Division Resizing

[Hansa]

Soo Division Resized great very good.

A bit strange for some teams the resizing process but still fine in my opinion.

Will be back to normal in the next months i guess so everything good.

relegation:

3-4-5-6-7 in Div 1-2-3-4-5

feels a bit low in numbers for me espacially we had 33% relegation from div 1 before (10/30) now we only have 19% (3/16)

makes it pretty easy to stay in division 1 if you are there once even if you have a bad month.

In my opinion 5/16 teams relegating would sound nicer would make it a bit harder to stay in Div 1 and it would be around the same percentage of relegation as before.

so

5-6-7-8-9 in Div 1-2-3-4-5 would be my proposal

that would mean for

Div 1:
5 relegate
11 staying
Div 2:
5 promote
6 relegate
7 staying
Div 3:
6 promote
7 relegate
7 staying
Div 4:
7 promote
8 relegate
7 staying
Div 5:
8 promote
9 relegate
7 staying

For Div 5 i would also like to have implemented that you only can relegate if there is a team promoting from Div 6 so if only like currently only 5 Teams have points in Div 6 only these 5 promote and then only 5 teams from Div 5 would relegate or in the actual case with less than 24 teams in Div 5 nobody would relegate (except for the automatic relegation of inactive teams.

[flockmastoR]

This has two sides:

1) It makes it easier to stay in Division 1, well not exactly. You need to be in the top 13 of Division 1 to stay, in the old system with 30 teams you needed to be in the top 20 to stay. Additionally, no cannon fodder from Division 2 will join the Division 1 in the future with just 3 spots there.
2) It makes it harder to get into Division 1, which IMO is a good thing. Earlier you came into Division 1 with a quite average season, when you had the same season in the next month you went back to Division 2 without any chance. IMO this elevator teams (don't know if thats a term) may be the exception but not the rule. You should end up in a Division that reflects the strenght of the team rather then going up and down too easily. Of course this needs to be balanced, permeability is important to motivate the teams in lower divisions.

All in all I think the fight to get/stay in division 1 will get harder. If 5/16 relegate you always need to be in the top 11 to stay there. I can hardly imagine that that would be easy.

Just looking at my stats from the point where I first entered Division 1 after my Comeback:
12-2020 Div2, place 2 (promote to Division 1)
01-2021 Div1, place 21 (relegate to Division 2)
02-2021 Div2, place 3 (promote to Division 1)
03-2021 Div 1, place 17
04-2021 Div 1, place 21 (relegate to Division 2)
05-2021 Div2, place 3 (promote to Division 1) <----Until here elevator team
06-2021, place 11
07-2021, place 9
08-2021, place 6
09-2021, place 10
10-2021, place 12
11-2021, place 10
12-2021, place 2
01-2022, place 1
02-2022, place 1
03-2022, place 1
04-2022, place 2
05-2022, place 1
06-2022, place 3
07-2022, place 28 relegate to Div2
08-2022, place 5 promote to Div1
09-2022, place 12
10-2022, place 10
11-2022, place 14
12-2022, place 5
01-2023, place 3
02-2023, place 4
03-2023, place 5
04-2023, place 4
05-2023, place 1
06-2023, place 4
07-2023, place 14
08-2023, place 12
09-2023, place 5
10-2023, place 6

So while it was pretty easy to stay in Division 1 in the past, it will become way harder with the smaller Division, your proposal is a bit extrem. It demands 5/16 which is a higher percantage of a half as big Division. 3 is ok, 4 could be an option as well. 5 is way too many imo

[Gipfelstuermer]

Earlier you came into Division 1 with a quite average season, when you had the same season in the next month you went back to Division 2 without any chance. IMO this elevator teams (don't know if thats a term) may be the exception but not the rule.

Yep we had these elevator teams and that's why the percentage of promotion/relegation ranks has been reduced a bit.

From a technological point of view, it can now be changed easily (if after a while it seems way too difficult to move through divisions... but yes, the idea was to make it a bit more difficult, so it will take time to get used to it.)

