New teams and reset finances

[Robyklebt]

Couldn't find a better title.
But at least I'm sure I'm in the right forum, for me the "new c4f..." part should only be used for stuff actually related to the flash-react transition, not the more general stuff that comes up regardless if we're flashy or reactive.

So: Sometimes a while ago 3 changes were made:

- 20 millions for new teams
- Reset until Div 3 (provisional)
- 20 millions for reset. (not 100% sure if that's actually the case, but think it is. Confirmation still welcome.

Now Tirreno 15h we have the new team Szeged: salary: 445'450 So he's 70'450 over what's covered by the race organizer. He pays that money every race. As a new team, with only 9 riders in the team. For 8 rider races leaving the leader, 117k at home, he manages to be at 337, so there no problem but for 9 rider races? Huge problem.

Checked other new teams in D7

Emag: 397, 9 riders
Nikos: 415, with 10 riders, leaving one home gets to under 375 (but quite a bit of selling and buying already)
Dublin: 426, 9 riders, 8 riders ok
Hungarian: 403, 9 riders, 8 ok
Badger: 460, 8 riders. Team value 19,8 millions, so he has no reserves.
Bright:432, 11 riders, so everything no problem
Colchones: 373, 9 riders (but started in 2017...)
Alquiber: 393 9 riders
dsl: 448, 12 riders
Gaditanum: 441 9 riders, leader 80k, so 8 man still 361. next one 66, so 7 rider races is ok
TheTeam: 0 riders, 0 races ridden, but it says first race 05.03.23. I guess that "first race" really means "first login"?
Provinois: 404, 9 riders, but seems to have reserves, 16,2 team value
Biycling: 10 riders, 4 20 year olds...
Filou: 432 7 riders, 19,4 team value. Means can't buy more.

So after fast reviewing 15 new teams, a decent number of which should be returnees first 2 things that are not directly related to the 20 millions:

1) Does the 50 day rule count in D7? It clearly shouldn't, but somehow I half remember that it counted somewhere, but can't remember if it was D6 or D7. I think it should in neither, should count from D1-5 only, if I remember correctly that's how it was originally planned? (Last time we talked about it I looked in the forum and found something that indirectly said something, just that I don't remember what and if I wrote it down somewhere)
2) Should D7 teams be able to buy 20 year olds? I think not. For returnees maybe ok, they know what they do (hopefully), but a newcomer, buys 20 year olds, then can't ride until the next month? He'll never ride.

Then the 20 million things creates 2 problems for new teams:

1) Salary. See above. It's not that bad, but some teams might have big problems in 9 rider races (and as I said, chances are we are talking about returnees)
Here the solutions are simple:
a) 20 millions? Need to buy 10 riders
b) Lots of pop-ups, warnings red alerts and loud sounds for new teams entering the market. Last time I created a team was in January 06, so I'm not really up to date on how it is right now, so what I'm proposing might already be there, but I write it anyway. Infos about: 8 riders /race standard for most races. 335k covered, everything above you pay. Important races: 9. 375k covered. Some races with 7 riders, 295k covered. And add a salary counter, visibly, gets red numbers if you are too high, counts all the salary of all riders, the 9 cheapest riders, the 8 cheapest riders, the 7 cheapest riders. Maybe add averages, if necessary in red

The c4f financial part in principle is simple, BUT, it can fuck you if you don't pay attention. Not only pure newcomers, see Schnuggeritos right now, or Big Donkey 5? Years ago? When his cheapes 9 rider team was 425k, when he needed over 2 months to be able to buy a new rider, and that then was a 62 flat rider. (that was the highest skill he had I think) Yes, a less stubborn better manager would have sold a rider, but Donkey are stubborn. It's easy to buy yourself into a hole if you don't pay attention, imagine how it is for a complete newcomer that has NO idea about the game. He doesn't even know if a 83-50-53-48-48 with 65 reg is something useful or not, all he sees are max 85, but hey, this guy has reg, must be good... No idea, no clue, no safety warning that you need to have cheap teams for 8+9 rider races, you risk digging yourself into a huge hole very fast.

