way harder offline rules needed (call it the Viro case - NOT for harrasment)

[ATB - Racing]

heya,

The offline rule states that you will be kicked in one-day races if you are offline for more than 60% of the race.
Either I don't understand the rule or it doesn't work.
Short example: Team Viromet - Race: Scarborough-Newcastle upon Tyne
Start Time: 22:00 CET

I looked in from time to time and checked the online status, he was almost never online. From km 165 he was. If you want me to prove this with screenshots, I'm happy to do so.
At the end of the race, he was about 75% offline or, to put it another way, 25% online.
That's simply disastrous. I'm referring to the rule that allows such a way of playing.

Until then he was offline for about 150 km. That's a long way from 60%.
On the other hand, if the 60% rule says that you can't be offline for more than 60% of the time, then that's a bit rubbish, to say the least.

Then you could just come online at km 59 in a 100km race and be sure not to get kicked out. Then quickly set sprint and attack and off you go.
If you want to do it that way, you should probably play a manager game.
In my eyes, the game thrives on interaction.

Idea / suggestion:
Anyone who is offline for more than 30% at a time flies, anyone who is offline for more than 40% in total flies.




deutsch:

Die Offline Regel besagt, dass man bei Eintagesrennen gekicked wird wenn man mehr als 60 % des Rennens offline ist.
Entweder verstehe ich die Regel nicht oder sie funktioniert nicht.
Kurzes Beispiel: Team Viromet - Race: Scarborough-Newcastle upon Tyne
Start Time: 22:00 CET

Ich habe ab und an reingeschaut und den online Status gechecked, er war quasi nie online. Ab km 165 dann schon. Wenn ich das mit Screenshots belegen soll, kann ich das gerne tun.
Er war am Ende des Rennens ca. 75% offline oder anders herum gesagt 25% online.
Das ist halt einfach desaströs. Also ich meine damit die Regel, die solch eine Spielweise zulässt.

Bis dahin war er ca. 150 km offline. Das ist sehr weit weg von 60%.
Wenn die 60% Regel hingegen besagt, dass man nicht mehr als 60% am Stück offline sein darf ist die Regel gelinde gesagt fürn Poppes.

Dann könnte man ja einfach bei nem 100km Rennen bei km 59 online kommen und würde sicher gehen nicht rauszufliegen. Dann noch schnell Sprint und Attacke eingestellt und aus die Maus.
Wenn man das so machen will, sollte man eventuell aber eher nen Manager Spiel spielen.
In meinen Augen lebt das Spiel von Interaktion.

Idee / Vorschlag:
Wer länger als 30% am Stück offline ist fliegt, wer in Summe mehr als 40% offline ist fliegt.

spectators "chat"

ATB - Racing(00:00): Windschatten .... 30% power safing
ATB - Racing(00:00): das Wahnsinn, er war heute knapp 75%! offline
Rhodan Underdogs(23:59): stärkere Nachteile für offline wäre eine gute Sache
ATB - Racing(23:56): haha again he get a win and a lot of help by others and is still pissed
ATB - Racing(23:55): @stevens, i also like rhetorical questions
ATB - Racing(23:55): thanks viro, wanted to open that topic looooong time ago, but with your fpc thread you gave me the extra push i needed! great
stevens(23:54): Never
stevens(23:54): Quick question: would he have helped dreizhn if he'd had the 82-72 and dreizhn the 78-81?
ATB - Racing(23:46): attack the guy who worked all stage for you would be extra classy!
ATB - Racing(23:46): attack the guy who worked all stage for you would be extra classy!
ATB - Racing(23:44): so 150 / 189 offline. sounds legit to me as we call it an ONLINE game!
ATB - Racing(23:30): roundabout offline for 150 km until km 165
ATB - Racing(23:23): 162: Team Viromet(31)
ATB - Racing(23:16): just for info: need it for a thread for harder offline rules
ATB - Racing(23:16): km 152: Team Viromet(21)
ATB - Racing(23:03): km 127: Team Viromet(45)
ATB - Racing(22:53): right now at least 70 / 105km offline
ATB - Racing(22:52): km 105: Team Viromet(23)
ATB - Racing(22:28): Team Viromet(19) + was offline before for about 30 km. Km 57
ATB - Racing(22:22): Dreizehn missed to write that he expects help from rfm and ... OF COURSE! (Anfängerfehler)

[schappy]

Erstmal allgemein finde ich deine Fixierung auf ein Team hier nicht gut und nur deswegen eine Regel anpassen zu wollen, ist irgendwie kritisch.

