Points and money for jerseys during tours

[Buhmann]

I have changed this...but have we ever discussed the 25% more points thing Good riders will have more points in the future.

[Robyklebt]

+25% ?

We never discussed really discussed it, that's correct. And from what I remember from the the old scale you didn't do it either, you did +20%

Short overview of the opinions expressed here about the subject:
Your idea, +25% points for the winner of 1 day races and stages.
Analyzing Ape: Analyzes and comes to the conclusion that that's actually a good idea. Mainly because I think the balance between 1 day races and GC in stage races becomes better.
You: Changes in the World Ranking, riders will earn more points than until now.
Ape and Luna: So what? There are always small changes, if the +25% points (now +20%) itself makes sense, is better than now, do it, it will change some things a bit, but that's unavoidable. And I don't think the change will be enormous. A Leupod, Reynolds wouldn't get 20% more points than now over their career. A guy like Trueba, yes. 54 wins, 54 times he would get 20% more... but in the other 158 races he rode and didn't win, nothing changes. Let's assume Trueba won 30 cat 1 races 14 cat 2 10 cat 3, all one day: (not reality, mix of tours etc as well) He would then get 1230 points more over his whole career. Reality probably is somewhere around there too. Most of the riders around him would gain extrapoints too of course, probably not as much as him though. Of course it's possible that there are riders that gain even more points than Trueba, less wins but higher category, but probably not much more either.

Ok, now you made it +20% instead of +25%, is ok too. Anyway, I think it makes the WR system better, balances GC and stages/1day races better, gives a further advantage to really important wins. Good.

[Buhmann]

Yes, i think so too. Should be okay.

20% instead of 25 because it was easier for me...and why not 20%? Anyway, money is the only thing which let the teams ride in another way. Not the points

[Buhmann]

Yes, i think so too. Should be okay.

20% instead of 25 because it was easier for me...and why not 20%? Anyway, money is the only thing which let the teams ride in another way. Not the points

[Robyklebt]

Because you started with 25%... you said give 20 points more, assumed you looked at ca 1, 80 points, +20=25%. And calculated from that. Now it's +20%, which IMO is ok too.

And the goal isn't necessarily to have people ride differently, but to improve the points system. Better balance between classics and stage races GC, better World Ranking, that reflects the importance of different things better.

[skull]

we just should copy the cq ranking

[Robyklebt]

Has it's disadvantages too though...

[Luna]

In fact

[Robyklebt]

Ok, I continue here! Yes, I know, Buh has other things to do, plus probably not the first thing he wants to do on a saturday morning (although he's a nonsmoker, no clue what else he would want to do after getting up in that case)

Why not think again (or for the first time?) about "money scaled according to category in stage races"?

Not talking about one day races, just stage races and just the final classification.

Example:

Down Under:

In the GC I got place, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 and 24. A brillant result for me maybe, still, how much money should I get for that? I got 271'835. Which in my opinion is just too much. 271'835 for these places??? Yes, 6 in money, but still. That was cat 3, if it was cat 1 I would get the same money. And the same if it was cat 4. Or 5 (ok doesn't exist in that length)

Change it according to categories, along the lines of my earlier proposal. That means: Don't cut the winners money, don't cut the the top places, start cutting further down.

Right now the scale is like this for all stage races, total given out per day is 319800.

My places 17-21+24+38 gave me 201'600 (the rest came from other things probably, Team classement, maybe I was in the top 3 young or sprint or mountain too, don't remember) And that would have been the same for every category.


You basically give out money for no performance by giving that money for these places in a cat 1 stage race. And this is an issue that is creating problems. The Youth market problems, with many people complaining that even when they have money they have no chance to get their riders unless they are there at the time of the refresh. That's because with tours it's just too easy to get money, and not money for real performances, money for basically nothing. My Down Under was a failure with an expensive team, 60k per day I paid, including stages I then won something over 300k. mostly from the GC, where my performance was horrible, nobody in contention at all. Too much and too easy. So everybody gets money easily, so everybody can spend it easily, especially in shorter low cat tours you get money for no performance. Oman a year ago was wonderful for my team, no mountain, just TT, with my 50-60 TT guys I placed lots of them between 10-20, I got RICH!

so make it according to category.

Cat 5= Almost same as now, top 40 get money.
Cat 4= only top 35 get money
Cat 3= only top 30 get money.
Cat 2= only top 25 get money
cat 1=only top 10 get money.

I have a proposal that at first sight I like fairly well, won't post the all the numbers right now, always becomes "unübersichtlich".

Top 10 unchanged, same for every cat, then the differences start. Leave the upper part unchanged because otherwise the risk for teams losing to much money if they try to get the win, but fail is too big. Try to win, only get place nr 5 finally, regardless of category that failure shouldn't be punished too strongly.
The cut is lower and cuts the money that really is undeserved in my opinion.