2) Tax: With 15 millions you started at 0 or 5% tax? Forgot. But it was a good opportunity to deal and buy and sell and sell more, even some NFTs maybe , and not only not lose money, but with some training often even making money. Now with 20 millions the tax is already higher (Buh never wanted to tell us WHEN exactly the tax started, but I think around 18 millions? 17?)
Solution: I have none at this moment. No, changing the whole system so that the tax starts later IMO is not a good solution here. But since with 20 millions (but 10 riders please) the riders are already more competitive (the manager still unexperienced, which is the bigger problem at this point) it's probably an acceptable trade off.

Anyway, if we want to help the newcomers, it was all the rage a few months ago, maybe put in some safeties, see above, 10 riders required, good guidance when buying.

[Bear]

Very good. I also think it's important to do something so that new players will keep playing for longer. As a new team it always helps to start with a cheap team. Little success will result into good money.

The 10 rider idea is already very good imo. It could be also an idea to restrict the number of riders who have more than a specific salary. For example:

Max 1 rider with more than 75k salary
Max 3 rider with more than 60k salary
...

Or its only allowed to start with a specific number of riders in a salary range

1 rider 75k
2 riders 55-75k
2 riders 45-55k
5 riders 25-45k

I dont know if its possible to implement. And I dont know if this really helps. But at least it could help for the beginning. If a team then changes to a much more expensive team with some transfers...maybe some alerts there that the team gets more expensive. Maybe also some popups "do you already subscribed at forum?" or "do you have a mentor already?"

just some ideas of a tired bear

[Schnuggeritos]

Valid points. I think something should be changed. But first, since I am mentioned as an example, I want to say something about it. As you say, it didn't happen immediately and I saw it coming. What exactly happened?

1. youth riders have developed great. Not ideal, but more climbing always means a decent increase in costs.
2. high reg. nothing more needs to be said.
3. purchases below market value with high salaries

That was a lot of risk and one or two bad races were enough to make the finances turn red for the month.

However, I believe that this is a problem of the player that can be solved by experience or at least by asking. No red alerts, pop ups or anything like that
One suggestion is to include a section on this in the manual. Teams from the automatic team creation could be taken as an example.
I don't know what the situation is with the automatically created teams, but if there are currently only 9 riders, it might be good to increase the number to 10 or 11.

Youth riders should only be available for purchase from Div 6 onwards, in my opinion. But I thought that is the case until i read your post

[helpme]

Rake Racing here, I restarted last month so i might be able to contribute to the discussion.

I started in Div 6 not Div 7 so there might be differences I'm not sure. But 50 Day rule didn't count in Div 6 and caught me by surprise after I advanced into Div 5 only 3 weeks after starting to play. It's not hidden information so it is on me not knowing, but a more visual way telling me that i will lose a lot of flexibility by advancing at the end of the month would have been nice.

I personnaly think that compared to my memories of the 2011-2013 times the start is a lot better! Things i wouldn't touch is:

-the increased starting money
-being able to get Youth riders
-being able to build your Team by your own design

What i would change for new accounts is letting them start with an autocreated Team. It might sound dumb, but I would think having this option presented to you this way would make it more likely for new players to start like this.

Something that might be useful is a seperate Chat for newcomers. I am aware that you can get the help from the all Chat as well, but i think there is a resistence posting (maybe a lot of) questions there. I would put it in the manual tab, where people should naturally be looking first.

Another mistake I made had to do with the current rider restrictions: So I started my Team with 4x21 and 1x22 since i figured training is a good passive way to increase your financial flexibility ( not sure if actually true in regards to taxes, but probably to some degree). But at the end of the Month i wanted to add Youth Riders so due to restrictions i had to sell first. Unfortunatly after selling the window where i had the market open didn't autorefresh the restriction settings so I ended up selling more riders then I should have needed to. My mistake, but a bad experience nonetheless and I fear more restrictions like Bear suggests could just lead to more confusion and mishapps.

So long story short i wouldn't put in mor restrictions.

[flockmastoR]

Rake Racing here, I restarted last month so i might be able to contribute to the discussion.

I started in Div 6 not Div 7 so there might be differences I'm not sure. But 50 Day rule didn't count in Div 6 and caught me by surprise after I advanced into Div 5 only 3 weeks after starting to play. It's not hidden information so it is on me not knowing, but a more visual way telling me that i will lose a lot of flexibility by advancing at the end of the month would have been nice.

