Regeneration

[Buhmann]

Roby, give him a short introduction. Short...

[Robyklebt]

The BASIS sucks.

[Robyklebt]

The forum sucks, can't find my old long rants about this....

Plus nobody complains about my short answer? You guys suck too.

The problems should be obvious to everybody (that's me telling everybody they are idiots in a gentle way) but I post them anyway:

Until Nov 08: 1 km - 1' races shortened, and only one tempo, red.
Change, the 30" tact, and Buh at the same time had to adjust the power a bit of course, longer races, and introduced the intensity at the same time. A lot changed because of that, not all positive.

Helping: Developed for red tempo. Which is what was ridden before, nothing or red. Now it's looooong green stretches, which cost much less energy but the help is like for red tempo. So in the end helping is much muich much more effective than it was before (then Buh actually was decreasing the effectiveness of helping) Which makes long races easier for leaders than short ones. Which makes reg for many types of riders fairly irrelevant.

All of it in the end was a "temporary solution". The fear that that was Buhmann special sense of humour, "temporary" meaning done, out of my mind for the years proved right.. (that's my gentle way of calling Buh an idiot)
The temporary solution in the end was the right decision. The intensity changed too much, nobody could have foreseen what exactly was needed to make it "good".
Buh made a system, then increased and decreased the energy cost a bit in the first month, adjusted it up, down, ended up where we are now. Which is a soft version. Problem was if we increase the cost, the energy level then was better for leaders, but support riders dead. So ended up at this level.

So of course the basics don't suck, they just aren't very good. Playable yes, but nothing more.
Now we have more experience to know what's needed.

Goals: Don't know what Buhmann's goals are, he has to tell you.

Mine? Which I'll try Buh to convince are the right ones:

- Make reg a bigger factor. No, don't gift 65 reg guys GT wins. But make it much much much harder for somebody with 35 to compete. Right now with a support rider a 35 reg guy doesn't have big problems, if he has the top skill needed (mountain, TT, talking about stage races obviously)
- Make longer races different from shorter ones again. Can't explain it, but with the reform of 08 a lot of the charm of long races has gone. It's the same as short races nowadays, just longer, no different "feeling". Probably because the leaders just stay fit. Fitter than with short races. Oh, I explain that one:

_________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________

Same profile, an exciting one too, but different length. Which race will be harder for protected riders?? The first one. Why?

_________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________

Simplifying it a bit... the short race will be at high tempo, high intensity. The long one will be green. all green. Even 40 km from the end it will be green. Yes, maybe the guy in tempo rides red, but his level of fitness makes the tempo green. The leader doesn't suffer. Only in the end he will suffer. The short race is simulated quite well. Short, intense, high tempo all the way. Good. But the long one not at all. Support riders will suffer, a lot yes, but leaders not at all. Change that.


Bah, forget the goals, go to the solutions, Buh said short.

Solutions: Don't know, Buh will have to see...
Again I know what I'll be pushing, well have been pushing for 2,5 years.

Right now we have one kind of energy. Make that 3. INTERNALLY, not externally, no stupid ProCycling manager bullshit second bar. All internally. The user sees the same as usual, the energy the rider has.

- like now, reloadable, protectable with support riders.
- not reloadable, unprotectable
- automically reloaded

what is where, easy examples:
- not reloadable: parts of weather. rain? Right now fully protected. 1 guy carries an umbrella, the other one a powerful drier to dry the road ahead of the leader, he doesn't feel the rain. Or the heat. Or anything. He's superhuman, he's an APE! Parts of weather are not protecteable, not reloadable. Yes, maybe a support rider can help a bit if it's raining, So 90% rain not protectable, 10% protecteable, something like that
-automatically reloadable: sprint, a sprint at km 150 of a 200 km race isn't really felt at km 200. make that automatically reloaded. Maybe 90-10 with automatic reloaded and like now.
- like now: Parts of many things, following the pace, wind,

Helpers:

- Specialize a bit. The watercarrier who gets water for all.
- adjust the effect to the need. That means, don't give helpers red effectivness in if the pace is green like now. Eliminate the mind dumbing "racing in the tactics menu changing the helpers every 2 min because then with 2 helpers you keep 5 guys at 990+" If the tempo is green, the effect of a helper is only x percent. if blue, only x percent, if red, 100% (again, mean the real tempo, not the colour of the guy in tempo obviously, a 50-50 with 200 energy in red is green actually)

Other thing:

Add "distance"
Right now every km costs x. Easily reloadable. Make that progressive and partly unreloadable. The first 100 or so km, reloadable, then more and more unreloadble, and more and more cost. Let's say km 1 costs 1 (way too much, as an example) reloadable. Km 100 cost 2, relaodable. Km 150 cost 3, 2 reloadable, km 200 cost 5 2 reloadable, km 250 cost 10, 2 reloadable. Make all the riders feel the distance. So that the difference between the short intense race (good now) the standard 180-200 race and the long 250+ race is there. Not like now where the longer the easier for leaders.

