too, at some point it's either you pay or short races.
2) We don't get new players. For a while Buhmann+lesossies were paying for advertising in some places I think. Plus had link exchanges etc. So we always had a steady stream of new players. Buhmann busy, so that stopped too. Now Luques, but as I understood it he wants to finish a non-flash version first. And once that is all solved, he'll go on the offensive. So no, I don't expect to be playing alone anytime soon.

So no, race length isn't a decisive factor why we have less players now than before.
It is on the other hand definitely a factor for individual players leaving. Get older, get a job, get a wife, get a kid, your real life situation changes. See Aix for example, while at school he played lots, then busier, had no time left. So stopped. (still school I think, but another one?) The question though is, would he have continued if races were all just 1 hour for example? Or would that have been too much as well? If you see him around tell him to have a look here, if he feels like it he can answer.
Mosca another example, he is offline lots and lots and lots and lots. And doesn't really matter if it's a long race or a short one. He said in the race chat himself once, that he really doesn't have the time for the game anymore, but since he really likes it he tries to continue, or play when he finds a bit of time. For somebody like him of course 244 km is bad. But would he manage to be online more if all races were just 1 hour? I doubt it, he's been kicked out of tours if I remember correctly, for not being online enough. Or was it one day races? Anyway, my point is, how far down would we need to go to make the length of a stage no problem? And at what point does it become another game? Not the one that it is now. Because the length is both an obstacle and a feature IMO.

Seems you didn't read what I already mentionned there. But I'm a nice mood and can repeat with others words.
People don't come on the forum to speak up. Then, it's easy for you, already having some power here on the forum, to say that if they speak elsewhere it doesn't count. I think you should reconsider the players opinions in this game. Maybe 15 years ago people were more keen to come express themselves on such thing as a forum. People, times and behaviours changed; time to adapt to it maybe ?

And seems you didn't read or comprehend what I wrote. But since as usual I'm in an excellent mood too, I'll try again.
Time to adapt? By ignoring people's opinion? Because that is what you were doing in what has become the opening post of this thread. By proposing that most if not all of Sprint Andes managers complained in their chat about the length, you suppressed the opinion of all those that actually didn't complain. Now if that was willfully, lying or just due a faulty assumption doesn't matter, what matters is that your "reporting the mood" from the race chat turned out to be highly unreliable, since again, the next post reporting the mood said the opposite. So no, claims to speak for an unnamed mass simply cannot be accepted as "the opinion of the users". As I said, if you actually mention WHO then it's already different, but a simple generalization, an overstatement of the support your position has in the end is weak argumentation, dishonest argumentation and suppression of the opinion of users. If you think you'd like to have somebody in my position that collects opinions by that method, then yes, then I'm the wrong person in the job. Open a thread to ask Luques to fire me then.
So forum is no good because people don't show up, but that's the way it is can't be changed? So how should the users wishes be known then exactly? The method you tried here obviously failed spectacularly, do you have a better proposition?

=> aren't you the one caring the most about travelling and hotels (maybe Poke too back in the time) ?

Only for riders. And they stay in one continent. Managers I assume go back home to work and stuff, for them having to fly to Southeast Asia for example for a week every day can be quite tiring I suppose. But I don't care about them, I care about the riders. Seriously, thought it was a nice idea by Poke, so kept it going. So far nobody has really complained about it, if it was unpopular would be changed again...

=> Suggestion : Maybe it would be more clear to have a special thread called "design needs" or something like that, where you can write up clearly and keep the 1st post up to date on what is needed for the coming months in terms of fantasy races.
Quite an easy solution, and maybe the current needs would be more visible to more designers in such pinned post.

Now I get it. You really want to praise me for this thread.
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/RSFForum/v ... =14&t=7366

You think it's a great idea, but your pride doesn't allow you to praise me directly? No problem, I accept praise from almost everybody, the more the better, no need to be shy, thanks! Would have been much easier if you just told me directly, took me a while to get it.

So you like that thread, good. You think I should pin it, ok, can do that, give it another name, will think about that too. And use it more often I guess? Can do that too. So far simply had no feedback and zero reaction from it. Sorry, I missed the endless positive talk about it in race chats, and you failed to report waves of enthusiasm engulfing the community in one of your reliable "chat mood reports". Or more seriously, communication. I tried, nobody answered anything, I got zero feedback, so I kept the notices at a minimum. But good, you like the thread and would like more info being posted there. I'll be happy to comply.