Nations committee producing pure ugliness

[Luna]

It really unnerves to see the nations committee trying to rip off as much nationalities as possible, what has the result of having ugly void spaces where usually the nations flag of a rider should appear, even when they have names that doesn't sound completely stupid. I don't want that.

This is no scientific elite forum. This is only a game!

1. I demand the liquidation of the committee! or at least a severe re-shuffle!

Furthermore, those riders who really doesn't deserve a flag (because they are called "sdklfh", "sfhp" or "oghjRhh") still aren't deleted from the game, so that even when they lose their flag they continue to spread ugliness to the game.
Result: Those who don't care buy strong riders with ugly names, while those who have a sense of beauty avoid those riders and are thus disadvataged just because of their esthetical demand.

2. I demand deletion of riders without a flag after beeing sold!

[claw]

so its the comitees fault some users are not able to give realistic names to their riders or just prove them with some dubious sites?

[team fl]

you're avoiding the problem with counterquestions and not taking Luna's arguments into account.

Luna writes:

It really unnerves to see the nations committee trying to rip off as much nationalities as possible, what has the result of having ugly void spaces where usually the nations flag of a rider should appear, even when they have names that doesn't sound completely stupid

Furthermore, those riders who really doesn't deserve a flag (because they are called "sdklfh", "sfhp" or "oghjRhh")

He just says, that the rules for taking away the nationality should be lowered and nationaless riders should be deleted when sold.

And because he thinks - at least I read it that way - that the current comitee members are not the right persons to fulfil this task, especiall the first one, he has his demands.



All I have to say is that I also think that the current comitee is not working well and acts too strictly. Besides the fact that it is voluntary and some users do not act properly too.

[Robyklebt]

The committee should stay.

When it was first created the command structure was as follows:

1 Buhmann.
2 A boss (me at the time) who can decide who is in the committee. And who can make the rules up to a certain point of course. If a majority of the users don't like these rules, the logic conclusion would be to kick the committee boss, unless he adjusts his rules a bit. But it's his responsibility to make the rules, and make them clear, clarifiy them to members if necessary. nd he is responsible for what the other members do as well, he gives them the job, he tells them what to do, he clarifies the rules
3 normal members.

Now, that command structure has completely broken down. The boss, Hansa is AWOL since months. He isn't active in the forum, at leat not in the relevant threads. X users, Pezant, Aix, MiSa have offered to help, no answer. You have to send him a PN, then tell him to read it if you meet him in the race. Questions about policy? Nobody knows, since he can't be found there.

So yes, a re shuffle is necessary. And that means: Hansa has to go. NOW. He stays, we have a group that has no defined rules (and they can be defined loosely) the normal user doesn't know who to talk too, since the few members that do communicate don't always agree with each other either. See Ahab who resigned, then changed his mind, but he answered, then was overvoted inside the committee again (and it just needs a veto) And nobody there to explain what happened with authority. Hansa not there. IN those cases it would be Hansas job to back one side, not necesserily publicly diss member a or b, better not, but say, ok it's this, because my rule is this. He continues like that, and it's clear that he plans to (and honestly, even if he know shows up and says he'll be more active, with his passiveness in the last months he should be fired anyway.), in the end it will be up to Buh again to make order. To set the rules, clarify everything. Because even though some of the members are doing an effort now, answering etc. without the rules, which of course they can't set on their own, they don't have the authority, it will all fall back to Buh. After long and endless discussions that will only further poison the atmosphere. Get a new boss, fire Hansa, let the new boss set clearer rules, give him the authority to make the members work the way he wants.

And that's where my problem with the committee right now comes from. No transparency at all, no rules whatsoever anymore, nobody really knows what's ok what's not.

The guys with no nationality deleted? Other topic, why not when they are sold? Well, right now, because at the moment every normal name risks losing his nationality too.

But a reshuffle of the committee? NOW. Kick Hansa, get a new boss (one of the committee members maybe) he then can hire, fire etc. in the committee and clarify the rules for us users.

[NoPikouze]

This problem should have been settled for months now, why does it have to take so much time ?

[claw]

you're avoiding the problem with counterquestions and not taking Luna's arguments into account.

Luna also wrote

I demand the liquidation of the committee! or at least a severe re-shuffle!

so im on point...
or do you also think its the legislator 's fault if someone does a crime?

and another thing - searching on any crappy page for names and using those as source.. seems much people here doesnt understand anything about internet and how it works.. also no fault by anyone of the committee

[auxilium torino]

ok, all the problem with a austarlian name...

make an example with a german name.

by comparison, what would you do if the name is:
Garmisch-partenkirchen Schmitt?
Berlin Franziskaner?
Rhein-Pfalz Schroeder?

