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Dear Freaks ... Time to drop a little atomic bomb about the sprintsystem...

Taking some time in the last days and playing many of those sprints
that are at the moment unrealistic and also unfair against real sprinter teams I have
thought about some ideas to make the sprint more realistic ...

There are 5 general points for me ...

a) the positioning of the sprinters
b) the strength of trains
c) the positioning in a train
d) "Mc-Ewen Sprints" ... so beeing a active sprinter
e) Blocking of other sprinters...

So lets start with point a):

How is it in reality?

There will be a team or two or three that are
willing to work for a sprint and beeing able to keep the tempo high
in the last kilometres due to good flatriders ...
Those teams will be in front of the bunch keeping their sprinters in a good position...

How it is in C4F?

Some teams work for a sprint and in the end all riders will start roughly
at the same level just depending on the strength of the leadoutguy...

Whats the aim?

Teams with strong flatriders and doing much tempo for the sprint should have a little advantage
at least in positioning there sprinttrain.

So what I want to change?

I would like to have a internal value depending of the power of the strongest
3 flatguys and if they are in tempo giving a little bonus for the
starting position in a sprint.

Details?

The value will be calculated roughly 65% of the power of the strongest 3 flatriders in a team
and 35% of the question if they are in tempo.
Only the pure flatvalue is counting no power no sprint.
Could be easily calculated this way:


Flatriders will be weighted a bit different from each other and (tempo) is counting 2/3 of doing tempo cause otherwise it will lead to teams wanting 3 flatriders fit in the end ... like this every flatrider more counts a bit less.

(Average of the best 3 flatriders / 100 * 0,7) + (Flatrider 1 in tempo? Yes=1 (tempo)=0,66 No=0 * 0,13) + (Tempo2 * 0,10) + (Tempo3 * 0,07)

So we would have for example:

TT Sports is there: 89 88 88 all in tempo so his value would be:
0,883 * 0,7 + 0,13 + 0,10 + 0,07 = 0,918

Chense is attending: 85 85 84 only one of his 85 is possible to do tempo the others (tempo) get so we get a value of:
0,846 * 0,7 + 0,13 + (0,10*0,66) + (0,07*0,66) = 0,834

Parasite coming with 82 79 77 ... no tempo as a parasite should Value is:
0,793 * 0,7 = 0,555

Thats roughly the calculation of this value ... i choose it that way cause it will more hurt parasites then teams willing to help for a sprint and having at least a bit
of a flat team but just chanceless to get into tempo in the finish ... so well have a little difference between Team A and B but a big difference to team C

How should it influence position?

Well i think it should not make a parasite train completely chanceless but give him worse chances
to succeed ... so 60% of calculation of position at beginning of the sprint how it is done now and and 40% out of the value

Exact numbers have to be chosen but i think that a train like the one of TT should have an advantage of around 5-10meters and a chance to get the best position in the row
so he will have to use his leadoutguy a bit later maybe and he will have a better chance not to be blocked.

Well thats enough about point a) lets get further to point b):

The strength of the trains:

Reality: We will have a strong flatrider bringing the leadout in position for the last 400 meters who will also be a pretty strong
flatrider but with resistance and the possibillity to sprint a bit and finally the sprinter for the finish ...

In C4F we will have trains like 80sp-85sp-92sp ...

Why? One of the main reasons if for me that it seems km1 - 450meters before the finish will
be roughly calculated like the other 50m steps:

So the first change is make it the real 550m (internal calculation!)...

Second point: make a progression from flat to sprintvalue:

In the beginning a 85flat 60 Sprint guy or a 90 flat 50 sprint guy should be slightly stronger
then the 80flat 80sprint guys and MUCH stronger then a sprinter cause
hell not have the resistance to keep his high tempo for 550 meters ...
So let those 85sprint without flat guys as leadout be far behind ...

Then make a slight progression ... 350m before the finish the 80flat80sprint guy gets the strongest one
200m before the finish well have the 67flat 87sprint guy as the strongest but only slightly stronger
then a real sprinter ... and for the last 100 meters the real sprinter hits the bum ...

So let the calculation work like this:

1km - 450m 90% flat 10% sprint
400m 85% flat 15% sprint
350m 70% flat 30% sprint
300m 55% flat 45% sprint
250m 40% 60%
200m 25% 75%
150m 10% 90%
100m 100% sprint

So this will also not be totally realistic but it will give it a much more
realistic touch as we will not have the trains that are usual now, but
we will have trains like 85fl70sp + 65fl83sp + 95 sprinter or
90fl50sp + 80fl80sp + 60fl87sp + 95 sp.

I think it should give a bigger variety of trains and make parasite teams suffer at least a bit cause they will lack of strong flatriders and 80fl80sp guys ...

