Update sprint balance

[Buhmann]

"Test of sprint balance update

We are working on a better sprint balance. We integrate the new version for the short races. For normal competition races nothing is changed for the moment."

What do you think? I would like to test it, improve it, and then make it available for all the races. So I am looking forward to your feedback. I am sure that it won´t be perfect, but I will try to update it as sonn as possible when I get your feedback.

[sylvainmeteo]

The rolling vs sprinting is nice now, but still the follower loses IMo not enough energy against a guy who is launching (with a 92/93 sprint train, while a 92 launch, he loses 80/90 energysprint while the 93 who follows loses around 30/40... I think 50/60 should be more realistic )

[Buhmann]

Thanks for the feedback.
Do you think the sprint could be tactical enough if the difference between sprinting and following is such low?

[Pokemon Club]

The rolling vs sprinting is nice now, but still the follower loses IMo not enough energy against a guy who is launching (with a 92/93 sprint train, while a 92 launch, he loses 80/90 energysprint while the 93 who follows loses around 30/40... I think 50/60 should be more realistic )

IMO it isn't the follower who lose not enough energy but the sprinter who lose too much. Actually the balance between the sprinter/follower is something like -100 / -30 energy each 50m, let's test something like -80/-30 I sugest =).

Anyway I have a question Buh, what is the effect of the wind during the sprint actually ?

[Pokemon Club]

Definitively the balance advantage too much the follower in short race for me.
And there is the thing "I launch my sprint but the rider in front is too much strong, so I continue to follow him else if I have the order too sprint, like that I don't lose energy", maybe it should be cancel too.

[Eagle]

Wenn Buh schon am Sprint verbessern ist, dann könnte er auch folgendes machen:

1. Sprintbug entfernen, dass wenn ein Helfer sprintet, der Geholfene, ohne Sprint, nicht sprintet. Weis gerade nicht ob der noch da ist.
2. Eigene Züge verbessern: Bedeutet, wenn der Zug von den Sprintwerten her in aufsteigender Folge ist( bester hinten, schwächster vorne), dann sollte dieser Zug nicht durch andere Fahrer unterbrochen werden können. Dies soll nur für den Start des Sprints gelten. Zusätzlich sollten eigene Fahrer, die leicht schwächer sind als der beste im Zug, einen Bonus von ca. 5 Sprintpunkten bekommen, der durch das Helfen entsteht. Wenn dieser Fahrer nun den größten Sprintwert im eigenen Zug hat, dann bekommt er das Hinterrad, ansonsten muss er sich im Vergleich mit den anderen Willigen um das Hinterrad bemühen.
3. Entweder habe ich mich gestern beim Kurzrennen verguckt, aber ich meine gesehn zu haben, dass Fahrer mit mehr Sprint auch mehr Kraft verlieren. Ist das so gewollt?

[Alkworld]

2. Eigene Züge verbessern: Bedeutet, wenn der Zug von den Sprintwerten her in aufsteigender Folge ist( bester hinten, schwächster vorne), dann sollte dieser Zug nicht durch andere Fahrer unterbrochen werden können.

Why shouldn't it be possible to break a train? The stronger / smarter / etc rider would get his position, the colour of the bikes or the team jerseys wouldn't matter in real life. I actually prefer it like it is now compared to the old sprint.

[NicoVanarlo]

2. Eigene Züge verbessern: Bedeutet, wenn der Zug von den Sprintwerten her in aufsteigender Folge ist( bester hinten, schwächster vorne), dann sollte dieser Zug nicht durch andere Fahrer unterbrochen werden können.

Why shouldn't it be possible to break a train? The stronger / smarter / etc rider would get his position, the colour of the bikes or the team jerseys wouldn't matter in real life. I actually prefer it like it is now compared to the old sprint.

The question is: why ist it impossible to steal a wheel? I can understand that break a train is unfair, not funny, etc. But now, it's impossible to steal a wheel, even with +20 sprintskill, it's sad...