[flockmastoR]

and another thing - searching on any crappy page for names and using those as source.. seems much people here doesnt understand anything about internet and how it works.. also no fault by anyone of the committee

well i think you dont really got the point yet

[Luna]

and another thing - searching on any crappy page for names and using those as source.. seems much people here doesnt understand anything about internet and how it works.. also no fault by anyone of the committee

it's the committees fault to demand scientific evidence

[claw]

and another thing - searching on any crappy page for names and using those as source.. seems much people here doesnt understand anything about internet and how it works.. also no fault by anyone of the committee

it's the committees fault to demand scientific evidence

seems you need those, otherwise anybody else would open a thread, not later than next NMs, and charge about a rider in a country where it should not be..

real problem seems to be: sometimes somebody is not happy with a decision of the committee, neither if they are pro (for example izmir übel) or contra a rider
dont think changing the members changes anything - could be solved by name-databases, which i dislike at most.. or would be solved by taking acceptable names
but seems no option..

last example in nc-thread were those pretended "aborigines-names"
what to do with them?
names dont sound realistic, no serious page for them.. giving them a nation anyway?
(but also not realistic, a team full of aboriginies? never saw just one in cycling-sports..)

but further: nms in australia - one of them winning - the manager of second-placed rider opens a thread, cause he doesnt want a "clone" winning a nm

endless chain of unhappy threadopener.. easy to push black peter to the comittee

[deuseburger]

i just HAVE to comment on that:

or do you also think its the legislator 's fault if someone does a crime?

A. Merkel im Zusammenhang mit der CDU Spendenaffaire auf die Frage ob nun die Parteienfinazierungsgesetze verschärft werden müssen wörtlich: "Nein, dann wäre es ja noch schwerer sich daran zu halten."

Beeing asked if the law for financing political parties should now be restricted (after some bribe scandal) A. Merkel answered: No, because than it would be even harder to act within the law."

but back to topic:

...would be solved by taking acceptable names

ähhh one simply cant do that, unless there is a consent or a definition on what an "acceptable name" is. and this consent / rule / definition is made public knowledge...

[flockmastoR]

last example in nc-thread were those pretended "aborigines-names"
what to do with them?
names dont sound realistic, no serious page for them.. giving them a nation anyway?
(but also not realistic, a team full of aboriginies? never saw just one in cycling-sports..)


endless chain of unhappy threadopener.. easy to push black peter to the comittee

Well thats the point? Why not having a team full of aborigines? Thats the fun of the game and if those names dont seem unreal let them go, its the same with all the cameroon riders igiagiogiatutumu or so, i love them they should stay. I myself always take names that are not the Mülers, Maiers or Grübers in Austria (they are so boring), A french Mandelbrot (okay jewish guy ok), German Schlömilch (yeah existet in the 18th century) or whatsoever. i think the aim of the comittee changed and with it a part of the fun of the game is gone

[flockmastoR]

why not introduce a name-databases?

But not first time, everybody gives a name to his rider, if it is totally crap anybody (dont know who? - the comittee maybe) gives that guy any of this names of any country (we will not cover all countries but maybe the main RSF counties by that) If someone gives bullshit names his problem, then he gets a German Huber, or an French Auge or whatever, that would maybe solve the problem with the very stupid names and clones. This manager also gets a massege to watch out the next time he gives a name to a rider.

Contra:
-) work to create such a database
-) costs time to rename those riders
-) with the comittee rules now it will be a disadvantage for those with fantasy, getting a Huber instead od a Hugendubel, because anbody thinks thats not a German name (should really also be for the real crap names)

Pro:
-) would tild those gesperrt C,B,A riders, clones (which the comittee thing now cannot do)
-) better looking lists everywhere

[team fl]

so im on point...
or do you also think its the legislator 's fault if someone does a crime?

This is comparing apples and oranges and only polemic

[Luna]

We have a team in the World Tour that consists solely of Basque riders (Euskaltel). There also was a team on lower level with only riders that have type 1 diabetes (Team Type 1). But Aborigines are not welcome? I Don't understand. And if those names are difficult to be confirmed via inernet, well be it so. I'm sure there isn't even any aborigine legislation about name giving. Same for many African countries. There is no database in the net with allowed Senegalese names. They do what they want there regarding to giving first names. Why then demanding any proof for a name like Kamugo or Chaka (both spontaneous fantasy creations of mine)`

Riders with "strange" names becoming national champion: You really think somebody would be pissed off with Natko Zrnic becoming Croation champion? That is no crap name. And it really fits to the country. There is a Natko Zrncic-Dim in RL? Well, then that's a different person. If you still have problems with distinguishing him from the famous Croation ski star (although there's a difference in the number of 'z', as well as with the second last name), then offer a different Balkan country. But don't treat him like "NuFahr SchonVoaran". That's something completely different.