Effects: Reg becomes more important. Some riders become less good for stage races. 35 reg leaders or luxus helpers (not sure if that's english, probably not... edelhelfer, gregario di lusso..) are weakened. No more 70-80-79 with 35 reg that have no problem doing their work a whole tour. No more 90-60-xx 35 reg climbers that with or without a second climber can manage to stay in reg a whole hard GT (Fahrny 37 Giro, never under reg, yes, not always easy, but not that hard either) Sprinters with 35 reg too, they might not have enough reg for sprint stages right after hard mountain stages, at least if they are left unprotected (right now, don't protect them and it's ok, no problem most of the time, just don't ride with them) NOT a desired effect, to make it tooo easy for 65 reg monsters. Let's say 45 becomes the new 35, something like that. Maybe a very strong 35 can even still have a chance, but he'll not be at 1000 every day. When now you reach the bottom of the Zoncolan most climbers where way over 900, maybe then they'll only be at 800 or 850, don't forget, we had the Crostis at RSF. With rain could be even less. But it's not the goal to have climbers arrive at 650 after 200 km either. When now 1000 after 200 km with 3000 meters climbing, before a final 10 km climb, maybe 950 from the distance, 900 from other unloadable stuff. And if the weather is ultrahard, then yes it can be down to 850 already.


Something like that is what the ape is pushing, if Buh follows apeisms, will be seen.

[NoPikouze]

I see and I like it. But it's quite complex.

After the first lines of your post 'I didnt follow the whole topic), I was simply thinking: Keep it as in the current situation but make the loss of energy bigger. For leaders, for helpers...
Then you would automaticlly make reg more important + helpers will be fairly useless in the end of the race (and no more helper attacks who can beat the peloton, or helpers who can catch early-attacking leaders). As I see it, then it would be a bit more fights of man to man. And also increase the advantage of reg if everbody finishes with 100 or 150 power.
Ok, guys who suck and have several fit leaders would have an advantage, hmm.

Anyway, this was just my first and simple thought. The complex solution is much better of course. I hope it will be possible to make it real

[Pirkio]

You sucks this is not short


Btw I've read all and quite like it (my climber have reg 44 so I have to hate this)
I like the part help = red tempo, maybe too much exagerate better blue tempo but no green the big team usualy let make tempo to 3 guys, 1 is the leader 1 is the help for the leader in the last 30 km 1 is a sprinter no work and sometimes one help. Last 2/3 are for help the leader or for an escape but with help = red tempo in a race of 200 km you need more than 3 help with blue maybe you can have the same 2 for all the race.

But maybe now we need riders with more reg? and we need to pay it more than now..

[Robyklebt]

That was the short version

Make it harder for everybody as NoPik says, bah, no there is the problem, then the support riders are just dead. With the internal 3 energy things, the whole thing actually, once implemented, would be easier to regulate than now. If Buh feels the "span" leader-support rider is too small, or too big, he can regulate that more easily. Right now the only way to regulate is would be by the cost of helping (I think) Plus I think making it more man to man in that sense, everybody half dead in the final risks promoting the opposite effect. Less man to man, more controlled from the back to keep everybody helping the leaders. IMO we see that already know compared to 08. Helpers are much more effective now then then, the 9 riders syndrome, always need 9 riders in the group which I laughed about then makes sense now... one more helper is just too important too have. Wasn't back then. And it's logically it's more "bring all helpers back " then it was then.

Moto: Make reg more expensive? It is expensive now... my old example, Buonarroti with 63? 62? reg with 86 mountain cost as much as Coulieu with 90 mountain, salarywise. Right now reg is just overpriced, making it more relevant would adjust it to the price.

[Radunion]

Looks quite good, but still some questions or details that should be considered:

1) Does this mean that the flat value for mountain riders and sprinters becomes more important?

2) I want to know how much energy I can regenerate, just to make the helping setting easier. There is no point in giving a guy many helpers if they will have no effect.

3) Different riders should have a different effect as helpers, just look at the strong riders BMC had to keep Cadel out of trouble on "flat" (not high mountain) stages. In the current system in many races 3-4 riders of the team just have to be cheep and maybe survive early splits, which makes a 60-60 a desirable rider (how many bottle he can bring his captains when the tempo is high?).

