Lizard: Good point by Buh (doesn't happen often
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
)
OK, as could be a bit expected my posts seem to have killed most discussion, only Lizard and Cerro really continuing with own ideas, other ideas still welcome. Before I continue with my genocide a summary again...
How is it now? What are the main, basic, fundamental energy costs?
mitfahren (following)
- distance: Is in now too, but every km the same. And easily reloadable, my guess it's around 0,3 per km right now.
- tempo: the higher the tempo the more it costs to just follow depending on the relevant skill.
- terrain: up costs energy, probably slightly depending on the skill (not really sure, maybe that's in tempo) down gives back energy.
- help: helping costs energy, getting help saves or gives energy
- weather: Big difference between good weather and bad weather. But with helping a lot of it can be covered, not all, really tough weather makes everybody suffer.
the tempo stuff will come later..
Ok, weather in a way already a bit specialized, help too, but let's include them anyway...
Distance:
Have to make it relevant!Now distance in my view right now is there but doesn't do anything for leaders. Since it's just covered with helpers. Want to change that, I think we need to change that since distance is a part of cycling. A 300 km stage just is not the same as a 100 km stage. Both can be hard... the long one due to its distance, right not that works only for helpers, the short one due to the tempo, that works.
-My proposal again: A non-reloadable cost that increases as the stage gets longer, not a flat cost. 100% non reloadable but actually 80% non reloadable 20% reloadable would be ok too.
- Cerros proposal: The same, but lower numbers hard.
- ?? Other ideas? Are welcome of course
Weather
Similar problem as with the distance in my view. It's in, but the effect is too one sided. In many cases it only affects helpers or unprotected riders. The weather effect right now is fairly strong, cold weather, hot weather, rain, makes a big difference. But an even bigger difference for support riders because they don't get any relief.
- Roby: Make the weather effect softer, BUT the same or similar for everybody. 80 percent non-reloadable, 20% reloadable. The end effect for leaders can be the same as now, but for support riders it should be less than now.
- Cerro: Hard weather, 20 non reloadable, 80 reloadable.
- Same as above... other ideas?
Ok, next up
Help:
Buhmann insists that helpers are weakened so that in the end the strongest are in front. Agree that helpers in the end should be weaker. But what we get right now is:
Paris Roubaix first 97 km:
Leaders: 1000
just riding 960
helpers 894
Not intelligent helping of course... I had 3 leaders with 1 helper each. and 2 riders just riding. You can do much better by a) on off, take them off, let the leaders go down to 990, then back up to 1000 and you probably have the helpers at 920-930... Or you can rotate the helpers, 2 helpers for 4 riders, often you can keep all 4 at 1000 that way, while those 2 helpers will be down at 894. But is that the sense of RSF? To rotate helpers for 50 minutes? For one hour? It will be the same in LBL and Lombardia as well of course. I think right now the helping has become too important. Other example Flanders... Ph. Guggisberg 64-74,7 mountain pavé (adjusted for form) is there in the end. He is actually not strong enough in the mountain, and in fact was dropped along the way, but came back. And he is not strong enough in pavé either, and was dropped along the way. But came back both times. And in the final as a leader he was so much fucking stronger compared to basically stronger riders, but that had been helping their leaders already. He survived the Mur and Bosberg. Because in the Mur only support helpers rode, yes, tactical mistake by others maybe too... still. It's ok that a weaker leader can beat a basically stronger support rider. But 64-74,7 is just very weak. Too weak, shouldn't be there in the end.
Running out of time, wanted to make longer and more complicated explanations...
Short: Define the job of the support rider better.
Watercarrier: He goes and get's water and does all the stuff. And he get's the water for EVERYBODY in the team. Only one necessary, but if have 2, they split the job and cost, 3, the same. If you have 0, everybody gets his own stuff, so is like having 9 watercarriers. The cost? Depends on: Size of the group, the bigger the group the more it costs. Tempo: The faster, the more it costs. PR: Slow tempo or no tempo forever, fairly big group if I remember correctly. Ignoring all other proposed robychanges: Watercarrier should not be at 894 but at least at 920...closer to 950 actually.
Protector: protects the leader to stay out of the wind, helps him get his imaginary position in the peloton etc. cost depending on tempo mostly, he protects him from tempo basically. PR with that laughable tempo? Almost no job...960+
Pampersboy: Later... have to go.
But if there is NO tempo or just sloooow green no reason at all to kill the support riders. You want weakened support riders? Make the race hard. Early in the race.. no reason for these huge differences (with the unloadable distance a lot would probably be gone anyway)