[Robyklebt]

3 IMO is ok, expected 4 which would have been ok too, 5 would be too many.
For me the divisions as they are right now work.
Easy to change now, but I hope we're not changing monthly, depending on how many active players there are.
The names are stupid. If anything make it Buhvision-Big Buddha of c4f Division (or lesovision).. but I like Division 1. etc. But ok, unimportant.

Edit:
Inactive teams, 0 points and 0 races directly down to D6 is still not a good idea. You earn your way up, now hard, then you're off 1 month, sell the riders with points and you're back down at the bottom even if you after this month off you ride again. ? Don't expect it will happen often, but in the long future history of c4f at some point it will happen.
Normally it takes 2 months, yes, one month not riding you still have points. So it will happen to teams like Lorient, stop at the top. Down to D2, then D5. But much better if it takes them 5 months to D6, not just 2. Looking into the game after 3 months, still in D3, see a nice guy on the market, get motivated again, better chance to keep them in the game with a slow down I think (of course there's the weirdos a la Manghi who think the D6 market is so much cooler who would prefer going down fast)

[Alkworld]

Now with the cleaned up divisions, proper relegation and the ability to resize, I also think that there doesn't need to be auto-relegation. However, I would go for slightly higher number of promotions and relegations, as those two go practically hand in hand: automatic relegation of inactive practically increases teams being promoted, so if we take away the relegation due to inactivity, we should raise the regular promotions / relegations a little, e.g. 4-5-6-7-8.

[flockmastoR]

Now with the cleaned up divisions, proper relegation and the ability to resize, I also think that there doesn't need to be auto-relegation. However, I would go for slightly higher number of promotions and relegations, as those two go practically hand in hand: automatic relegation of inactive practically increases teams being promoted, so if we take away the relegation due to inactivity, we should raise the regular promotions / relegations a little, e.g. 4-5-6-7-8.

But this auto-relegation for inactive teams is "just" by one division?! Or directly to "The Rest" as the Donkey post indicates?

[Alkworld]

Now with the cleaned up divisions, proper relegation and the ability to resize, I also think that there doesn't need to be auto-relegation. However, I would go for slightly higher number of promotions and relegations, as those two go practically hand in hand: automatic relegation of inactive practically increases teams being promoted, so if we take away the relegation due to inactivity, we should raise the regular promotions / relegations a little, e.g. 4-5-6-7-8.

But this auto-relegation for inactive teams is "just" by one division?! Or directly to "The Rest" as the Donkey post indicates?

Directly to "The Rest" currently. The cleanup would have taken quite long otherwise.

[Alkworld]

We now have a slightly growing number of teams (currently around 90 teams riding a race each day during the Tour de France) and division sizes can be adjusted easily. How about doing that now? E.g. increasing the size of Div 1 to 5 by 2 or 3 each? Or adding an additional division again?

[schappy]

And we downsizing in Winter again?

In my eyes its not important to adjust here. Better wait to see if its really necessary.

[Radunion]

Keeping active teams in "The Rest" was never the system's intention with all the consequences on the transfer market this would bring. I would suggest adding another Div. As we relegate inactive teams automatically to the Rest, the worst thing that could happen is an empty Div 6.

[Chemnitz Pro Cycling Team]

Keeping active teams in "The Rest" was never the system's intention with all the consequences on the transfer market this would bring. I would suggest adding another Div. As we relegate inactive teams automatically to the Rest, the worst thing that could happen is an empty Div 6.

+1

[Robyklebt]

I'm rather for +2 or so in each division.

But can wait a bit too, because the winter down will come I suspect... see how it's in November and then act or so.

Right now 25 teams that have points and over 1500 eternal points in "the Rest", so teams that would qualify for promotion.
The question is how many of those rode in June too? July might not be the ideal month to look at the development, maybe better to wait for August at least and act then for September.

