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I think that the regeneration for tour must be differente to the regeneration between a 2 onedayrace.
my proposal, is that, after every day the riders get back 50 points energie + (reg x 9) - ( 5 x days)
example riders
A with 65 reg
B with 35 reg
after stage 1
A reg 650...B reg 350
after stage 2
A reg 645...B reg 345
after stage 2
A reg 640...B reg 340
after stage 20
A reg 550...B reg 250


as long are the tour , important will be the regeneration

Regeneration would be much more important. Coulieu for example with 35 could never win a grand tour. I think a little bit too important. Could only works, if we announce it one year before...

I think that will be real, look last year giro2010
in moment we have a doping regeneration system, like armstrong winned tour

i Think . that you can give a minimal reg for the fuge riders(350-400).

and i think reg MUST BE important, while that cost a lot of money

in moment we have the same problem with the Mountain value.
in real, by the giro reg are important as the mountain value...
ok, 10 point mountain difference between two riders make a big difference, but 2 or 3 not like in RSF
last year Basso win the Giro, thanks the reg factor,
Nibali, Arroyo and Evans are to weak in the right moment.
In rsf Basso will be after the other 3

Buhmann wrote:Regeneration would be much more important. Coulieu for example with 35 could never win a grand tour. I think a little bit too important. Could only works, if we announce it one year before...

You haven't bought Coulieu in view of winning a GT with him, have you? I also haven't bought old Rodrigo Escobar (Reg 35) with the plan of winning the Giro with him. I even couldn't have known that he will become a 90 climber. Nobody can foresee how a rider will develop. Only thing you can know is that you're not necessarily a GT contender when your climber has 35 Reg. I like Aux' proposal. Better announce it now, as early as possible. Don't thnik 12 month are necessary. Give it 6 or 3.

Buhmann wrote:Regeneration would be much more important. Coulieu for example with 35 could never win a grand tour. I think a little bit too important. Could only works, if we announce it one year before...

Actually Coulieu should never have won a GT. And you agree with that. And I think he wouldn't have won a GT before the "Stufen" either. When adapting the energy system you said should become much more difficult for a 35 reg to win a Tour. I said it's very difficult now, don't gift it to the 65 monsters either. Due to the general problems that as you might remember I demand to rework since then, we ended up with this system now, that in fact makes it easier for 35 reg than it was in the end of the 1 min era. More energy consumption, all support riders are dead after 2 days. That's why... ah, go look for one of the 7000 long posts yourself, they are everywhere.

If since then you have changed your opinion, that with 35 reg you shoudl have as good chances to win a GT as you have now, then it's high time you make reg cheaper. MUCH cheaper. A 86 climber with 63? Reg right now costs as much as Coulieu, roughly 100'000. Shouldn't be much less in our current system, the only reason I haven't asked for a change there is the never dying hope that sooner or later you'll get around reworking the whole energy thing. If you tell me now, that Coulieu shoudl win a GT and that should stay like this in the future:

1) Immediate (and I mean really now) reworking of the price structure, make reg cheaper. MUCH cheaper. If it's going to stay like it is, the reg lovers have paid too much for too long, and you don't plan making reg more important at all, then it needs to be changed today. As a provisional solution until you figure out a definitive one, just not include the reg in the price and salary calculation at all is probably best.

Ah, and of course I'm opposed to Auxs proposal right now.

Race calculation, energy calculation things: STOP BUILDING ON TOP. You have to repair the whole base. Just in case I haven't mentioned that lately...

Buhmann, we still pay for the reg. Stop linking the reg to the salary and buying price NOW.

why? i think 30 point reg are a big difference for a racer if you have mountain hc + crono + mountain hc with 35 reg you can't do nothing with 65 can win 2 race... maybe give it a low price for skill but don't pay the reg don't think is a great idea

I'm in my polemic mood in this thread here....