Anyway, just some numbers so you get an idea what I am proposing:

Total money given out per day for all GC places

Now: 319'800
Cat 5: 322'100
Cat 4: 319'400
Cat 3: 293'500
Cat 2: 280'000
Cat 1: 268'000

With my places at Down Under, per day and for 6 days.

Now: 33'600- 201'600
Cat 5: 33'750-202'500
Cat 4: 33'500-201'000
Cat 3: 24'500-147'000
Cat 2: 18'500-111'000
Cat 1: 10'500-63'000

So here Cat 1-3 lose quite a lot of their money. 4+5 stay roughly the same.

With a bit better places, 8+15+22+33

Now: 25'350-152'100
Cat 5: 25'600-153'600
Cat 4: 25'300-151'800
Cat 3:22'000-132'000
Cat 2: 20'500-123'000
Cat 1: 19'000-114'000

As you see, here the cut is MUCH smaller.

So far your objections were: Less money in winter than in summer?
Problem with that. Why should it be more money in winter than in summer. And that's what's happening in my case.

2010, highest benefit: February, 1,839 Mio. I rode Oman. nr 2 October , nr 3 November.
2009, highest benefit: June, +1,806 Mio: Problem is, Giro ended in early June, payed only one or 2 stages, got the GC money then, in May I made a loss of 1,059 Mio. So "real" benefit in 2009 1. January +1,606 2. November 1,531 3. April, 1,377

And 2011 already looks good too, 3 stage races in January, +1,901

I consistently make more money in winter than in summer. Can't talk for the others, but since my numbers are the only ones I see, I assume it's similar. It depends on the team too of course, a sprinter team that can place spritners in the GC will make more money in January anyway, but last year at this time I wasn't a sprinter team, this year I kind of am.. kind of.

So I don't think there is the danger that the money won in winter will fall below the one in summer. I think it will still stay higher, after all the salaries for cat 1 are usually lower too.

It makes it harder for new teams to get money? 1. Easy solution, offer more D5-6 tours... mmh, another post I want to make but always postpone..
2: If a new team places his GC guys on 17+25+28+39, Petit Singe or another "big" team in that races places his at 22+23+24+27+32... Maybe his leader further up, but irrelevant here. So yes, the new guy will get less money, but the old guy will "lose" more, So the difference between the old and the new will be smaller that it is now.

another advantage: Then you can make the jersey wearing according to category as well. 20k for wearing the maillot jaune? (notice that just for you I use the TdF as an example, I know that you prefer it to the Giro (maybe because you haven't won the Giro?)) I agree that this could and should be more. 30k no problem. 40k don't know, maybe ok too. But 20k fits for cat 1. The same with the other jerseys. Now IMO you can't increase the money, despite some early protest I think 20k for cat 1,2 even 3 is appropriate. Especially for cat 1 more would be a joke. So I think it has to stay at 20k. UNLESS you make it by category, which makes sense. Lots of sense.

So, rethink this big Buh.

My proposal (if after thinking you want to see the exact number, just say so!) cuts money in the lower part of the GC. Money that in lower categories is not deserved. Money that makes the difference between one day races and stage races bigger for nothing.

Rethink, change your mind and introduce it on the first of march.

[Quick]

I summarize Robys Post: Yellow 30k. Green and Red 15k. Especially yellow is with 20k too less right now, no reason to defend it, if you have no chance at the end of the tour, so it's "smarter" to attack with one and go for the sprints instead of killing 2 or even more riders to defend yellow.

Ok, i have not read Robys post. Maybe we could use it as an new punishment? Next one who starts a teamattack has to read, explain and summarize his post!

[Buhmann]

I was suprised because of the summary. But okay, that you did not read the post could be the reason for the content.

[Robyklebt]