[Radunion]

I thought about the division thing again and suggest a solution that does not require any further tinkering. starting with div 2 60 % of the teams should stay and the division (at the moment the percentage of teams staying in the div decreased for lower divs) and one more is relegated than promoted (as we already do). In the Rooky div, there is no need for promotion places, all teams with at least 1 race (or whatever is the criterium now?) and 1500 eternal points are promoted, even if that leaves them alone in the lowest div. In practice, this means:

div 1: stay with 16 or whatever you like (3 relegations)
div 2: 18 teams (3 promoted, 4 relegated)
div 3: 23 teams (4 promoted, 5 relegated)
div 4: 28 teams (5 promoted, 6 relegated)
div 5: 33 teams (6 promoted, 7 relegated)
further divs are created automatically increasing in size by 5 and adding 1 promotion and relegation spot.

There is no relegation into the Rooky div, but inactive teams and teams after a reset are transferred there (as we already do).

I think this is a better solution than tinkering manually with division size and it keeps the Rooky division as intended for new and inactive teams.

[Radunion]

To push this topic, we have 29 active teams with more than 1500 points in div 6.

[Robyklebt]

Not sure how you count that exactly, I came to a lower number.

As for the previous post, I think you make a bit a mess of what the rookie division is now.

Old system: D1-5. Then D6. Then D7a: new teams until they get eternal 1500 points D7b: Inactive teams

In the react version D7a and b have been abolished and are integrated in D6. So

all teams with at least 1 race (or whatever is the criterium now?) and 1500 eternal points are promoted

isn't the case anymore. That used to be the case for D7b and D7a respectively.

Now inactive teams are in D6 already, so no promotion, fight for promotion from D6 like everybody else, while new teams become eligible for promotion once they have 1500 eternal points, before that even if they are in a promotion spot they don't go up.

[Radunion]

As for the previous post, I think you make a bit a mess of what the rookie division is now.

In this case we should discuss it. In my view the main point is the transfer market. I thought the plan behind the split is that active teams over 1500 points are in the auction market while new teams, returning teams and teams after a reset are in the separate market. In this market it is easier to form a decent team, but you are unable to buy top talents.

Not sure how you count that exactly, I came to a lower number.

My number is probably wrong as it was a quick count and can change with every transfer.

[Robyklebt]

For November a slight increase probably could be done. +2 in every division IMO still the better solution then what others proposed. Even if there is a the risk of a decrease once the off season starts, so wait and see what happens in November and then do it for December probably works too.

[Robyklebt]

Ok, to me looks like we have the numbers even in the beginning of the offseason o slightly increase the teams in D1-5 again.

If then you do it in the Radunion or others way or just +2 (or x) per Division can be discussed, but think for December an increase should be there.

Also rename the lowest division, rookies below amateurs? Ok, Rookie seems to have different meanings, but the one usually used in sports is a first year professional. Which is above an amateur. Just call it the Wurstdivision. Or sausage, to stay English. Or to motivate them "Division der Fürsten". Or choose from here https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rookie
Abecedarian sounds nice. Hm, after clicking on it, has to do with the alphabet, ha... another post I was looking for, the one from January 23 or so by Quick asking for alphabetical ordering by family name everywhere. If anybody knows where to find that, point me in the direction.

Anyway, first part more important, the rookies can be beginners too of course. Or a punk. (Does merriam webster know what synonyms are?)

[team fl]

I think the Fürstenliga is the Division I am in always, no?

[rsv flaschbier]

Sure! By default.
And I'm in Flaschenliga.

[Alkworld]

I agree with the change of sizes.
Should we keep the number of promotions / relegations? Or may add 1 each way?

[ATB - Racing]

i would say +1 / +1 for relegations and promotions sounds good.

[Hansa]

I agree with the change of sizes.
Should we keep the number of promotions / relegations? Or may add 1 each way?

so how will the size increse more promotions everywhere or less relegation? May p14 stay in Div 1 with the size increase or still go down this month?(asking for a friend)

[Radunion]

I am not in favor of increasing promotion spots. At the moment, the teams on the last promotion spot will all be in the lower half of the next div, often fighting relegation. It should be a fight to go up the divisions.

[Alkworld]

As I need to change the division sizes now (considering the month change Saturday night), I'll go for +2 in Div 1 to 5, and +1 relegation from each division. Then the ratio of size to promotions is the similar as before, i.e. 18 teams / 4 relegations, 20 teams / 5 relegations, etc.