Bringing the sprinter in position

[Buhmann]

For sprint teams the current system is not satisfying. Random is to important and "parasite team" are to strong. A team without any flat rider (and then without possibility to make tempo for a sprint) has also big chances to win a race, although a real sprinter team with a good sprinter and good flat riders are in the peloton.
Of course, changing the sprint system totally would be really nice. But because this would cost too much time at the moment, i (with talking with a reals sprint team ) suggest the following small feature:

1. decrease the random

2. The best 2 or 3 helpers of your sprinter with the best flat skills bring the leader in position. Therefor he will get a bonus. So if your leader has 3 85er flat helpers, he will get an higher bonus as an sprinter with 3 70er flat riders of course.

Example in the log would be the following:

Sprinter A is bringing in position: Helper A, Helper B, Helper C
Sprinter B is bringing in position: Helper D, Helper E, Helper F
Sprinter C is bringing in position: Helper G, Helper H, Helper I
...
The the normal log like now. Internally the "bringing in position"-thing decides how high the bonus is.

So we have a little little position riding for the sprint. Internally it means, that flat riders give your leader a bonus for the sprint. Real sprinters will have bigger chances to win than now. And not every team can buy a sprinter and steal so many victories like now.

I hope it is clear (beacsue of my great english...).

[olmania]

Intresting.

Few questions:

What will be the difference between the "usual" 2 helpers and the 3 guys which are bringing the leader in position ?
Is it possible for a rider to do both ?
Is it possible for a rider already helped to bring in position his sprinter (which is also helped) ?
Is the flat skill the only one important ? What on 2-3-4-5% or -2/-3/-4 ... ?
Does it changes anything in case of a long distance sprint with a "train" ? Does not matter if the helper whose are bringing the leader in position are also in the train for this same leader ?
What will be the bonus differences of 1, 2 or 3 helps for bringing in position ?

(and probably more questions to come)

[Zentaron]

Bringing leader in position is just for the last kilometre or the kilometre of the intermediate as i understood. And there you just set the helpers like now and they will give their bonus. It is just a passive bonus for being helper of the sprinter. The rest should, in my understanding, not be influenced.
The bonus is a percentage of the flat value of the rider. So if it will be built in that 3 helpers are giving boni and you set only 2, you will lose bonus points.

[NoPikouze]

I the sprint still the same with following other sprinters?
What about non-massive sprints ?

[Pirkio]

i have a question, if a sprinter follow another sprinter but this sprinter is back what happends?

Can we see the trains? something like switch view in the last 10 km only see the position of the group like


Km -10
Rider A Motorizzati
Rider B Motorizzati
Sprinter Motorizzati
Rider A Pippenteam
Rider B Pippenteam
Sprinter Pippenteam
Rider B Cionampoateam
Sprinter Cionampoateam
Rider A FiatTeam
Rider B FiatTeam
Sprinter FiatTeam

Motorizzati is in front Pippenteam is the 2 weel ecc ecc.
In the back all the others who don't make sprint or train.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also the possibility to see the change of the position after each km.

Km -5
Rider A Motorizzati
Rider B Motorizzati
Sprinter Motorizzati
Rider A FiatTeam
Rider B FiatTeam
Sprinter FiatTeam
Rider B Cionampoateam
Sprinter Cionampoateam
Rider A PippenTeam
Rider B PippenTeam
Sprinter PippenTeam

So riders who make the train should lose a lot of more energy! something like 20 each km or more (like real)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
And the chances to see the weel taked during the race!