Once upon a time the committee was installed for

a) ripping off the nationalities of riders like "FickDich DuArsch" or just "gesperrt b". Those are the bad guys, not "Zrnic" or any lovely fantasy name that maybe doesn't really occur in the real wide world.

b) moving "Heinz Müller" to Germany in case a manger has put him to South Korea.

nothing more. But you (the commiettee) overshot this by far in the meantime.

[Quick]

Agree with Luna. So please join the NK and help us finding back on the right way!

[Robyklebt]

Ah.. how...

There's Pezant, Aix, MiSa that tried... but unless you write Hansa a PN then tell him to read the PN in a race, it's kind of difficult..

You guys need a boss that is present in the forum.

[captain ahab]

ooops,haven't seen this fred yet...


well,beeing a member of the committee myself i cannot agree with all of lunas accusations(e.g. we cannot delete flagless riders with stupid names,because we simply don't have the power to do so),but i can agree with some off the things he pointed out(e.g. that some decisions of the nk are too strict...)

reshuffle can be a good idea(new structures,new motivated members,new definition...) but first we have to find out,what the rsf-community really wants the nation committee to do aka find out in the bigger discussion how realistic the names should be-right now,according to the question you are asked when you give the name to your new rider,the name has to be "realistic" and a should fit the nationality of choice

both things,beeing a realistic name and fitting a certain nationality have very wide ranges of interpretation...and while it is easy to sort out the riders called "prenome nome","hans 1" and "jhsjhfd aaoias", it starts to get difficult with "Emanuel Nerilianu" from cuba and "Matio Gorvin" from ukraina and gets stupid with "Hlifigger Tomans" from argentine(the last 3 beeing from the top of the actual nation committee list)

emanuel nerilianu sounds like a name,doesn't it...?
emanuel defenitly is a prename,nerilianu maby doesn't sound 100% cubano but why not? but if you see it strictly,and search for someone named nerilianu in the real world,you don't find anybody(at least with two engines-google and bing-i didn't find one nerilianu worldwide)...so what now...accept it,because it sounds like a name or make him a trottel?

...and if i accept nerilianu,don't i have to accept any other made-up name in future as long it does sound somewhat like a name-like,do i have to accept hilfigger tomans...?

and of course there should be no problem with a team of aborigenes here at rsf(even if in reality there are not too many aborigines pro cyclists),but don't expect us to know every possible abo-name...or should it be enough,if it just sounds like an abo name ? that all starts to get difficult at one point,believe me...

ok,what's my point...?

i think we possibly need an open discussion first about what we really want namewise...how realistic they really should be,and then ,when needed,set up new internal rules within the committee...

and yes,we could use some help within the committee,especially more french-speaking members(since that would make communication between the comitee and the francophone world much easier)

did i get forget something ?,possible...but thats my point for now...

[Luna]

Konfuzius sais: If you don't know what do, let him go through

[Robyklebt]

Ah, but you remember too that it's not always easy Luna. We had our guys who nobody wanted to touch since nobody knew what to do as well...

[Luna]

Of course I remember that. And after some very difficult types of names lingered for several weeks on the list I used to remember Konfuzius and clicked on "let pass". Most of the times it happened the same day that another committee member followed me and those names vanished from our list.

But it's not those difficult cases that rose this topic. It was because the actual nc exceeded its competences. It was a case of "User xy is a uncomfortable one. He doesn't like what we do. So we invent a rule by our own that states that aborigene names are forbidden in this game". It's abuse of power. It's hiding behind buttons. It's playing <I am the boss and if you don't say amen i will find a way to punish you, no matter what other arguments might occur in the specific nc thread>. Being in the nc wasn't meant to act in the sake of their own likings, but to serve the community. The own taste has to be put on the back, as well as the sympathy or antipathy for the specific users. Who's not able to seperate his work from his feelings towards his "clients" is not suitable for this job. It's just like in the races. You must not chase somebody down only because he indicated his dislike of your team concept. That would end up here in the fairness forum like this one. And that's the reason why I put it here instead of in the nc thread. Because it's an fairness issue. They "destroy the race", how it is often said when someone rides for any reason but a race-related one. They satisfy their anger by forcing the rest of the community to see Aborigene riders live without a nationality inside RSF. So now we have 10 Aborigenes in the game that are Australian, and 10 others that are treated like "trottels" and don't have a nationality anymore (guessed). Beautiful, isn't it?

And I didn't mean to address the nc with this. They keep their resistance to any criticism. I was addressing either the fairness committee or even more Buhmann as a supervisor. Because he has the power to eliminate this rampant society. And it was also Buhmann, to whom I directed the demand of deleltion of the "trottels" after being sold (and after a reasonable and generous dealing with the names has been established) .

