Catalunya h 22

Discussion about fairness-stuff. Advices of breach of rules and so on.

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pirati
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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by pirati » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:39 pm

Luna wrote:CSC was helping Armstrong when Ullrich attacked, just to conserve Bassos 2nd place overall. I sat in front of the TV, shouting. But that's how it is. You have to accept the goals of the others, even if they are substandard goals in your eyes. As far as I remember neither Ullrich nor his team did complain. Only the german media, who absolutely don't understand cycling, came up with the theory that Voigt should have helped Ullrich rather than working for Basso, because Ulrich is Germa, Basso is Italian. Although Basso was his captain. But that's a different story.


But I don't really know the constellation of your race. Cant' really assess the actions of the people. Guess I'm out of this thread again. I'm sure everybody had their reasons to do what they did. You will face other opportunities. Good luck.
It is normal for the 2nd place trying to defend his post.
But it is normal ...
Liberty defends the 4th?
Bernstein defends the 12th?
Berlin defends the 16th????????????????

please this is ridiculous. They run together is unclear. I do not believe in fairy tales ... you Luna?

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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by auxilium torino » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:55 pm

incredible that no one team of their say what!
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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:01 pm

No, le squadre dei passisti che lavorano e "normale". PUrtroppo. Troppo spesso quando c'e un attacco. Meglio 12esimo che 17essimo. Spesso manager abbastanza nuovi. Libby, non ho la minima idea, non ho visto la corse. Strano si, però Skull normalmente e abituato a correre solo contro tutti, non e il tipo ad aiutare altri per essere aiutato piu tardi a fare dei deal, mi aiuti oggi t'aiutero un altro giorno, corre la sua corsa. Libby la conosco meno, non lo so.
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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by Zentaron » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:04 pm

pirati wrote:
Luna wrote:CSC was helping Armstrong when Ullrich attacked, just to conserve Bassos 2nd place overall. I sat in front of the TV, shouting. But that's how it is. You have to accept the goals of the others, even if they are substandard goals in your eyes. As far as I remember neither Ullrich nor his team did complain. Only the german media, who absolutely don't understand cycling, came up with the theory that Voigt should have helped Ullrich rather than working for Basso, because Ulrich is Germa, Basso is Italian. Although Basso was his captain. But that's a different story.


But I don't really know the constellation of your race. Cant' really assess the actions of the people. Guess I'm out of this thread again. I'm sure everybody had their reasons to do what they did. You will face other opportunities. Good luck.
It is normal for the 2nd place trying to defend his post.
But it is normal ...
Liberty defends the 4th?
Bernstein defends the 12th?
Berlin defends the 16th????????????????

please this is ridiculous. They run together is unclear. I do not believe in fairy tales ... you Luna?
Yes, for RSF it's normal, because there is too much money to earn for it.
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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by pirati » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:20 pm

ok Roby, diaciamo che quello che dici è vero, sono buono voglio credere che sia cosi. Allora mi spieghi perche nella tappa precedente, dopo un mio sieb, Liberty è rimasta attardata di circa 1,5min con il suo scalatore(87) che difendeva il velocista e nessuno, dico nessuno, ripeto nessuno ha cercato insieme a me e poi motorizzati di lasciarla dietro??

Il tuo discorso va bene quando c'è pirati in fuga ma, chissà come mai non vale per Liberty.

Perchè Berlin fa tempo per difendere il 16 posto e non fa tempo per eliminare Liberty che era 3° in classifica. Perchè skullz non fa tempo per eliminare Liberty che potrebbe anche vincere il tour??

Adesso mi direte è normale, nel gioco Rsf è normale!

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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by pirati » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:31 pm

E poi Roby, siccome sei intelligente e si vede da come argomenti bene e con lucidità le tue riflessioni sul meccanismo del gioco, per favore dammi una risposta seria anche a questo.