I personnaly think that compared to my memories of the 2011-2013 times the start is a lot better! Things i wouldn't touch is:

-the increased starting money
-being able to get Youth riders
-being able to build your Team by your own design

What i would change for new accounts is letting them start with an autocreated Team. It might sound dumb, but I would think having this option presented to you this way would make it more likely for new players to start like this.

Something that might be useful is a seperate Chat for newcomers. I am aware that you can get the help from the all Chat as well, but i think there is a resistence posting (maybe a lot of) questions there. I would put it in the manual tab, where people should naturally be looking first.

Another mistake I made had to do with the current rider restrictions: So I started my Team with 4x21 and 1x22 since i figured training is a good passive way to increase your financial flexibility ( not sure if actually true in regards to taxes, but probably to some degree). But at the end of the Month i wanted to add Youth Riders so due to restrictions i had to sell first. Unfortunatly after selling the window where i had the market open didn't autorefresh the restriction settings so I ended up selling more riders then I should have needed to. My mistake, but a bad experience nonetheless and I fear more restrictions like Bear suggests could just lead to more confusion and mishapps.

So long story short i wouldn't put in mor restrictions.

Always good to hear from newcomers/restarters how their experience was. Just a note: There should be the possibility to autocreate the teams (at least from what I know).

It is possible to add a chat tab "Q&A" where you just post questions as a newcomer, or bergwerk wants to ask stuff about the "new" sprint system and more experienced managers answer them or give the hint to the manual. I just fear it can be overseen but could be discussed. Probably a Q&A section in the manual could also be added.

[Robyklebt]

D6 and 7 different though. Youth riders in D6 is normal, not proposing canceling that. After 1500 points complete newcomers should be used to the game enough to be able to deal with it. And hooked, so not stopping And good to know the 50 day rule doesn't count, excellent, thanks.

D7 and complete newcomer, something we hope to get at some point again too:

-Don't think 20 year olds are a good idea. Buy 10 riders, 3 20 year olds and you have to redo the team....
-10 riders minimum with the 20 millions for salary in race reasons for me a no-brainer too. With salary calculation help.

[helpme]

Always good to hear from newcomers/restarters how their experience was. Just a note: There should be the possibility to autocreate the teams (at least from what I know).

Just clearify: There is - the point i wanted to make is that currently in the Menu you check your Team on Tab 2 and see that you have no riders, it seems to me more likely for inexperienced player to go to Market on Tab 5 and start buying a team then got to Manual on Tab 11 find out about Autocreate go Profile Tab 12 -> Auto-Team.
It's of course just my opinion, but giving a new player already a reasonable setup means all he has to do is jump into a race and get in contact with other players which means he has to do less, than how things currently are.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Always good to hear from newcomers/restarters how their experience was. Just a note: There should be the possibility to autocreate the teams (at least from what I know).

Just clearify: There is - the point i wanted to make is that currently in the Menu you check your Team on Tab 2 and see that you have no riders, it seems to me more likely for inexperienced player to go to Market on Tab 5 and start buying a team then got to Manual on Tab 11 find out about Autocreate go Profile Tab 12 -> Auto-Team.
It's of course just my opinion, but giving a new player already a reasonable setup means all he has to do is jump into a race and get in contact with other players which means he has to do less, than how things currently are.

With v1.18.8, if a new player goes to "Team", there will be a note to explain the auto-team function.

How to buy riders?
As a new team, or after a team-reset, you can either create an automatic team or custom team.

Automatic Team
This is recommended for newcomers. The automatic teams allow a quick start with a competitive team that can win races:

1. You select a team type: Sprint Team, Climbing Team, Classics Team or Allround Team.
2. You receive 9 riders plus additional 2,500,000 - 5,000,000 budget for new transfers.
3. You choose the nationality and the name of each rider.
How To: Go to Profile➝Auto-Team to find more information and generate your automatic team.


Custom Team
This is recommended only for experienced managers. To have your own custom team setup, you can buy individual riders on the transfer market.

1. It is recommended, that you buy at least 10 riders.
2. You can buy riders which were sold from other teams or you buy new riders without a nationality and without a name ("name geben" in German means "give him a name").[/list]
3. For those new riders, you choose the nationality and the name of each rider.
How To: Go to Market to search for riders and buy riders. Below you find more details on how the transfer market works.

[Quick]

What are the current rules for team resets?

Possible everywhere? Also with 20m?

Because I think this needs a bit of tweaking if that's the case. Riding le tour with a team like rfm and then resetting and rebuilding with 20m should not be possible.