Km -2

Rider B FiatTeam
Rider B Cionampoateam
Sprinter FiatTeam
Sprinter Cionampoateam
Rider B PippenTeam
Sprinter Pippen Team
Rider B Motorizzati
Sprinter Motorizzati

Cionampoateam is following Fiat Team Pippen Team and Motorizzati haven't a weel
The high energy lost may you force to change rider or a fresh one will take your place!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So if Now FiatTeam try to wollow Motorizzati what happend?
This is what I will LOVE

Km -1
Rider B Pippen Team
Sprinter Pippen Team
Rider B Motorizzati
Sprinter Motorizzati
Rider B FiatTeam
Rider B Cionampoateam
Sprinter Fiat Team
Sprinter Cionampoateam

Or in case of bad energy - bad rider of Pippen Team

Km -1
Rider B Motorizzati
Sprinter Motorizzati
Rider B FiatTeam
Rider B Cionampoateam
Sprinter Fiat Team
Sprinter Cionampoateam
Rider B Pippen Team
Sprinter Pippen Team

How you can see Pippen Team was passed by 3 team becouse he have low energy or low skill respect the motorizzati's one.
So he will have no chances to win becouse he lost the train and is the 4 sprinter and don't have any weel at last km.
Motorizzati isn't followed (in this rare case) so he know that and eccept last km change he will sprint alone (now all is on the ability of rider B if he's strong enought nobody will take him don't forget the 3 energy and don'r forget the skills, i hope is impossible for a 75 take the sprinter near one with 78 so is impossible for the sprinter helped from the 75 take the weel of the sprinter helped from the 78).

So in the last km all is possible, but all depends from the last 10 km. Ability players will be very important, and may be very important also if someone want to try an escape. this metod can maybe be used also for mountain so helpers will become a lot importants and game a lot more strategical

[Radunion]

For me it looks like a bonus for sprinter teams that has little to do with reality, especially if you do not take the energy level of riders into account (else it would be an advantage for teams that do not work). In reality the team that does not work has an advantage. There is a disadvantage if the lead out man have to work before the final. I understand that sprinter teams do not like it, but it would make sprint races more interesting, as the group has real chance if the strongest team want to save 2 or 3 helpers for the final.

I would rather suggest a system that makes it more interesting to create a sprint train. This would mean
- a small malus for every position you are behind. When I am following your sprinter he has to make up 1 bike-length. if A follows B, C follows B, ... , F follows E - F has the biggest advantage in the game but in reality he has little chances as he has to make up 5 bike-lengths
- a malus if you have to fight hard for a wheel, but not if you try to follow your own teammate (no influence of much weaker riders)

[sylvainmeteo]

If we reduce the sprints from 50m it's already good
I purpose something like lose 0,5 pts each 50m (1 pt now) (it's unrealistic to see 80 sprint guys to win in front of 95...

[NoPikouze]

No answer yet... What if it is not a full mass sprint?
What if one has less than 3 helpers?
What in a group with a dead or almost dead puller?
Sprinter teams are nice but as far as i can see they think only about themselves

+ What about energy and followed wheel?

[iBanesto]

Example in the log would be the following:

Sprinter A is bringing in position: Helper A, Helper B, Helper C
Sprinter B is bringing in position: Helper D, Helper E, Helper F
Sprinter C is bringing in position: Helper G, Helper H, Helper I
...

I want more info in the log here. Something like:

Helpers A, B, C did a perfect/good/mediocre/bad/horrible job when bringing Sprinter A in position.

Or make comparative sentences sometimes like:

Team A was clearly/narrowly beaten by Team B for the best leadout.


Rest, see NoPikouze's questions above.

[Zentaron]

What if one has less than 3 helpers?

Already answered.

What if it is not a full mass sprint?
What in a group with a dead or almost dead puller?
Sprinter teams are nice but as far as i can see they think only about themselves

+ What about energy and followed wheel?

Groups were discussed also. At the moment it is said it should be the same for them. As energy does not count, the puller is obviously a nice helper who gives full bonus. But it is not final. Followed wheel? As it is a PASSIVE bonus given by each flatrider that helps (up to the max. number which is still not found - i want three^^), it is given before the normal sprint like we have it now. There is no change in the sprint system at all, you just get a bonus for better flat riders who are helping your guy. It is still possible to be a parasite, but to have chances for winning, it is needed to pay more salary. If the energy would not count, you would punish the ones who work. Counterproductive.

@Pirkio There is nothing to be shown for kilometres, because it is like I already said in my first answer in this thred. It is a passive bonus, given before the sprint. The sprint itself stays the same.

