Try again to make downhills

Pirkio · Post by **Pirkio** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:19 pm

ok.. all we have in the eyes the beautiful nibali during the downhills at giro 2011.. why we in rsf can't have better downhills? all the italian comunity want it, now, for vuelta 2011!

Buhmann · Post by **Buhmann** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:46 pm

What exactly is your suggestion now?

Pirkio · Post by **Pirkio** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:04 pm

give a bonus to all the riders with downhill, downhill isn't for all and riders with 50 will lost 10 seconds for each km to riders with 80 not only 2 - 3 is a general suggestion not only for one case

Radunion · Post by **Radunion** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:55 pm

We just have the percentage of the downhill, not how technically difficult it is. 10 s/km is too much for many roads (think about the tour, not the Giro).

But I do not think the problem is time a 80 downhill can win on a 50 downhill rider. First there are not many mountain riders with downhill values much below 70, there are some classics riders with low downhill, but they have helpers for the downhill. Which leads me to the 2nd problem. 1 rider is enough to lead a group down the mountain. In reality the favourites are often slower as they take less risk and some have to drop when the tempo gets to high.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to make more difficult for riders to follow high tempo in the downhill (not attacking). This means the loose more energy and maybe are also easier to distance. Or include a risk factor factor for the downhill. If you put risk on there is the possibility that a rider falls and loose up to a minute on this km.

Pirkio · Post by **Pirkio** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:53 am

Downhills aren't only in the giro... just look tour 13 - 14 - 16 - 17..

During Real giro Nibali takes 1 minute in mountain, after 1 km he was back in Contador group.. is rsf he just take back 6 seconds after all the downhill

The basical idea is this..
1) Give 1/4 of the actual downhill riders (just 8 - 9 every month and 1 79 like for 56 - 74)
2) Make downhill more important skill (it's ok to start to pay it much but pay less reg or avoid to pay like Roby want.. untill don't become stamina for the tours)
3) After some month we have all climbers with 8x - xx - 50 or 8x - xx - 60 and a few climbers 8x - xx - 7x)

Radunion · Post by **Radunion** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:18 pm

6 sek/km are 1,5 minutes on 15 km downhill, this is quite a lot. To get more time in reality you need a very twisty downhill, preferable on a small read, which is not in its best condition, or slightly wet. Rides who take larger risks can also take more time. How much did Nibali win per km when he tried to get the Contador group back? Also he is very good on the downhill this looked dangerous - at least more dangerous then in the Contador group.

Normally a race is won uphill not downhill. This is the reason why Contodor won the Giro not Nibali.

auxilium torino · Post by **auxilium torino** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:22 pm

Radunion wrote:6 sek/km are 1,5 minutes on 15 km downhill, this is quite a lot. To get more time in reality you need a very twisty downhill, preferable on a small read, which is not in its best condition, or slightly wet. Rides who take larger risks can also take more time. How much did Nibali win per km when he tried to get the Contador group back? Also he is very good on the downhill this looked dangerous - at least more dangerous then in the Contador group.

Normally a race is won uphill not downhill. This is the reason why Contodor won the Giro not Nibali.

Not ever right..Savoldelli was named "the Falcon", for their ability to ride descent and win race thanks this!
Also Nibali win in 2010 one epic stage at Giro (14th stage) thanks the downhill skill!

Pirkio · Post by **Pirkio** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:41 pm

Radunion wrote:6 sek/km are 1,5 minutes on 15 km downhill, this is quite a lot. To get more time in reality you need a very twisty downhill, preferable on a small read, which is not in its best condition, or slightly wet. Rides who take larger risks can also take more time. How much did Nibali win per km when he tried to get the Contador group back? Also he is very good on the downhill this looked dangerous - at least more dangerous then in the Contador group.

Normally a race is won uphill not downhill. This is the reason why Contodor won the Giro not Nibali.

You say it in the right way.. Normally but i see during tour 2011 race who can't be win only in mountain.. Samuel Sanchez too great downhill skills

Pirkio · Post by **Pirkio** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:44 am

let's think about tour de france:

ET 12.. 19 km of pure downhill from -10% top a lot of -8% and -7%..

Now in rsf: maybe with luck 20 seconds
Real races: Nibali maybe will take too 2 minutes maybe 3? another one 1,30 - 2 minutes
What's good for us? i think 1 minute is ok, i want to try to attack there take my minute and do my best during the last climb maybe i will win? maybe not? it depends but almost i try..

ET 16.. 8 km of downhill from -8% to -4%
Not much but is at the end of the race, maybe a racer (my Pande 70 - 81 - 79) will attack there and take home the final win
Now in rsf: 5 seconds? or 8?
Real races: 30 seconds - 1 minute
What's good for us? i think 12 - 18 seconds are ok too it depends from who follow in the peloton.