Ieri sul finale di tappa Skullz era cosi senza energie che faceva tirare in pianura anche gli scalatori 80-63. Adesso se è vero che tutti vogliono correre per migliorare il piazzamento nel finale, mi spieghi perchè non hanno attaccato con i passisti?? Potevano fare il vuoto e guadagnare molte posizioni. Ti faccio un esempio.
Berlin ha il suo migliore passista in classifica a 59 sec. in 24 posizione. Perchè non ha attaccato per migliore la posizione, poteva guadagnare tranquillamente 30-40sec e rientrare nei 10. Invece sai cosa fa? mette il suo gregario con piu di 80 in pianura a tirarmi contro.

Me la dai una risposta??

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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:13 pm

Stupidita? Non riescono a leggere la corsa bene? Antipatia? Troppa passivita? Nel senso meglio non provare che provare e perdere? Non lo so. Però non e la prima volta che capita. Esempio 2010 gennaio, Ticos in giallo, attaco di Robyklebt presto, Ticos e morto dietro, ha il suo leader, fresco, il resto e morto. Cosa succede? Uno, quarto o quinto in classifica comincia a aiutarlo. Invece di attacarlo, e provare a vincere quel piccolo Giro. Ed era possibilissimo a quel punto. Un circuito finale credo, salitella ogni x chilometro, attacco con lo scalatore, e con uno "classic" e Ticos non puo farci niente. Forse gli altri poi aiutano Ticos, si, però poteva vincerlo quel Giro. Riprendere me, possibile, non sicuro, 50-50? Non mi ricordo esattamente. La miglior cosa per quello chiaramente l'attacco. Invece aiuta Ticos. E Ticos senza aiuto non mi riprende piu. Anché con l'aiuto non era sicura, infatti a perso in nervi e nel ultima salita ha attacato per riprendermi, perso energia che gli poi mancata nei ultimie 3-4 chilometri in pianura, ed a perso il Giro contro un altro... senza attacco non lo perdeva, in pianura (80-70) con senza attacco segue gli 70-80. (77-77 ha vinto finalmente credo) Pero l'aiuto er di un altro, uno che poteva vincere se attaccava nella penultima salita. Nel ultima 0 Chance, scalatore pure, finale piatto. Non lo fa, invece aiuta Ticos, mi prende le mie chances, invece di prendere l'opportunita d'attaccare e forse vincere il Giro. Perché? Poi glielo chiesto? Risposta? Scusa, ma io corro la mia corsa, to preso le tue chances? Finalmente mene frega un cazzo, per me e meglio finire quarto che quinto, devo correre per me, devo fare soldi. (e nessun problema con quel manager, siamo amici non nemici fuori dalle corse, forum ecc.) Semplicemente non a visto l'opportunità che aveva. Non era troppo concentrato (ha scritto anche quello) per i primi xxx chilometri non ha fatto niente, poi oh, ok, una che mi prende il mio posto in classifica? Riprendiamolo. Poteva vincere, potevano vincere anché altri, nessuno ha osato, ne lui ne altri, tutti per gli stessi motivi credo, non vedono l'occasione, se la vedono paura di poi essere ripresi da altri, ultima salita distanziati, perdere 2-5 posizioni in classifica...meno soldi..

Eh il mio "guess" in situazioni come questa e sempre questo. Non capire la situazione, non vedere l'opportunità, passività, paura di osare. Senza aver visto la corsa, il primo guess e questo anché qui. Poi forse mi sbaglio (mmh, capita al massimo una volta al anno :D )

I soldi? Dimentica i soldi, li guadagnerai un altra volta, hai corso per vincere, perso ingiustamente se ho capito tutto bene, qualche volta fa schifo RSF, però comunque il gioco e buono, continua sulla tua strada. Meglio perdere con onore che vincere senza onore. E meglio arrivare 15esimo lottando per vincere che quarto per arrivare quarto.