Zum Thema:
Wir haben das Thema schon oft gehabt und ich gehe davon aus, dass sehr viele teilnahmen von Spielern an Rennen dann nicht mehr möglich wäre. Wir haben vermutlich alle ein echtes Leben und nutzen das Spiel als freudiges Hobby zum ablenken. Wenn es kein Flachrennen ist, hat man durch Offline sein schon genug Nachteile. 30% Offline kann bei manchen Rennen schon 20 Minuten sein. Das passiert vermutlich die hälfte aller Leute regelmäßig.
Ich bin also gegen eine Anpassung der Regel aus den genannten Gründen.

[Chense]

I am absolutely not with schappy here who says the rule is quite good as it is...

Indeed i would even like a much harder rule but as a compromise just some suggestion for not directly kicking out anyone.

Even i see the problem more or less as the following: If you just change the rules to 30, 40, 50% those notorious offliners will take a look after those % instead of the actual rule and dont change anything else in their behaviour ... so i have the following suggestion (even if it might me hard for newcomers ... something we also have to think about!)

I would a difference between km off in a row and total km:

Off in a row:
- 20% = Helper settings out
- 30% = All other settings out and helper settings cant be reset until 50% of the remaining race or the next 10km - the lesser amount counts - tempo / attack excluded
- 40% = All settings out and cant be reset until 50% of the remaining race or 10km - the lesser amount count - tempo / attack excluded
- 50% = Kick

Off in total:
- 40% = All helper settings out
- 55% = All settings out and for the next 10km or 50% of the remaining race you cant set anything except tempo / attack
70% = Kick

Introduce a "offline" mode - for 25% of the stages in a stage race you can set an offline mode there those rules will not apply but you will be see that someone is in that mode and any login will directly stop it and the rules above apply again

[Chemnitz Pro Cycling Team]

I am absolutely not with schappy here who says the rule is quite good as it is...

Indeed i would even like a much harder rule but as a compromise just some suggestion for not directly kicking out anyone.

Even i see the problem more or less as the following: If you just change the rules to 30, 40, 50% those notorious offliners will take a look after those % instead of the actual rule and dont change anything else in their behaviour ... so i have the following suggestion (even if it might me hard for newcomers ... something we also have to think about!)

I would a difference between km off in a row and total km:

Off in a row:
- 20% = Helper settings out
- 30% = All other settings out and helper settings cant be reset until 50% of the remaining race or the next 10km - the lesser amount counts - tempo / attack excluded
- 40% = All settings out and cant be reset until 50% of the remaining race or 10km - the lesser amount count - tempo / attack excluded
- 50% = Kick

Off in total:
- 40% = All helper settings out
- 55% = All settings out and for the next 10km or 50% of the remaining race you cant set anything except tempo / attack
70% = Kick

Introduce a "offline" mode - for 25% of the stages in a stage race you can set an offline mode there those rules will not apply but you will be see that someone is in that mode and any login will directly stop it and the rules above apply again

I like this idea.

[Quick]

I'm against making a game, which needs like 2h a day, more inaccessible for players who can't or also don't have the need to be here for 2h straight. It's a disadvantage no matter what.

Actually, maybe I'd be for it, if we have more players. But we don't.

[Carry Rhodan]

Chenses proposal is good!

I'm in favor of tightening up the offline rules, currently lax rules are simply being exploited by some teams.

In reality it is not possible to be offline, but here you can be offline for 90% of the race and then even win the race. Why?

I don't find Quick's objection a convincing argument at all.
It's not at all necessary to race every day, I don't do that either. You might have less income, that's all.
If you really don't have time, then just skip a race.
Tightening up the rules doesn't mean that you have to be online all the time.
it is about ensuring that the rules are not abused any further

[team fl]

In general, I don't like the idea of making it harder for everyone because of a few bad examples. But, one way to go could be to seperate the discussion for stage races and one day races:

Stage races: I think decent offline rules help a lot for stage races. Being online 4 to 21 days in a row (not incl. rest days...) at the same time is difficult for most human being. Not for the real freaks here, but for most. They may still be adapted a bit, but in general I am pro offline rules for stage races similar to the ones we have: You need to be online on a certain amount of stages, for a certain amount if time.

One day races: When you sign up for a one day race, you sign up willingly for a race on a particular day at a particular time. So it can be exptected for a player to be online, at least most of the race. There may always be some little things to keep you away from being online for a little while (toilet, smoking break, little children, annying co-workers, etc.), but in general, most of the race, a player should be online. The question now is: what is the right amount of time you should be online without too strict rules for cases such as listed in the brackets?