ET 17.. 6 km of donwhill but -12% and two -11%
Now in rsf: 10 - 12 seconds
Real races: 45 seconds 1 minute
What's good for us? Like for the +12% i don't understand why it can't be selective for all, in group, in peloton, in escape. 20 seconds but with a split of all the shit 40 - 50 and 55 is enought.

how you can see this are the 3 most important downhill stages for the tour de france, stages where someone can make difference, stage where someone can take gold seconds for the GK..

i think always teams with riders with 45 - 65 downhill says:" NO I DON'T WANT THIS" but downhill is part of the game like is part of the races.. if we can sieb in hill we have to sieb in downhill, for sure not in a easy way but now we have no way for sieb with downhills (shit heavy rain just 1 time every 50 races not fun and not cool.)
And don't forget for an attack you lose energy.. So an attack in downhill is 100% no effective now... we need a radical change for downhills i think is the most important stuff to do in the game now, we have downhills every day and every day lose chances to make the game fun and competitive.

So if someone can attack this ok do it NOW, there is NO ONE reason for don't have more selective downhill... If you aren't chickens like mr. doping Contador

Pirkio · Post by **Pirkio** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:52 am

Radunion wrote:This is the reason why Contodor won the Giro not Nibali.

No, reason is called Doping

auxilium torino · Post by **auxilium torino** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:01 am

Pirkio wrote:
Radunion wrote:This is the reason why Contodor won the Giro not Nibali.
No, reason is called Doping

If Contador win the Giro will be annonced in august! at moment for me , Scarponi win the Giro, Contador don't exist

Robyklebt · Post by **Robyklebt** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:18 am

you completely forget green and red tempo.

nibali coming back when dropped: red tempo vs green tempo.
Nibali attacking red tempo vs red or blue. that's the difference. how much did he win on the giau descent?

when nibali or savoldelli goes in the downhill, they don't win a minute when the others follow red. see savoldelli on the zoldo alto stage in 05, what did he win, 10-20'' to basso and simoni, more to that idiot rujano since the braindead guy didn't realize he could win the giro he went down with no tempo at all...
(even with he loses time of course..) that's what happens when all ride, the good downhillers gain time, but nowhere near the numbers you are throwing around... it's tactics, no tempo, green, blue vs red.

can or should there be changes in the downhill, yes, but not the changes you are proposing, or not all. the differences actually seem more or less ok, see green/blue/red, the siebabiltiy, or forcing an attack, costing shitloads of energy, that yes, make it more siebable.. but different siebing than mountain, more single riders going out in front or being dropped in the bacc.

aux, contador doesn't exist? mmh, you seem obsessed by him actually...

Pirkio · Post by **Pirkio** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:03 pm

Robyklebt wrote:you completely forget green and red tempo.

nibali coming back when dropped: red tempo vs green tempo.
Nibali attacking red tempo vs red or blue. that's the difference. how much did he win on the giau descent?

when nibali or savoldelli goes in the downhill, they don't win a minute when the others follow red.

I think if others don't follow nibali is becouse they can't, if you have the opportunity to go, you go.. Always the best rider make tempo in downhill others stay in the back at 2 - 3 seconds and try to follow him, but some of this lost a lot of time, or if they risk they falling down from the mountain like Frank Shlek.. Is ability, if we have to pay, we have to use.. or just make all riders with no downhill

Robyklebt · Post by **Robyklebt** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:37 pm

your answer has nothing to do with my answer actually..

auxilium torino · Post by **auxilium torino** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:57 pm

right, roby, you cannot win so much in downhill, but in real race you win also not so much again nibali in flat.

remember that Nibali is a passista scalatore, a typ of riders that in RSF don't give...Stringer Bell with superb downhill skills, maybe, but a little more Mountain(2 points?)
contador have this 4-5 points more, then let win the stage and precious second for GC in mountain, and for sure, contador is not a 48 downhill

.

Relativ to the RSF game, you must give all mountain riders a minimal of 70 flat, and after can give real limit at downhill.
You must also change the mountain attack effect, while in 5-8% are to little to win in 90% of the race, but not in RSF.
15 km. with 3-4 % uphill can make selection too in real race, not in RSF...

in moment all good skills are to important, but downhill not!

i see two solution..make mountain and flat less selective, or make downhill more selective...
and naturally, energie waste must be changed too, Regeneration for sure, but we stay paying reg value for nothing!

everythings, Downhill must be more selective, and give new tactical options in game....AND WE WAIT STERRATO!

auxilium torino · Post by **auxilium torino** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:03 pm

in Asolo ( giro 2010 stage 14) Nibali win 46 second in downhill (against two riders, Basso don't helped), but after lost only 22 seconds in 15 km., 2 minutes against Sastre.
downhill was a really simple, not an hard like the Crostis.