First quick proposal would be the 20m reset for Div 6+7 only. 15m reset for Div 4+5 and no reset for 1-3.

[Gipfelstuermer]

What are the current rules for team resets?

Possible everywhere? Also with 20m?

Team Reset
Under specific circumstances, a team reset is possible for players that are unhappy with their team.

Before the Reset
You can reset your team, if it fulfills the following criteria:
- Currently in Division 3-8
- No recent reset (within last 15 days)
- No active riders (You can sell all riders and then reset.)
- Not signed up for any race (You can un-inscribe in the Inscription-Page.)
- No race today (If you had a race today, you can reset tomorrow.)

After the Reset
You will have
- 0 riders in your team
- 20,000,000 start budget
- the possibility to generate an automatic team (but can also buy riders on the market)
You keep your Profile Settings (Team Name, etc.) and your Palmarés.
But, you will have to wait at least 15 days until you can reset your team, again.

Div 3 limit could be moved because of the higher number of active teams now I agree on that.

[schappy]

What are the current rules for team resets?

Possible everywhere? Also with 20m?

Because I think this needs a bit of tweaking if that's the case. Riding le tour with a team like rfm and then resetting and rebuilding with 20m should not be possible.

First quick proposal would be the 20m reset for Div 6+7 only. 15m reset for Div 4+5 and no reset for 1-3.

Not that easy, some old inaktive Teams are still in Div 5, others in Div 6. So you cant make a difference here. Are you sure he make a Reset? i mean he use his earned money.

I do a reset with 20 millions. So i can be competitive after 2-3 month. If i startet with 15 millions, i would need 6 month or more to be almost equal with old teams. So it is something to motivated comebacker to stay here.

[Quick]

Not that easy, some old inaktive Teams are still in Div 5, others in Div 6. So you cant make a difference here. Are you sure he make a Reset? i mean he use his earned money.

I do a reset with 20 millions. So i can be competitive after 2-3 month. If i startet with 15 millions, i would need 6 month or more to be almost equal with old teams. So it is something to motivated comebacker to stay here.

No, he was just an example.

I think one reset with 20m is fine but maybe not all the time.

[Schnuggeritos]

Right now I think Div 3 is still the one where you should be able to reset as we currently have 2 (more or less) fully acitive Divisions. All remaining Divisions would currently fill a maximum of 2 more if we count all teams with at least one race this month or points within the last two months or those who are currently on a break.

The 20 million should not be touched, especially because it is being promoted. As written above, it would also increase the gap between rich and poor.

I'm open to discuss the frequency, whereby the first time (as long as the other criteria are met) should be free in my eyes because when building your team for the first time you might choose the wrong type of team as you are not aware of everthing in detail.

[lennylenny]

If the admins/devs want to put the effort into programming this if the community agrees,
i could think of some rules where Div 7 has unlimited 20M resets while upper divisions have a 20M reset available once every 365 days, otherwise it is a 15M reset
That way newcomers could still experiment with multiple styles of teams on the big budget, but more experienced teams are punished for repeated bad decisions on teambuilding being forced into smaller and cheaper teams
Of course this would also mean extra work for the FPC (if they decide to enforce it)because of the possibility for experienced teams to abandon their old team qnd create a new one instead

[flockmastoR]

If the admins/devs want to put the effort into programming this if the community agrees,
i could think of some rules where Div 7 has unlimited 20M resets while upper divisions have a 20M reset available once every 365 days, otherwise it is a 15M reset
That way newcomers could still experiment with multiple styles of teams on the big budget, but more experienced teams are punished for repeated bad decisions on teambuilding being forced into smaller and cheaper teams
Of course this would also mean extra work for the FPC (if they decide to enforce it)because of the possibility for experienced teams to abandon their old team qnd create a new one instead

I am sorry. I don't really get the point of this discussion at all. What is the issue. Is there any hint that experienced teams profit from the team reset?

[Quick]

Wouldn't hurt to tackle some issues before they practically become a problem.

If you don't see the issue of a team dominating a GT with an "all in" team just to reset after and start again with 20m, then nevermind, I guess.

[flockmastoR]

Ok, all in team resets for a GT is the issue. At least I know that now.

[Quick]

According to the log under statistics->transfers RFM sold his Tour winning team for 15m.