I had a hard youth. I had to shovel snow every day. Not like todays youth who plays RSF the whole day, my father had me shoveling snow. Even in summer. He kept a ton of snow in our cellar, then in summer first I had to carry it out in the garden, then shovel it back into the cellar. It builds character he said. I was very unhappy. It didn't matter how much I shoveled, how much snow per day, I always got the same amount of food, the minimum portion. Then, when I was 10 he realised that in winter I sometimes didn't really clean up the walkway to the house, it was too much for this weak small unhappy child. So he started a new policiy. He categorized the amount of snow in the morning. He spent 1h for that every day, he took my education very seriously. So from then on he ordered me to shovel different amounts of snow every day, in summer too, sometimes more, sometimes less. And my food portions than varied according to the amount of snow shoveled. He made 5 categories, Cat 5 was the hardest, but after finishing it (and I had to finish it, broken legs, 41 degrees fever, were not an acceptable excuse) I got the best food, soft bread and fresh milk, Cat 4 I got the same, but just a bit less 3 hard bread and sour milk, cat 2 very hard bread and tapwater, cat 1 only flower and his bathwater. So from then on I was a very happy sweet young boy. To get the better food, I always begged my father to order me to shovel at least a cat 3 snowmountain, which he mostly did, sometimes 2 and 1, sometimes 4 + 5, so the next winter I was strong and motivated, couldn't wait for the real snow to come, got up every morning at 5, (well no change to before, that's when my father woke me up anyway) and was ready to go. Naked of course, my father said that in winter walking around no clothes helped building character. In summer on the other hand I had to wear my winter coat for snow shoveling. But, tragically, that winter it only snowed once, very little. And since I couldn't shovel snow I had to survive on the grass from the garden, once my sister gave me some other grass too, good girl, but otherwise, I was eating the old grass in the garden, and had to drink Coke. The one time it did snow, of course I was in top form, weakened from grass and coke, but thanks to the training from the summer, still motivated. Plus I wanted to put the snow in the cellar, to have something to do in summer, and in the snowless winter days too, so I shoveled snow in the whole neighbourhood. My father wasn't too happy and punished me, he said that was multi accounting, not sure what he meant, but got the point that he had to visit all the neighbours and tell them that I wasn't a pervert walking around naked in the neighbourhood, shoveling snow and attacking all the guys who were trying to shovel snow on their walkways, or hanging out in their gardens transporting the snow to our cellar, naked too. So despite what was probably a cat 15 effort that day I only got the cat 1 food, it never tasted so good though. flower and bathwater! But I had amassed enough snow for the summer, but since that multi accounting argument, that I never really got from my father seemed to be convincing to my mother too, I wasn't allowed to shovel that snow in winter, only from spring to fall. Next winter though, it snowed a lot. And thanks to my motivation from the different food categories I was ready, I happily shoveled snow every morning, on days with lots of snowfall in the evening too, got good food, the fresh bread and milk, and since I got used to grass the winter before, sometimes for old times sake I got myself a portion of grass. Life was good, I was happy. Then summer came, and my father forbid me the snow shoveling, he said by now I was 12, I needed time and energy for masturbation, no more snow shoveling, the food now was according the the amount of semen, but that's another story.

[Quick]

Well... i read your last post. Great story - is every long robypost a story of your childhood? Maybe i'm reading the next longer posts too, it was quite interesting. I have just one question: did you have a cool-garage? Why was the snow not melting? That confused me a lot.

[Robyklebt]

The money and points for the MW still make no sense. Please change that as soon as you can.

[el Galactico]

Giro starting soon. What about the salary system? No chance to adapt the salary to the category of the races?

[Buhmann]

No...

[auxilium torino]

The money and points for the MW still make no sense. Please change that as soon as you can.

Agree 100%...change it NOW
thanks

[Buhmann]

I´ll change it later...

TdF there exists a new points system for the sprint. Should we adapt it?

[Rockstar Inc]

yes...would be nice....at the giro we have adapt the "time bonus system", so we should adapt the new points system too...

[Buhmann]

But not for the finsih, only for small sprints (how you call it in english?). Or is it only usefull if we change all?

[Zentaron]

Intermediate sprints?

You mean to adapt this:

for each intermediate sprint, the first 15
riders to finish will receive 20,17,15,13,11,
10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 points respectively.

?

If yes, than you HAVE to adapt the finish points too. Else (with the normal RSF-System for finish but the real one for the intermediates) you get more points by winning two intermediates than winning at the finish of a flatstage.

So:

for the “flat” in-line stages (art. 22-coeff.
1 ) : 4 5 , 3 5 , 3 0 , 2 6 , 2 2 , 2 0 , 1 8 , 1 6 , 1 4 , 1 2 , 1 0 , 8 , 6 , 4 , 2
points for the first 15 riders to finish;
• for the “medium mountain” in-line stages
(art. 22-coeff. 2): 30,25,22,19,17,15,13,11,9,
7,6,5,4,3,2 points for the first 15 riders to
finish;
• for the “high mountain” in-line stages (art.
22-coeff. 3 and 4): 20,17,15,13,11,10,9,8,7,
6,5,4,3,2,1 points for the first 15 riders to finish;
In the event of a dead heat in a stage finish,
the riders are credited with the number of
points they would receive, divided by the
number of riders concerned. These points
are then rounded up to the nearest ½ point.
• for the individual time trial stage (art.22-coeff. 5): 20,17,15,13,11,10,9,8,7,6, 5,4,3,2,1
points to the first 10 riders to finish.
• for each intermediate sprint, the first 15
riders to finish will receive 20,17,15,13,11,
10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 points respectively.

But what's with that:

In the event of a tie in the general ranking,
the number of stage victories are added
up for each rider, followed by the number
of intermediate- sprint victories; if there
is still no clear winner, the individual time
ranking is used.

?

[Rockstar Inc]

hmm really difficult...but i'd say yes...adapt all or nothing

"no bonuses will be awarded during the intermediate sprints and stage finishes." from letour.com

[Robyklebt]

the bonus thing is obvious, the other stuff less, up to buh.

[Rockstar Inc]

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhmannn!!!!! the decision?

[Buhmann]

The system like in real. Will be in the news.