The advantage of 65 reg of course is there. I won the Giro thanks to that (And correct usage of it, motherfuckers) But while Buhmann said when he changed the system in... 08? that he wanted to make it more DIFFICULT for 35 reg to win a GT in the end it has become easier. And now he says: Don't make it more important? 35 reg should still be able to win a GT? Pff. And while the 65 does have an advantage, it's really really easy to nullify that advantage. A 90 climber with 35 reg? Vs a 90 climber with 65? 90 wins. Give both a helper, the 90+86 both 65 reg, 90 with 35 reg 86 with 50 reg. The advantage is virtually gone. All you need then is more TT and the 35 in GTs usually becomes the favorite. Hell, if Fahrny becomes a 90 climber, with Urganov at 82 and 53 reg I already could make up a lot of my missing reg. With an 82 climber. Not all, damn Urganov needs to be a bit stronger still. But unless it's an extreme weather tour, just one good support rider is enough to make up for a lot of lacking reg.

So, since Buh threatens never to change that, let's not pay for reg anymore, we paid for reg long enough. Cut the salary, cut the salary! Or take back that inflammatory sentence about Coulieu and winning GTs!

The general direction of Aux proposal, actually like that, not sure about the exact calculation, but the general idea, yes. But still, IMO first we have to repair the base. It leaks Coulieunitis.

CUT THE SALARY

well i concord with you for the climbers problem but in this game there aren't only climbers, good reg boys can win easy the red shirt too and can work a lot for a sprinter try to solve the problem again and if can't only than cut

Same thing. the red jersey? Get 2 of them and you have the same. Work for a sprint? No need for x reg guys either, one for early is useful, but not necessary.

CUT THE SALARYYYYYYYYY! EAT CELERYYYYYY

for red jersey reg is very important, while the most of this most you win with a fuge or a lot of work...and roby is right, reg must make a difference,if we pay a salary for this

I agree that reg is too expensive for its benefit. But I do not like the idea that only the nuber of days is taken into consideration. I would prefer a calculation that take the enegy used in the last stages into consideration like:

reg = (1000 - energy)*reg/100 + 2*reg

that means for 50 reg (current situation in brackets)
900 -> 1000 (1000)
800 -> 1000 (1000)
700 -> 950 (1000)
500 -> 850 (1000)
300 -> 750 (800)
100 -> 650 (600)

for reg = 35
900 -> 1000 (1000)
800 -> 940 (1000)
700 -> 845 (1000)
500 -> 745 (850)
300 -> 615 (650)
100 -> 485 (450)

for reg = 65
700 -> 1000 (1000)
600 -> 990 (1000)
500 -> 955 (1000)
300 -> 885 (950)
100 -> 815 (750)

hope you like it

Edit: added the current values in brackets

i think you get a bad way...to mach reg, like a dope race

it is less reg than in the current system (except for riders that are completely dead). I added the effect of the current reg-system for comparison.

There should be NO more connection between the reg value and the salary. Since the reg value advantage that is there in a few races, can be neutralized fairly easily. The salary on the other hand is payed every day.

we spoked about this...but i believe will stay paying Reg salary too.
Change it , or not?

ich mir zu schwer auf english
frage: beweg sich was in sache reg?
mit lohn?immer das gleiceh, man bezahlt fur nicht?

wenn ich die Vuelta sehe, wurde ich meinen schon, eigentlich, eine grosse limit ins spiel, das nimmt weg die chance um etwas offenes rennen zu haben.

No salary for regeneration? If yes, then the price when you buy the rider must me much higher. But in my opinion salary like now is okay. Other way, we must eliminate the salary for TT, too. Because skill is only important for a few races, too.

The enery-system will change a little bit and the next weeks, so i won´t integrate such a regeneration-system you suggest at the moment.

Buhmann wrote:[...]The enery-system will change a little bit and the next weeks[...]

sounds exciting

Okay maybe next month And not 100% sure if it will be changed, won´t promise anything But we are thinking about changing it a little bit to make it more realistic.

and can we know how it will change?

Probably first Buhmann would have to know in that case

well but if he don't prepared it yet he can write here the idea and we can all togheder try to make the best thing possible