Again, I don't think it's a fair competition if you buy a team for a tour, dominate and then reset for the full 20m.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Again, I don't think it's a fair competition if you buy a team for a tour, dominate and then reset for the full 20m.

Trying to understand this. What exactly is unfair and why?

[team fl]

Again, I don't think it's a fair competition if you buy a team for a tour, dominate and then reset for the full 20m.

Trying to understand this. What exactly is unfair and why?

Ii think it's the thought that these "kamikaze"-teams could be harmful for the playing experience of others. Hence, bringing such a team should be well thought about and have the player to bare the consequences of it, fully. RfM's case is interesting because he will manage to be in div. 3 in August and may start with more money with a reset than with selling just his whole team. Which means he will not bare the whole consequences of his decision to bring such an expensive team to a race. Anyway, he just profits from the current rules. It's no bugusing either, so "hate the game, not the player". The question now is, should this be possible (in the future)? Could there be a different solution? F.e. just have different reset rules...

[Quick]

Again, I don't think it's a fair competition if you buy a team for a tour, dominate and then reset for the full 20m.

Trying to understand this. What exactly is unfair and why?

Don't think there's a need to explain this any further as it should be pretty obvious what i meant.

It's fair if the admins think it is and I opened this discussion to find out, if you think winning GTs in combination with resets is alright.

2/3 don't see the problem, so that's good for me. Thx.

[flockmastoR]

Again, I don't think it's a fair competition if you buy a team for a tour, dominate and then reset for the full 20m.

Trying to understand this. What exactly is unfair and why?

Don't think there's a need to explain this any further as it should be pretty obvious what i meant.

It's fair if the admins think it is and I opened this discussion to find out, if you think winning GTs in combination with resets is alright.

2/3 don't see the problem, so that's good for me. Thx.

Sry, I just don't see how your proposal solves it (if it is a problem). Limit the number of 20mio resets. Ok but then you restart with another team. If you really just don't care about a continous team development you just come here as a new team every year. I am no fan of the 20mio start at all but it was the way Alkworld wanted to re-attract managers for a faster restart. I also don't see a plausible way to go back to 15mio again.

And just for the sake of your example: R4M didn't win even though he had the luck to be able to find such a team of cheapened riders. Anybody would have been able to buy these riders. I was a bit surprised when I saw him getting such a team, but it was in no matter superior given a 21 stages TdF against well developed teams like Furpach or tiny expensive teams like VC.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Ok, maybe I am just too dumb that I have trouble understanding this obvious thing:

winning GTs in combination with resets is alright.

This is about RFM? Who did not reset and did not win? Ok maybe he will reset now... but having to reset after a Grand Tours seems less of a prove that 20M is too much than resetting before and winning... Or this is about someone else? Furpach, CC and stevens, dont think they reset. PandaCycling reset in January and won the Tour. OK , so maybe that is a hint that 20M is too much ? I mean it can be discussed. Half a year riding and then winning the Tour. Should it be more difficult? Maybe yes, maybe he wouldnt win with 15M? But maybe he's just a good manager, dont know. Is it 'unfair'? Don't really think so, maybe stupid teams like me with 30M capital need to become better managers if we can't beat a 20M team...

Lots of open questions there for me... If we come to the conclusion, 20M was too much, of course it can be changed. Let's just talk about it. No need to say it's all unfair, all obvious, admins dont get it, etc.... We all try our best for the game and I think we all participate in the discussions to improve the game. For me that includes making the game attractive for newcomers because I want the game to grow. Maybe we can go back to 15M if we do something else for newcomers? Smart ideas are welcome.

[Quick]

This is not about RFM. He was just an example as his team was only meant for the tour. It also isn't about winning or not.

Again, 2 admins. 2 don't see a problem. So I guess, I overthought that. Thx again.

But Gip: my thought was not about resetting and buying a team, then winning. But about buying a team, winning(winning actually doesn't matter, it's about the impact one has) and then resetting

[flockmastoR]

This is not about RFM. He was just an example as his team was only meant for the tour. It also isn't about winning or not.

Again, 2 admins. 2 don't see a problem. So I guess, I overthought that. Thx again.

But Gip: my thought was not about resetting and buying a team, then winning. But about buying a team, winning(winning actually doesn't matter, it's about the impact one has) and then resetting

Again: How does your proposal solve that?