[Allagen]

well the short race is not working today. we started a race with 7 teams, but no rider lost energy, you are not able to attack, making tempo, sprinting,....


and now, after the race, we are not able to leave the short race

[Buhmann]

No more feedback? Do you think it is better in short races?

Definitively the balance advantage too much the follower in short race for me.

But in normal races the advantage is much bigger or not? But decrease the advantage anyway?

[Pokemon Club]

No more feedback? Do you think it is better in short races?

Definitively the balance advantage too much the follower in short race for me.

But in normal races the advantage is much bigger or not? But decrease the advantage anyway?

I saw no big difference between short or normal race actually.
Hum question for you Buh, it isn't possible to add a bonus or malus 0/-6 sprint like in the old sprintsystem ?

[Buhmann]

Bonus or malus for what? Random?

[Pokemon Club]

Bonus or malus for what? Random?

For the sprintskill during the sprint. And yes totally random.
Let's explain :

Actually I don't think that the problem is the sprintsystem is good or not (all people have his own opinion about that) but one things is sure, it is too much predictable. We know how power have each trains, who will follow which train, etc... . Some bonus/malus can change that, we won't have always the same sprint scenario : train A can be far stronger/lower than train B else if they are similar skill, asprinter can be amazingly strong 1 day and amazingly weak the day after...I think if it is possible and if you have the time to implent it, it can be not bad to test it at least.

[Buhmann]

Would be easy to implement. I will check this thread in a few days if there are more pro or contras...

[luques]

I like it. But I know a lot of guys will not like.

But in general I agree with poke, a bit of randomness would make things funny (but I already see some guys lamenting about the fact that they work all day to see a bad result).

[Pokemon Club]

I like it. But I know a lot of guys will not like.

But in general I agree with poke, a bit of randomness would make things funny (but I already see some guys lamenting about the fact that they work all day to see a bad result).

Yep, but after it can be like in reality : a sprinter can have always the same train or not) but sometimes good legs are here for the finish, sometimes no.

And I didn't think about that when I propose it, but for escapes or litle riders group it can be an interesting deal too

[sylvainmeteo]

I like it. But I know a lot of guys will not like.

But in general I agree with poke, a bit of randomness would make things funny (but I already see some guys lamenting about the fact that they work all day to see a bad result).

Yep, but after it can be like in reality : a sprinter can have always the same train or not) but sometimes good legs are here for the finish, sometimes no.

And I didn't think about that when I propose it, but for escapes or litle riders group it can be an interesting deal too

I support this idea too

[Robyklebt]

I agree with SM:

The idea is bad.

MY idea would be: Abolish the sprint skill.
Then you have what you are actually trying to build. A system that has no connection to a real sprint, a system that is purely based on energy.
Get rid of the sprint skill.

[team fl]

And old thing seems to be a current problem again: train not working because a rider is in tempo. During todays race at 9h my sprint settings looked like this:

Lars Hirschfeld: Sprint: von vorne; Helfen: Jan Flachbart; Mitgehen bei: niemand
Jan Flachbart: Sprint: Mitgehen; Helfen: Ryan Kilfeather; Mitgehen bei: niemand -> Tempo: Yes, normal
Ryan Kilfeather: Sprint: Mitgehen; Helfen: niemand; Mitgehen bei: niemand

the result was the following: Lars led the train from the beginning, Jan was hanging on him. On Jan, Emile Louis (Chartreuse) was hanging. That was the line. In the meantime, the second train was led by Mervyn McLiam (Sprint: mitgehen), followed by Denis Dupraz (Chartreuse) followed by Ryan Kilfeather (?!). I honestly have not explanation for that, as Ryan was neither following McLiam (then Dupraz would not be in front of Ryan) nor Dupraz.

[Pedrocito]

good good, rsf is in advance with the future of cyclism.
riders just don't care about what managers tell in the ear and just do with their feelings!

[Rockstar Inc]

good good, rsf is in advance with the future of cyclism.
riders just don't care about what managers tell in the ear and just do with their feelings!

pff, first rule: listen to Dave via earphone...second rule: look at your STEM