Caso della tappa precendente. Non lo so? Quando? Sieb in quale montagna? Quanti chilometri dall arrivo? SE era nel ultima ed era vicina al traguardo, ok, in quel caso la tua spiegazione sarebbe quella che mi sembra la piu probabile. Però se era prima no. Spessa questi aiutanti si svegliano alla fine, quando vedono che comunque il giorno dopo partiranno con 1000 energie, dopo tutto servono sempre 9 corridori a mille (per poi non usare l'energie il giorno dopo, devono restare a mille per poter restare a mille piu facilmente sembra) A piu di 30 chilometri, fare tempo? Mai. Gli ultimi 10-30 chilometri? Ok, si vede chi ha troppa energia, si puo lavorare.
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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by Pirkio » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:41 pm

The problem is this don't happend one time year this happend every tour h 22.00 tours of 22.00 are with a lot of rulebrakers tours of 10.00 are with a lot of pro next time i try in a middle tour like 20.00 hoping to find SM team and other friends team who know the game
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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by pirati » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:53 pm

Roby, quello che tu dici è certamente vero e vale per il 99% dei team in gara. Ma la corsa che ho visto io è stata troppo piena di queste coincidenze per non farmi pensare male. E anche le parole di Franconia che ha visto la gara dovrebbero far riflettere.
Non mi piace accusare nessuno se non ho le prove, e non sono cosi stupido da pensare che tutti i team corressero contro di me, ma l'antisportività di Liberty e Berlin (che mi ha pure preso in giro mentre faceva tempo) sono troppo evidenti.

Lo so che non succederà nulla nei loro confronti ma, ha ragione Luna, io farò la mia vendetta. E sicuramente non accetterò mai piu da nessuno lezioni di fairplay in questo gioco.

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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by NoPikouze » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:07 pm

In reality there are veeeery often teams who ride for unclear reasons, for a second-rank leader (or a leader who gets a flat tire or a "bad feeling" right after the team worked)
You can also say that is destroys the "real", the "serious" race, but... you cant do anything against it, you have to accept it.
The only thing you can do is try to explain that they should not ride and that's not in their advantage. And the best way to convince people is to be nice and polite ;)
Qui sème le vent récolte le tempo...

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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by pirati » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:27 pm

NoPikouze wrote:In reality there are veeeery often teams who ride for unclear reasons, for a second-rank leader (or a leader who gets a flat tire or a "bad feeling" right after the team worked)
You can also say that is destroys the "real", the "serious" race, but... you cant do anything against it, you have to accept it.
The only thing you can do is try to explain that they should not ride and that's not in their advantage. And the best way to convince people is to be nice and polite ;)
If you remember you and I have made ​​an attack together. in this race you win because you had the strongest sprinter and I've helped you in public after we had made ​​arrangements. I have complied with our agreements to the end. So you know I'm very correct. :)

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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by pirati » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:53 am

This evening the same. Liberty time for the last 50 km without any reason, and had no more aid skullz valid. Liberty is ranked at the end with his sprinter in ninth position.
Needless to run with players like drift.

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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by Berlin Marks » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:18 am

iam sorry. i dont know why iam rode. :oops:

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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by Liberty » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:45 am

auxilium torino wrote:sorry, Flocke, but i ride TA with Lecce and Libby, and at the 4 stage Libby was against my tempo (i ride with Razcon for Vasquez in GK, at the end thrd in GC with about 30 second to the first place), while in my group was the first in GC.and al say that my tempo was "unfair"...
i must attack with 2 at the next km. and i lose 100 energie for ever rider, and Vasquez must wait at Razcon, was more lose time was.normaly my tactic was to wait another several km., and after attack, while in plane my riders are 79 and 82, and the first only 48!
yesterday was not the same???
why Libby and the other don't attack..why Lecce say nothing, when the only was that German and Italian speak in race?

from the detail fairness in english RSF
- every team must do the best for his team . Separation of private and RSF is required.
siehst du aux und genau das mache ich hier auch. nicht mehr und nicht weniger.

und rechtfertigen für mein tempo muss ich sicher nicht. diese diskussion ist sowas von sinnlos. jeden tag fährt pirati gegen mich und dann jammert er wenn ich meinen gk platz halten möchte.

mehr werde ich hier nicht schreiben weil es sinnlos ist sich über sowas aufzuregen.