And make no mistake: No matter what the rules are, some players (very few) will exploit them. So the real question is, again: What is the equilibrium not to hurt the players that are usually online but have to be offline accidentally / surpringly for a while in a race but sanction teams that tend to exploit offline times (and hence harm the gaming experience)? Here, I agree with Schappy and r Quick, that (way) harder offline rules may hurt the game more than they help.

And:The fairplay votes are exactly for such cases (make objective and comprehensible comments!). Check the teams before the race. If the "favourite" tends to be offline in most of the races, adapt your tactics accordingly. Rule of thumb is: Most notorious offline teams don't win very often... (and have less fun playing the game!)

[High Flyer]

My first post in 3 years
Even though the current rules do allow for some annoying riding habits, I think you (teams that are much more active and involved in the games) have to be very careful. Changes like 20% helpers setting off and off in total for one day races won't drive off players on the day of implementation, but will definitely drive players numbers down as an overall. Most one day races don't need people online that often, especially once the break has gone and you aren't the favourite to chase. I do agree with maybe increasing the 60% off in a row to 50% instead.

On another note, I think its worth remembering that the amount of teams that actually abuse the offline system are probably in the single digits and hardly affect most player in most races, and event then, as stated by others, changing offline setting isn't going to suddenly make sucking offline teams start riding or being active, they'll just do the same sucking they did before, but with shorter breaks between offlines. I really wouldn't make such drastic changes to offline rules just for them. Because this honestly feels like a complaint about sucking more than a complaint about the offline rules.

[Pokemon Club]

Harder offline rules aren't needed. There are teams in your field, on or off setting and way they ride can be absolutely the same. I am more against teams that target only one team to follow and that is all. So why not doing something like "you can follow only one rider of one team at the same time" ?

[Pokemon Club]

Harder offline rules aren't needed. There are teams in your field, on or off setting and way they ride can be absolutely the same. I am more against teams that target only one team to follow and that is all. So why not doing something like "you can follow only one rider of one team at the same time" ?

[Radunion]

There could be a case for a moderate rules change, but some suggestions, e. g. Chense's, are far too restrictive. It could hit teams that are fair, but have no interest in being online all the time if they missed the group and have no intention to ride against it.

Much is policed by the managers themselves. Do not ride for notorious offline teams.

[Carry Rhodan]

A moderate change is better than nothing at all. Because the way it is now is not satisfactory at all and has nothing to do with cycling.

[team fl]

A moderate change is better than nothing at all. Because the way it is now is not satisfactory at all and has nothing to do with cycling.

What are you referring to exactly? Can you elaborate it a bit more? F.e. with examples, numbers, etc.

The reason for my questions is: I dont feel this way at all. So I wonder where it is coming from. It seems subjective to me. But maybe I am wrong and hard fact will show the picture clearer.

[Chense]

There could be a case for a moderate rules change, but some suggestions, e. g. Chense's, are far too restrictive. It could hit teams that are fair, but have no interest in being online all the time if they missed the group and have no intention to ride against it.

Much is policed by the managers themselves. Do not ride for notorious offline teams.

Well yes after thinking it over again and again my proposal was maybe to hard especially for stage races.

I also think there are few teams abusing the system but those few teams may also cost other players or at least make others trying to avoid them.

Anyway there are 2 ways to cope with that problem (if it is a problem):

- Do it technically like with some things like proposed by me above ... make them lose races with their style because of not beeing able to react (and thats somehow also what they do to others ...)
- Do it manually by punishing them in terms of fairplay violation (and yes playing a online game not only repeatedly but all the time is some kind of fairplay violation to me)

[flockmastoR]

I would like to discuss the following: for one day races:
offline and following: following will be cancelled after x km of being offline
offline and sprinting: sprint settings will be cancelled after x km of being offline

I think the first one can really help against hanging of offline Teams in the deciding phase of the race. The latter one would make it easier to know if a team will participate in the sprint.

For the other stuff. I don't really like the ideas because it makes it harder for some teams to participate while it doesn't really make it more complicated for those who want to exploit the "being offline" tactics

[Chense]

Okay i overthought it and now i want to make it overcomplicated ... why not use something totally different and use terms of power?

1) What do i think of?