Radunion · Post by **Radunion** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:14 pm

Splitting the field in the downhill would be interesting. But I agree with Roby, that it cannot work the same way as uphill, or it would be used in every sprint race with 1 km downhill. This makes it very difficult to implement a system where only a couple of riders fall behind.

One possibility is to make it very easy to split the field with a strong downhill rider but limit the group size of the front group to 10 or 15 riders (or 1/3 of the group when the group is small). If there is a rider in red tempo he splits the group and just riders with 2 to 4 downhill points less get with him in the first group, with an advantage of just 2 or 3 seconds. Riders that help weaker riders will not be in the new group. Is the resulting group bigger than the allowed number of riders (10 - 15) nothing happens. A rider that helps another rider with lower downhill skill will not split the group, but he will go slower as he protects his captain.

auxilium torino · Post by **auxilium torino** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:31 pm

Radunion wrote: A rider that helps another rider with lower downhill skill will not split the group, but he will go slower as he protects his captain.

in mountain have you a split too, if the riders that pull the gruop help a captain with low skill!
The must be the same in downhill!

Zentaron · Post by **Zentaron** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:35 pm

Stop talking about making RSF more selective, it's much too much selective right now.

auxilium torino · Post by **auxilium torino** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:01 pm

i don't want general more selection..i will less selection chance for mountain , and more for downhill...

Radunion · Post by **Radunion** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:33 pm

auxilium torino wrote: in mountain have you a split too, if the riders that pull the gruop help a captain with low skill!
The must be the same in downhill!

If you make the split to easy we will have not only hillsprinter but also downhillsprinter. Create one downhill monster (90 + downhill) to split on at -6 or -7 and 2 flat monsters with downhill and your sprinter (with downhill) and you will have an advantage in many races. A 70-70-90 looks interesting even in the current system - maybe I should create such a rider.

A little bit more serious. In real cycling splits in the uphill are fundamentally different from those in the downhill. In the uphill small groups or single riders fall of the back of the group. In the downhill a rider goes a tempo that only a small number of riders can follow (is willing to follow). In the system I proposed it makes little difference whether a rider is in the front group and drops back or stays with his captain (a split is initially only 2 or 3 seconds), but it is a big problem as I want to control the group size. If half of the riders in the group immediately wait for there captain the groups it will be much more difficult to create a group small enough to be allowed to split.

NoPikouze · Post by **NoPikouze** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:16 pm

Impossible discussion.

RSF is 100% large straight roads. No turns, no small parts, etc...
Moreover, there is no positionning in the peloton.

A downhill split would take place on a difficult road, with a very high tempo, at the position of a very bad downhiller. For example, IF a fit 80 downhiller tempoes red, and IF the road is small or curvy, AND IF there is a 45 downhiller in the middle of the peloton, there can be a split.

Any other option would result in an automatic sieb, which is not realistic for a penny.

So, until there is a major change of the game (which I am not asking for by this post), I don't think there can be a good solution.

Kindest regards,

God.

Radunion · Post by **Radunion** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:02 am

I think NoPikouze is right. Splits in the downhill follows similar rules as splits in the flat (crosswind). Position is a very important factor. To implement this in RSF there must be a system dealing with the position in the pelOton. An alternative could be to rely on a random factor (modelling the position) perhaps in connection with a very simple system where you can order your rider to stay in the front of the pelOton.

auxilium torino · Post by **auxilium torino** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:47 pm

after this, i must think that split in mountain/pave must be have for 1 km. or low uphill the same rule...in a 5 or 6 % wie have effects that are long away to the real, and are ever the same, but nobody hurts, if i win , is not my problem...
downhill effects with a little change is howewer, a little more, that can make race intresting and open, and a little bit real...
i don't say that ever -5% must give a split, but i say that in moment is unreal, race will not be decide from the best riders against(like in real), but from helper.

I say only this
if you have the better descent rider, maybe an 79, against an 59, if you want take precious seconds must attack, and in this game you lost very important energie
in real take you good second ever km. maybe not much, but enough that the chaser must work in flat after, and lose energie...

at last, the waste of energie in downhill is in moment not right!
Descent have another faktor: in RSF,you can load your energie...is not really real that tha 79 lose the energie, while work, and the 59 load, while in real must work much more, while must be careful to follow the best rider.

in downhill(right downhill, not -4%), if you look race, give no peloton...all the group get splited to the end, helper effects is 0, the work is the same for all.

but ok, we are in RSF, we must let the big mountain stars without downhill value, charging energie , while the best lost this

is this real? NO
we must change it , not big change, but little.
at last, the waste of energie in downhill is in moment not right!

Pirkio · Post by **Pirkio** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:09 pm

moments, you say all quite good..

In downhill my riders recover 50 - 100 energy every time, so in peloton there is no energy problem..

but of course.. attack in red in downhill cost a lot and make you take 5 seconds, km after 2 km after you're in peloton again with 120 energy lost.. that's the problem

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