For me it looks like a bonus for sprinter teams that has little to do with reality, especially if you do not take the energy level of riders into account (else it would be an advantage for teams that do not work). In reality the team that does not work has an advantage. There is a disadvantage if the lead out man have to work before the final. I understand that sprinter teams do not like it, but it would make sprint races more interesting, as the group has real chance if the strongest team want to save 2 or 3 helpers for the final.

I would rather suggest a system that makes it more interesting to create a sprint train. This would mean
- a small malus for every position you are behind. When I am following your sprinter he has to make up 1 bike-length. if A follows B, C follows B, ... , F follows E - F has the biggest advantage in the game but in reality he has little chances as he has to make up 5 bike-lengths
- a malus if you have to fight hard for a wheel, but not if you try to follow your own teammate (no influence of much weaker riders)

There are no real trains at all here at RSF at the moment. That is the problem. But creating a new system needs a lot of time which Buh at the moment doesn't have. The system you propose, is a system for teams with two sprinters (or then probably even more?) without any helpers. They build a RSF-train for their sprinters and anybody in their wheel gets a malus. counterproductive. And to the reality argument: It has also nothing to do with reality that a sprinter team isn't able to react to those parasites. Yeah, everybody says we should escape. That is no solution, cause in 98% of the cases there is a damn 79 flatrider with 68 sprint or something like that in your wheel. Okay, maybe better in flat, but still too good in sprint that a helper of a sprint team has any chance.

If we reduce the sprints from 50m it's already good
I purpose something like lose 0,5 pts each 50m (1 pt now) (it's unrealistic to see 80 sprint guys to win in front of 95...

No, it isn't. The 80 sprinters are not the problem at all.

@iban Why? All teams are doing the same job, because it is only a PASSIVE bonus.

[Radunion]

And to the reality argument: It has also nothing to do with reality that a sprinter team isn't able to react to those parasites. Yeah, everybody says we should escape. That is no solution, cause in 98% of the cases there is a damn 79 flatrider with 68 sprint or something like that in your wheel. Okay, maybe better in flat, but still too good in sprint that a helper of a sprint team has any chance.

I do not see how in reality a team can react to parasite sprinters. You have the same options in real live as in the game. Either attack and your chances to win out of the group are smaller than in a bunch sprint, or stop to ride and risk that the group wins (and hope that the parasites learn the lesson). Especially in big tours some teams with good gc chances have a 'parasite sprinter' in their team (e.g. Freire for Rabobank or Zabel for T-Mobile, maybe Cavandish for Sky if Wiggens has real good form this year?).

And I think it is possible to make a simple simulation of lead out trains with the current sprint system. One solution would be to make flat riders good lead out man if you start the sprint early. For example if you open the sprint from 500 the for bonus you get from your lead out man sprint is as important as flat. This would of course mean that you have to train special lead out man for your sprinter, but this should make is less interesting for other teams to have a parasite sprinter.

[Zentaron]

No, it makes nothing uninteresting, cause you need only one leadoutman. The only thing that makes it uninteresting is the money. And better flat riders are more expensive. And if you need them, you think twice about taking two or three sprinters with you.
That's the main difference between reality and RSF, here money is for many many many teams much more important than other things.

And as i said: in reality you can send a helper in an escape and his chances are oftentimes good. Here in RSF, real sprint helpers are bad sprinters (otherwise they are more expensive and sprinter teams here are mostly poor teams and can't buy that kind of rider that often) and so they are useless in escapes. If you don't work in the group because of your sprint skill, the group most times is dead and at the end the parasite has nothing to learn. (Btw. because of the money they earn this way they do not want to learn anyway.)

Btw. if you mean with lead-out-man a guy with 82 flat and maybe 62 sprint, so sprinter teams would need such a guy too with your proposal, so they are going to be unable to pay their salaries much faster then now?

And yeah, maybe in reality some teams have a parasite sprinter. But here at RSF nearly every team has one and these are much more then in reality. And so here you can bet on nearly every race that there will be at least one, oftentimes more, because some times are specialized to this.