I am sorry for those inside the nc who don't share the same attitude that I refer to here. Maybe I'm a bit unjust to them when I speak of "the" cn or "the" members. I just can't formulate it constantly in a correct manner that excludes them from my accusations. There might be some spirited nc members, although they obviously don't have the power to change anything.

[Robyklebt]

Ok

Although in the aborigene case I don't completely agree.
That site is, as Aux keep repeating, kind of a joke. Like many, if not most, Baby names sites. That's the reason for their trotteling finally as far as I understood. Not that it's Aborigenes, one guy mentioned that, not realistic. That in my view is an argument that can not be completely dismissed on principle. Had a Vietnam discussion with a Vietnam fanatic a few weeks/months ago. He had his team full of Vietnamese, but most of them with Chinese names. Yes, there is a chinese minority, butit's fairly small. By having so many Chinese/Vietnamese the Chinese were almost in the majority in Vietnam, and in those cases that argument, unrealistic is good. It's stupid if all of the sudden the Italian minority in Switzerland was the majority, if the Südtiroler had 50% of Italy, etc. etc. In this case, Aborigene, not at all. For 2 reasons: 1. As far as I know in Australia we have many riders, most of them with Englisch names, maybe some German/Greek/Lebanese/Italian etc. as well, and some Aborigenes. Not going to check, but if out of 200 riders, 20 are Aborigenes... that's not a problem. So here the argument in my opinion is over, Aborigene team=ok. As long as the general make up/picture of the country is not completely distorted, ok. Nr 2 If all of the sudden it becomes 80% Aborigenes...then maybe kind of a problem.. but if the names are correct, can't do anything. Can't say send them to Germany etc. That's where the names are from, even if they are hopelessly over represented, all you can do IMO is be nice and ask the managers to put in some English/Italian/etc. names in. If it were Italians that were overrepresented in Australia, 50%, 80%, then yes, then you can do something and say, send them to Italy. Not in the case of the Aborigenes, they are indigenous, their main base is Australia. So here in this case that argument doesn't work, for those 2 reasons.
But that as I said wasn't the reason behind the trotteling as far as I understood it. The reason was: It's not really names. According to Aux it was city names, place names etc. The Babysite not accepted, with which I agree completely. Aux seemed to indicate that he googled, only came out with city names. I don't remember the names of those riders, not going to check.. but yes, maybe they were too strict, maybe even if it's city names, some maybe still sound ok to us Aborigene name ignorants.. Maybe a message: This is not really a name, this time it passes, but please try to get real, or more realistic names next time.. I remember I did that a few times with some border cases. Ok, didn't want to do it, but I go and check the names now. Mmh, Jannali Gelar, Koorine Pride and Iluka Niley.... Ok, doesn't sound that bad to me.. Jannali Gelar sounds nice I think.. Iluka Niley, Niley sounds ok, don't really like Koorine Pride at first sight, won't start googling now. But if as a NC member then I start googling and only find those names on Baby names sites.. could be that I kill Koorine Pride too. Too my ears doesn't sound Aborigene... Niley probably gets a message as above, Gelar too. Anyway, that's not the point, I think the point is that they weren't killed for being Aborigenes, but for being city names.

But while not agreeing completely or really in this case, in general I agree.

And the thing to do IMO is: FIRE HANSA. We simply need a NC Boss who is present in the forum. Hansa might do an ok job internally, no clue, don't see it, but that's only half his job, the other half is keep the users updated on policies, hire and fire, for that he has to be active in the forum. He isn't . Fire him. Get a new guy, let him formulate a policy, let him hire new guys, fire old guys, let's see how that works.

Good place in the fairness-forum too, completely agree. BUHMANN. FIRE HANSA!

[Luna]

If I knew someone to be willing and capable of making that job I would propose him/her for that. But I don't.

Actually it's not necessary to exchange the lead of the NK, if they only get a bit more generous in judging the cases.

Although it would be indeed necessary to have a NK chief who's active in the corresponding forum threads. Lately I read Hansa writing in a race chat that he intends to never show up in the NK thread, after being asked by NoPik. That's no appropriate attitude for that job.

[Robyklebt]

That's what I'm saying. Fire him. At this point it's the only thing that makes sense. He isn't hiring unless you send him a PN, he isn't responding to complaints, he doesn't read. He is blocking the whole NC with that attitude.

[Rockstar Inc]

In the old forum we had a catalog how to act, which names should be "trottelt" etc....most of the NK worked along this catalog, only two, maybe three didn't...thats how these differences between the nk members were growing...too bad hansa didn't interfere and talked to ruhr, matrose for example...

i think if every member of the NK would have worked along this catalog, most of this senseless discussion wouldn't have started...with a strict line, the users could be more prepared when they know "ok name xy is probably going to be "trottelt", so i choose another one

too bad there was no translation in the new forum...