Also here I am open for discussion ... just wanna give you something to think about

Now to another point that I think really sucks: The positioning in the sprint

In fact its two points ... first is:

Why the hell will a sprinter not getting a backwheel be placed in the end of the train?
I think it should be more like this:

A (92) is in front ... B (94) C (93) D (90) E (87) want his backwheel ...
So B will get his backwheel ... C will be the next one ... hell be directly besides B but getting a little less slipstream and because of this hell
loose like 10% more power ... Nr. D will be right behind C and loosing also this 15% more power plus having a worse position and nr. E will be even more besides then the
others beeing nearly totally in the wind and loosing like 20% power plus having the worst position ... but still its better then the actual system where a guy not
getting his regular backwheel will be at the end of a long train totally chanceless even with a great sprint...

So this leads me to a second problem

If there is a guy on the side of a train or trying to sprint and some weak guy is coming from the front he will be blocked by a
guy with maybe only 50 sprint whos dead for the sprint ... this may be realistic in a few cases but not as often as it happens here ... so we need another solution i think ...
I would make an easy solution ... no tactics thing or so just out of the game mechanics ... if a guy will come from the front and a MUCH stronger guy will come from behind
the stronger guy will over take the weak one with a little more power loss depending on how much stronger he is ... (so 300m from the end a 80flat80sprint will nearly need no more
power to overtake a dead 50 sprinter ... if it is a 80flat 67sprint guy who wants to overtake a 63 sprinter who only rode 50m ... yeah he will loose pretty much power)
Second i would add a also on the power depending chance to block this guy ... In the first example like 0,1% ... in the second one maybe 4-5% ... but never over 10% so it should
only rarely happen not 5 times in every race ...

Well now lets get away of the game mechanics and more to the tactics:

What is the problem? In my opinion the sprints are only on reacting right ... but you cant really act right now ... so lets give 2 little possibilities:

First one:

Make a sprinting behaviour like the one of Mc-Ewen possible ... you know what i mean? McEwen was mostly not the strongest sprinter and had often not the best team
but he won many races by a very aggressive sprinting style pushing others out of their trains etc. ... So no i dont want the option "push down from the bike" ... i just want
the possibility to push other sprinters out of a train ... So how should it work?

If a sprinter is on follow while the sprint is already going on there are 2 possibilities ... you keep him following his actual backwheel ... either your own leadout or another sprinter whos backwheel he has (also if he is
only sprinter 2 3 or 4 in the backwheel) ... second is following another sprinting so changing backwheel ...

If there is nobody on the backwheel ... yeah no problem youll get it if youre strong enough ... if there is someone on the backwheel youll most likely not get it ...

Heres my suggestion:

Sprinter A is in front ... B C D already on his backwheel in this order ... E wants also the backwheel of sprinter A ... so there will be the following possibilities ...
E pushes B besides and gets the direct backwheel B will be in Cs position and so on ... hes only possible to push C or D out of the train same like before ...
What can also happen ... by a little chance hell not be able to change the train and stay in his train resulting in a bigger power loss ... What will happen very unlikely but
still possible: The other sprinters will strike against and hell loose so much power that he falls back to the end of the train ... anyway changing the train will cost a bit extra power ...
Guys in his backwheel will follow him only thing is they wont fall completely far back because they will see it wont work and stay in there train then loosing bit power (or should they fall back to make the risk more interesting?)

So lets say B is a 92 C a 91 D a 88 ... E who wants the backwheel is a 94 guy:

51% E gets the backwheel directly
23% E is only possible to push C out
14,5% E is only possible to push D out
10% E stays in his own train loosing 10% extrapower
1,5% E totally misses looses like 50% extrapower and falls back in the end of the train

Same situation but E is only a 90 guy ...

12% E gets the backwheel directly
17,5% E only pushes C out
44,5% E will push D out
21% E stays in his train loosing extrapower
5% E totally misses and is out of the game...

And let E only be a guy with 80 sprint (whyever he thinks he can get this backwheel)

1% he is really lucky and gets the wheel
4% he pushes C out
10% he pushes D out
60% stays in his train and looses more power
25% he is out of the game


So make this change to make the sprint more aggresive and give the actors a bigger chance to get a good wheel ... and this mostly for weaker ones wanting to risk ...

This brings me to my last point ... also leading into the direction of making the sprint more aggressive and acting ...:

Following situation ... A is in front beeing slightly weaker then sprinter B ... Both going from 100 ... so mostly the stronger sprinter will win ... whats right ... but some
sprinters are tactically great guys for example Ete was and were able to block the other sprinters ... so make following:

When a guy is sprinting (only sprinting not following) and he has no backwheel set ... just let him sprint like hell ...
If he has a backwheel set give him a little chance to block the guy chosen as backwheel ... but also risking his own sprint or at least loose more power mostly cause hell have to look at the guy behind and where
he is going ... Again a stronger sprinter will have more chances to block then a weaker guy ...