[auxilium torino]

100% agree roby word...
Give maybe another pair of things that can implement too, or change, write but tonight, now race and work

[Buhmann]

2 things:

1. Making tempo, attacks, following attacks, sprints will be quick reloadable things or? (70% quick, 20% reloadable, 10% not reloadable for example). Of course at the end they have to get the automatic reloadable energy back. Means for escapers and sprinters, the reg will not be mire important as now. But in my opinion thats not really a problem.

2.

Right now every km costs x. Easily reloadable. Make that progressive and partly unreloadable. The first 100 or so km, reloadable, then more and more unreloadble, and more and more cost. Let's say km 1 costs 1 (way too much, as an example) reloadable. Km 100 cost 2, relaodable. Km 150 cost 3, 2 reloadable, km 200 cost 5 2 reloadable, km 250 cost 10, 2 reloadable. Make all the riders feel the distance. So that the difference between the short intense race (good now) the standard 180-200 race and the long 250+ race is there. Not like now where the longer the easier for leaders.

Why such an unrealisitc solution? It´s a fake..okay, not a big problem if we fake something to make it more playable. But i don´t see the reason for it. If we make the weather unrealoadable (or 50% of it) we still have the distance problem solved. So i don´t want to implement this, because in my opinion it is not necessary.

[Pirkio]

so now there will be 2 different way to lose energy?

quick(step) and normal

If is this i like something like that:

Attack= quick reload, and maybe if possible don't lose the 10% of the energy for any red attack, but this last thing have to be discuss from the expert players not from me.
Tempo= more compless..quick reload, but for ever km you lose more unreoable energy (ex) 1 km tempo 20 energy (19 r - 1 u) 10 10 km tempo 20 energy (15 r - 5 u) + all the thing say from roby is a good stress for helpers.
Sprint= maybe sprint have to be 50/50 don't know, i don't talk about sprint at end of the race, but sprints during the race like gpm.. i don't like them but if we don't give the opportunity to regenerate that energy i think all will prefere attack or not?

Other things i wanna know:
Energy lost with rain and wind during tempo attack and sprint,
Energy lost with 40° or 10° (number are example) during tempo attack and sprint,
BETTER SIEB IN DOWNHILL OF RIDERS WITH LOW ENERGY AND NOT ONLY WITH HEAVY RAIN,
Energy lost with tempo of a big group

[Robyklebt]

Buh

1: Something like that. I don't want to tell you in detail since you don't need to know everything No, quick reload at the end, yep, but, I'd like to put a cap on the quick reload energy. 150 or so. If that energy "topf" is full, the rest of the "quick" reload energy goes into the normal reload one. Plus.. not really sure green tempo should actually be quick reload. But that will probably make it complicated for you,since tempo energy is just tempo so far I guess. And, I think reloading the Quick way should still depend on some conditions. Which you probably won't like, but a 3 man group one sucking... not sure he should actually benefit from the automatic reload there.

2: Mmh, wrong and right, actually now that I think of it you might be right.
Wrong on the unrealistic. IMO it's very realistic that you feel km 250 more than km 150. Even hobby riders like us. At some point you just feel those km more in your legs. So I don't think that it's an unrealistic solution at all.
BUT, you might be right that it's not needed if the weather and so on is mostly unreloadable, then of course 250 will be harder and cost more energy than 150. Then that distance is not needed. Still, keep it in the bakc of your head in case the weather turns out to be soft.. if the difference between 150 and 250 km is 10 energy with ideal weather. That's not enough.

Pirkio
Tempo, not sure I got the tempo thing right now.
Sprint IMO has to be more than 50/50,

Other things i wanna know:
Energy lost with rain and wind during tempo attack and sprint,
Energy lost with 40° or 10° (number are example) during tempo attack and sprint,

Don't really know, you mean the number? Normally it should just be rain+the other action, added.

BETTER SIEB IN DOWNHILL OF RIDERS WITH LOW ENERGY AND NOT ONLY WITH HEAVY RAIN,

Buh has a good idea on that one. But not sieb of low energy and weak riders, more new attack. Which is better.

Energy lost with tempo of a big group

Again don't really get the question. Tempo with many riders, all in tempo?

[Pirkio]

Buh has a good idea on that one. But not sieb of low energy and weak riders, more new attack. Which is better.

Something like attack with no energy lost? I think i should like it, let's see the final work

[auxilium torino]

maybe the first change in energie reload must be:
in moment
No tempo, no reload(only in downhill, i think you can reload)
green tempo, yes, reload
no really real, or?

second, attack and red tempo must have with an similar energie price(one rider in tempo in group)
i say more time, if a rider in red tempo can lost only 1 second by an attack from a similar rider, can not be real that one spend 100 energie and the other 30-40...