I think of a system that makes beeing offline for longer parts of the race costly in terms of power. So beeing offline xx% costs you xx% power.
BUT dont make beeing offline a little very costly:
- You should get a free amount of offline km before loosing power and some of this power should be regained back when online
- The lost power will be calculated 100% for sprinting and following, 50% for tempo

In short i want to invent a system that does the following things:
- Make notorious offliners at least be online that long, that everybody can adapt his tactics
- Make less notorious offliners at least think when they should go to shower, dinner etc.
- If a team decides to be offline in stage races - at least punish him a little for the following day if he overdoes the offline thing
- beeing offline the hole stage in a tour might ruin your stage but not your tour

2) How much do we want to allow teams to be offline on "boring" races?

I still guess that there must be a difference between one day races and tours. Also there has to be a difference between just having some disadvantage for beeing offline (meaning you have to be more active after)

- One Day Races:
You apply for a race that will cost you 2 hours - so i think you should be online a big amount of the race ... as still some think i am thinking to hard lets say Penalty from beeing offline:

Consecutive: 30%
In Total: 50%

Penalty that hard that you cant get back to the original power for beeing offline:

Consecutive: 50%
In Total: 70%

- Stage Races: Here its clearly understandable that some team wants to be off for some stages BUT i also think even on a flat stage while TDF its not that hard to be online at least at some maybe deciding points to look after your team ... so here I would suggest to start that way for penalty this way:

Consecutive: 50%
In Total: 70%

Penalty that hard that you cant get back to the original power for beeing offline:

Consecutive: 70%
In Total: 90%

3) Calculation of power loss:

The penalty will be calculated for every 10% of the race starting from the values above

For both calculations it will be the same formula but the "in Total" rule comes before the "Consecutive" Rule.
Example (for one day races):
a) You are 40% off consecutive and 45% in total: no penalty
b) You are 45% off consecutive and 45% in total: penalty for 40%
c) you are 50% off consecutive and 80% in total: penalty for 80%

3)a) The formula for loosing power

P = the factor for beeing offline in %/100 so 30% offline means P = 0,3

The formula is that easy that even i do not understand it so i will just present it:
Power loss = (10 * (1+P-0,2)) * (1^(P-0,2))

Oh and the powerlosses add up ... so its not i loose x power for 30% offline and go then to y power for 40% offline but its x + y see beyond:

That means you loose for beeing offline:
30% = 14,0
40% = 19,7
50% = 28,0
60% = 40,2
70% = 58,1
80% = 84,5
90% = 123,5
100% = 181,8

Means e.g. after beeing 50% consecutive offline you will have lost 61,7 power (for all your riders)

But: You can also regain it see 4)

4) Regaining power
Beeing offline for some time should not make you loose the race but it should make you at least think when you decide to be offline ... therefor you can also regain some power you lost ... and for only hitting the lowest criteria you should get it nearly immediately back while beeing offline very long should make you suffer ... so:

4)a) The formula for regaining power:

R = the factor for beeing offline in %/100 so 30% offline means P = 0,3
S = the factor for beeing offline in %/100 so 25% online means S = 0,025

Power regain / km online = Power/100 * (1 + S - (R/10)) ^ (1 + S -(R/10))

Means e.g. (if the rider was on 1000 before penalty started):

30% Offline:
0km: 986
1km: 995
2 km: 1000

50% Offline:
0 km = 938
1km = 946
2km = 954
3km = 963
4km = 967
5km = 976
6km = 986
7km = 988
8km = 998
9km = 1000

80% Offline:
0 km = 755
1km = 761
2km = 767
3km = 771
4km = 778
5km = 785
6km = 792
7km = 800
8km = 808
9km = 816
10km = 824
11km = 833
12km = 842
13km = 851
14km = 861
15km = 871
16km = 882
17km = 893
18km = 905
19km = 917
20km = 930
21km = 943
22km = 957
23km = 972
24km = 988
2km = 1000

[schappy]

Thats sounds very complicate and you have to implement this in the code. And 30% offline in short stages is reached very fast only with a half long visit on the toilet.

For me is okay if we chance ist to 40% offline and for tours 40% of the stages you are out. So everybody can be in grand tours ne week in holiday without kicked out. and if you are 40$ of a race not online, its over for you. This 60% rule is very hard to reach with for example 21 stages in the tour within 2 TT. So from 19 stages you only have to be online in 8 Stages. Thats very less. With the 40% rule it is 11 stages to be online.

[cataracs]

Changing the rules will have little impact on the main problem. The real problem isn't being offline, it's the TEMPO BUTTON.
Those teams can still be online but won't ride anyway so, make rules for sucking, improve the game by making people want to make more tempo.