Just for example:

A is in front beeing a 95 guy ... B behind him is also 95 a goes b also sprints (you can only block while both are sprinting ... should be logical)

17,5% it works out perfectly ... B is blocked and cant overtake for the next 50m ... A looses no power
50% it works out okay ... B is blocked for the next 50m but also A will loose some power and get slower (like he looses 2-3 sprintpoints ... for the rest of the sprint)
30% it doesnt work out well ... B cannot be blocked and A will loose some power and loose like 4-5 sprintpoints for the rest of the sprint
2,5% it complete blows up ... A will be immediately overtaken and also loose like 15 sprintpoints for the rest of the sprint ...

Whatever happens the sprint itself will calculated normally ... so if third option comes out and B cannot be blocked its not sure hell overtake A but the chance will be higher then

Lets have the same for A beeing 90 and B beeing the old 95 guy ...

10% works out perfectly
35% works out okay
45% does not work out well
10% he blows it up ...

So weve got here another possibilities to bring risks into the play and make the sprint more interesting ...

All in all i am sorry for a post that long but a complicated thing like the sprint needs time and I wanted to bring it all in once to give you a complete solution and not only
little parts what we have often enough ...
Also my numbers are just roughly and I am willing to discuss them just to give you an idea of what im thinking ...

So I hope we can find a good discussion base on this and find a solution for the sprint in the end ... Greetings your Chense

Help me, I need a calculator!
Well done Chense, a mass of words and several nice ideas to make the sprint more interesing. In the point of the positioning of the sprinters I totally agree with you. Yesterday I had a possition with Hull (95 sprint) behind some 5x and 6x sprinters on p 15 or so in the train and spent around 300 power to come in a better position in the row. As one of the 3 best sprinters that can't be normal! Oh not to forget: Hull had 100 Form yesterday!

In the point that spring helpers and teams that are willing to work should get a benefit in the sprint I'd also vote for.
My question is: what is possible to integrate in the c4f-system? I am an absolute noob in informatic
To understand the other points I need to sleep before, even as you have explained them good.

So again: Nice work!

With first 3 points I agree, however in point 2, flat shouldnt be so much important, on 500m should 50% :50%, and flat should decrease every 50m for 10%:
1km - 450m 50% flat 50%srpint
400m 40% flat 60%srpint
350m 30% flat 70%srpint
300m 20% flat 80%srpint
250m 10% flat 90%srpint
200m-50m 0% flat 100%srpint

I dont like at all last 2 points. I dont want in this game any random factor, i dont want to have a "chance" of someting. Also these points sounds like black magic and would only make sprint more chaotic, we dont need that and it doesnt sound fun at all.

really like 2nd point
the rest is cool too IMO

Well Radomiak i think 50 50 is too much cause it will be for nearly the same trains as now but ill set up a new idea this evening

well and bout the last two ... I also dislike too much about luck but I also dislike this take the right train or have the best train and youll win if you dont fall asleep while sprint thing ... Think that a sprint should me more active and it is oftem very chaotic in reality ... But lets see what others will think about

If the problem is the 2nd or 3rd sprinter start the sprint earlier is enough

1km 100% flat 0% sprint
700m 90% flat 10% sprint
600m 80% flat 20% sprint
500m 70% flat 30% sprint
400m 60% flat 40% sprint
300m 50% flat 50% sprint
250m 40% flat 60% sprint
200m 30% flat 70% sprint
150m 20% flat 80 %sprint
100m 10% flat 90 % sprint
50m 0% flat 100% sprint

Like that all will be happy, somes with a strong train at the start of the sprint, somes others more powerful at the end, somes will sucks likes always, looks perfect !

Hi !

I am really not an expert about this new sprint system, because I was not here during the tests, implementations and I did not do many of them yet ! But still, I would like to share my opinion about some points of your development here.

a) Concerning your first point, the position of the sprinters early in the sprint, I noticed that you recommend to use the flat skill of the 3 best flat guys. That's interesting. But I think there's a weak point here. You talk about the 3 best flat riders of the team in the race, or in the group with the sprinters ? Because all sprint races are not 200kmx0% with a huge bunch at the end. You can have several siebs and different situations.I think you consider the 3best flat riders in the group of the sprinter, because you mention their ability to be in tempo or not. But look at my example, which is a common situation imo:

Team A : 95sprint (58flat) + 89-88-88-85-80-74flat
Team B : 95sprint (58flat) + 84-78-78-62-61-55flat

During the end of the race, some hills are here, and after siebs, only these riders are left for the teams:

Team A : 95sprint, 88-80flat
Team B: 95sprint, 84-78-78flat

So ... it means that we have to count the 3 best flat skills ... for team A, which worked a lot and naturally lost strong flat riders in the sieb, the flat skill of the sprinter enters in the calculation? I think so, because you said the 3best flat skills, in tempo or not. So :

Team A with 2 flat riders in tempo at the end (no protection on sprinter) = 0.753*0.7 + (0.13) + (0.10*0.66) = 0.723
Team B, with only the 84 and 1 78 in tempo f.e (1 help on sprinter then !) = 0.800*0.7 + (0.13) + (0.10*0.66) = 0.756

I think you can see the problem here ...
Also, it's going to encourage everybody to put 2 riders in tempo last km, to get this bonuses, even with (tempo), and then, the races with some possible attacks on last km (3-4-5% f.e, or a pavé), will be totally blocked, when today you sometimes can see successfull attacks !

This situation I described in the example happened a lot to me in the past, to have only 2 riders to conclude, block the end, around my sprinter able to pass hills. Other teams sometimes had 5riders in the group, but not able to attack, just to sprint, and it was old system, so no train, no need to count on 3 best flatskills, no prob

And my main question, would be ... what if you have less than 3riders in the group ? How do you count your thing ?

I think this idea might be interesting for the sprint races without sieb, then for other kind of profile, maybe you need some changes, adaptation ... I don't know

b) Then you talked about the strenght of the trains. I think that once again, I have to mention the races where the favos are loosing lots or riders and are not able to have a train at the end, unless some other teams with only outsider, but maybe 3-4riders around to launch a powerful train of 60+sprintskill !

I come back to your talk now, because I think it's more for the 100% flat races again. The idea to give more importance to the flat is good imo, especially for the leader of the train. % of your calculation have been discussed here, and I think it's good

That's all for now and all this discussion, don't forget to think about sprints after siebs, not only with a full peloton

Starting the sprint earlier was anything i considered ... but the prob is that we will have a sprint that takes like 20 minutes ... so i would like more to have a system that simulates this first 500m well ... we could also think about 90%10% for the first 500meters and then degressing from 70% or so ...

About the bringing sprinter in position thing yes thats well considered of you I just thought about this flatsprint thing have to think about it ... only 1 flatrider for the count will not be very good I think cause it wont favor strong trains instead ... ill give another solution in the next days I think but first lets discuss about the other points first is better I think instead of bringing 10 new ideas again now

Chense wrote:Starting the sprint earlier was anything i considered ... but the prob is that we will have a sprint that takes like 20 minutes ... so i would like more to have a system that simulates this first 500m well ... we could also think about 90%10% for the first 500meters and then degressing from 70% or so ...

About the bringing sprinter in position thing yes thats well considered of you I just thought about this flatsprint thing have to think about it ... only 1 flatrider for the count will not be very good I think cause it wont favor strong trains instead ... ill give another solution in the next days I think but first lets discuss about the other points first is better I think instead of bringing 10 new ideas again now

If you want to start from 1km, and leave it for 10', make a 100m gap between every minute, instead of a 50m; or 1000m - 800m - 600m - 400m - 300m - 250m - 200m - 150m - 100m -50m = still 10'

Ok, make your brain work a little bit more during the next days, and come with more proposition for bringing the sprinter in position

Chense wrote:ill give another solution in the next days I think but first lets discuss about the other points first is better I think instead of bringing 10 new ideas again now

1st lets Buh wake up lol. He always says he will give more important for flatskill, lets see what he really want.

Pokemon Club wrote:

Chense wrote:ill give another solution in the next days I think but first lets discuss about the other points first is better I think instead of bringing 10 new ideas again now

1st lets Buh wake up lol. He always says he will give more important for flatskill, lets see what he really want.

I have pmed him at least ... lets see if he reacts

olmania wrote:
I think you can see the problem here ...
Also, it's going to encourage everybody to put 2 riders in tempo last km, to get this bonuses, even with (tempo), and then, the races with some possible attacks on last km (3-4-5% f.e, or a pavé), will be totally blocked, when today you sometimes can see successfull attacks !

This situation I described in the example happened a lot to me in the past, to have only 2 riders to conclude, block the end, around my sprinter able to pass hills. Other teams sometimes had 5riders in the group, but not able to attack, just to sprint, and it was old system, so no train, no need to count on 3 best flatskills, no prob

Interesting, I didn't think about that, and I agree with that, if we have lot of 'tempobonus' attacking will be more and more difficult... (especially in middle mountain races)

just some push

Hope...

maybe good idea: every 30 sec 50m instead of every minute

Team Kazi Blocks wrote:maybe good idea: every 30 sec 50m instead of every minute

1 min sometimes in the sprint is not a lot of time to decide what to do. Esp. when you have to sprint in different groups. So i think 30 secs would be to little time when it's not a straight bunch sprint with only two or three trains.