And this proposal is mostly against these who are buying many leaders but no helpers. The teams with helpers but maybe bad training sprinter maybe can profit too.

[Ciclistas]

hm, interessting.

whats your thoughts about how high this bonus should be?

say, two 94 sprinters. one has 3 92 helpers, the otherone 3 85 guys... and will there be a random at the bonus too?

cicli

[Buhmann]

Thanks Zentaro for answering the questions. All correct.
And as he said, this is the simple soulution which i could integrate soon.

say, two 94 sprinters. one has 3 92 helpers, the otherone 3 85 guys... and will there be a random at the bonus too?

Don´t sure how high the bonus should be. We can discuss that (or i decide it)
No random bonus. The random for the sprinter is enough.

I think in small groups we should not have this helper bonus. Only for big fields it makes sense in my opinion.

[flockmastoR]

I think in small groups we should not have this helper bonus. Only for big fields it makes sense in my opinion.

In km1 groups its absolutely senseless (if you use 1 rider as puller and the power level doesnt count)

What group sizes do we talk about? I guess a Hügelheinz group is mostly big enough, whats about the 70-70? is a 70-80 with 66 sprint and just 1 helper in the end absolutely chanceless against a big classic team? What about the big Heuser-Schrödinger double attacks? Let's say Frida Kahlo follows: Is she absolutely chanceless in this case (1 sprint point difference, without bonus its very open, but with helper bonus?)

[auxilium torino]

should be the helper in tempo?

if is a train wuold be yes the right word in my eyes

[Buhmann]

It is not a train. Only bringing the sprinter in front of the peloton.

[flockmastoR]

forget that "in front of" blabla its just a bonus without changing anything else

[Robyklebt]

It's not a reform, it's a hopefully short term solution to solve the main problem we have there right now.

[Buhmann]

Yes. This is only the logical explanation for the bonus.

[auxilium torino]

ok, let me understand

example:
i have a 93 sprinter, 3 90 flat helper, look the race, no one km. tempo, sprint ... i take a bonus

BSE have a 93 sprinter, 7 88 helper, ride like a crazy all race to have a MS, and their bonus is small then mine?

for me this is not a solution

solution will be with good helper bonus + rided km. in peloton bonus, like a morale bonus

[Radunion]

I was thinking about the influence no medium size groups (15 - 40 riders), that you get if you ride for a hill sprinter or classics sprinter. I fear that the influence there is bigger as many teams do not have 3 helpers left. I especially see problems if you make an exception for small groups and give the full bonus if there is just 1 rider more - somebody will drop one of his riders to eliminate the bonus.
I think we should keep the bonus low for medium size groups by

1) reduce the bonus for smaller groups, e.g. no bonus for groups under 15 or 20 riders, than the bonus raises linear and you get the full bonus if the group has more than 50 or 60 riders

and/or

2) riders with low flat skills have little influence (like climbers), for example by giving riders under 80 flat no bonus, than a slow increase of the bonus until 85 and a higher increase of the bonus for every point above 85

[flockmastoR]

@aux its nothing that brings parasites to ride more but if they want to have the same chances they need to have at least a better team and the have to pay more money. And it decreses the chances for teams like chaos to start with 2 92 sprinters and 2 79sprinters because not all of these riders get the big bonus, maybe he has to concentrate on 1 92 or he leaves the 79 at home because 1 of them has to help in the end to get 3flat riders for both sprinters

[flockmastoR]

@Rad: I am for no bonus in smaller groups it just makes it impossible to win as "co favo" without a Ueberteam in many situations

[auxilium torino]

as i remember, Chaos was ever with 2 good sprinter and 4-5 good helper, but anyway was not helping...but , i don't know, let see what happens.

at least, if i come with 3 sprinter and 3 good helper, and i don't work, will be change, for sure, but in positive?

sometimes, the weak helped teams worken a lot at start, and one godd teams hold the MS at end, at the same time 2-3 teams with good helper ride not a km.
now, in this situation, you cannot more ask to help to the others teams, you must ride alone.
let teams with good helper ride, this will be a good change