Tempo in mountain, and follower rider in group.
in moment not very real, that one rider spend 300, the other 150...
in mountain, if Contador ride in front, the other cannot spare the energie, but in real spend more then Contador to stay togheter

I read another thread wo everybody want, that follower of an attack, must spend less energie then the attackman...not really real also,i think, see Contador example, remember by Giro, Scarponi and Nibali try to answer back to Contador, and that was an big error;both lost more energie then Contador, not 50%, while their follow...

[Pirkio]

Well, during the climb maybe an equal lose of energy for all the climbers depending of tempo, or maybe who make tempo lost 10 - 20 more but if an 88 make tempo one 85 have to make his choise, lets drop and go with his own tempo or try to resist but lose much more energy than the 88. For another 88 is more easy follow so will spend less energy than the 88 in tempo and than the 85

[flockmastoR]

well but we also need a better solution for the mountains. there is not much tactics in final climbs, just red tempo or red attack (or following and hoping for the right wheel).

[Pirkio]

it's what i say, give the opportunity to all to make theyr choise

[Robyklebt]

1) Does this mean that the flat value for mountain riders and sprinters becomes more important?

Don't really see why actually. Not as far as I can tell.

2) I want to know how much energy I can regenerate, just to make the helping setting easier. There is no point in giving a guy many helpers if they will have no effect.

I would clearly prefer a system where we don't know how much energy would be possible. Feeling. Risk. Gamble. Prefer it to a "know it all" system.

3) Different riders should have a different effect as helpers, just look at the strong riders BMC had to keep Cadel out of trouble on "flat" (not high mountain) stages. In the current system in many races 3-4 riders of the team just have to be cheep and maybe survive early splits, which makes a 60-60 a desirable rider (how many bottle he can bring his captains when the tempo is high?).

Like this one! The strenght of the rider has an effect on his value as a helper!
Watercarrier for example... here not sure if a 50-50 should have a negative effect on his leaders, but he certainly should use much more energy than the 50-90 who goes and gets bottles. And yes, in red tempo the 50-50 probably should also have a negative effect on his teammates, like that.

As well for the watercarrier: The cost per rider (if you have no water carrier all riders get their water themselves) depends on
- value of the water carrier (as Radunion said)
- size of the group he is in (bigger-longer way, 15 man group, virtually nothing)
- temperature (how much water do the riders actually need)
- tempo (higher tempo, higher cost obviously)

[chaos_men]

mhh gibts auch irgendwie ne übersetzung für deutsche die nicht wirklich hier english können sondern gebrochen ma die sätze zusammen würfeln??

sorry aber habe nur schul english unsere lehrerin war nicht wirklich überzeugend und gut und das is nun auch schon 13 jahre her

[Radunion]

1) Does this mean that the flat value for mountain riders and sprinters becomes more important?

Don't really see why actually. Not as far as I can tell.

The question is how the non-reloadable energy is effected by the tempo of the group (and rider values). No, or a very small, influence sounds not very realistic, but could make sense for our one-legged leaders.

At least in difficult races the energy loss should depend on the tempo and rider values. After a difficult mountain stage the 65-85 should be the strongest rider in the flat and not the 50-90 (who has lost energy in the mountains), and the early formation of a large gruppetto should make sense for sprinter teams.

[Robyklebt]

At least in difficult races the energy loss should depend on the tempo and rider values. After a difficult mountain stage the 65-85 should be the strongest rider in the flat and not the 50-90 (who has lost energy in the mountains), and the early formation of a large gruppetto should make sense for sprinter teams.

Fully agree with the goal. But not sure if that would mean unreloadable energy loss due to tempo ... I would have actually thought that following tempo should be reloadable, if making tempo becomes partially "quick reload" making following unreloadable... mmh, but has it's "Reiz" too now that I think of it. Will think more. But would rather go the way of making climbs, meaning the altitude difference partly unreloadable. Maybe everything over 2% has a fairly high unreloadable part. Basically like now, but unreloadable. Right now "I think!!!!" climbing regardless of tempo costs a bit more for a 42-87 than a 60-60, that should stay, but unlike now it shouldn't be reloadable anymore. Then the changes shouldn't affect the climbers and sprinters negatively due to their lower flat skill. Bringing that one up.... Buhmann actually seems less convinced than I am, and as you know I'm not fully convinced of it (not fully completely opposed either) So I'm mostly ignoring that option for the moment.