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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by pirati » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:01 am

:D that laugh, your space! six comic than to cheat in races. :evil:


I was thinking of running against a first in class, but I've raced against her baby sitter :D

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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by Liberty » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:05 am

pirati wrote::D that laugh, your space! six comic than to cheat in races. :evil:


I was thinking of running against a first in class, but I've raced against her baby sitter :D

:roll:

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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by Zentaron » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:13 am

Hey, she has no Babysitter, i have to know it, she's my royal daughter. :lol:
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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by auxilium torino » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:27 am

Liberty wrote:
siehst du aux und genau das mache ich hier auch. nicht mehr und nicht weniger.

und rechtfertigen für mein tempo muss ich sicher nicht. diese diskussion ist sowas von sinnlos. jeden tag fährt pirati gegen mich und dann jammert er wenn ich meinen gk platz halten möchte.

mehr werde ich hier nicht schreiben weil es sinnlos ist sich über sowas aufzuregen.
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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by Liberty » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:44 am

meine Meinung ist der Rennsituation angepasst.

Aux du hast bei Tirenno die Huber gezogen und wir haben Dich gebeten zu attackieren, das macht jedes Feld so und da bist du wie ich vorgestern für GK Platz 4 oder 5 gefahren. Haben wir Dich da mit -3 bewertet oder sonstwas?
Das du jetzt hier deine italienischen Freunde verteidigst ist deine Sache.

Ich bzw die anderen haben nichts unfaires gemacht daher ist diese Thema hier Blödsinn.

Gestern hat sich Pirati wieder benachteiligt gefühlt weil er attackierte, da war ich aber schon im Tempo und nicht erst als er attackierte, warum sollte ich dann aus dem Tempo gehen und er hatte keine chance auf Gelb oder sonstwas. Das Tempo gestern war mal sowas von normal da brauch man auch nicht drüber reden. Wenn sich ein Pirati da benachteiligt fühlt und du ihn da noch unterstützt, dann soltest du echt mal drüber nachdenken.

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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by pirati » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:47 am

Yesterday you made ​​time for the last 50 km! Of course I have no chance of winning. I can not always win against two teams. But if you remember I had destroyed the other leg is your team than to Skullz, and you must thank your "little friends" if you're still in fourth place! you ought to be ashamed to talk, you're wrong

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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by auxilium torino » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:59 am

Liberty wrote:meine Meinung ist der Rennsituation angepasst.

Aux du hast bei Tirenno die Huber gezogen und wir haben Dich gebeten zu attackieren, das macht jedes Feld so und da bist du wie ich vorgestern für GK Platz 4 oder 5 gefahren. Haben wir Dich da mit -3 bewertet oder sonstwas?
Das du jetzt hier deine italienischen Freunde verteidigst ist deine Sache.

Ich bzw die anderen haben nichts unfaires gemacht daher ist diese Thema hier Blödsinn.
nein, du passt die situationen an deine entschuldigung...du fahrst um platz 4 oder 5, aber deine meinung nach ich konnte es nicht um platz 3 fahren...ich musste attackieren wenn es dir passt, obwohl eine grossser nachteil für mich war.
damals war sein fahrer vollig isoliert, und ich wollte es einfach die flaches warten, weil ein 48 falch war zum attackieren.
bei euch hat keine sowas gemacht, und erlich gesagt, eine attacke hätte chance auf platz 2 oder 3 gebracht.

ich wiederhole was die meisten hier sagen, man fahrt nicht um platz 4 ,wenn eine attacke am der fuhrende kommt, aber anscheinend das ist nur für neulingen und umwichtiges team wert...bei die grosses mussen alle die hosen runter lassen, und die klappe halten

es war unfair, es bleibt unfair, und wäre die lages andersrum gewesen hätte es jetzt jedes gegen die "italiener" geschimpft...

no, you fit the situations in your apology ... you ridefor position 4 or 5, but in your opinion, I could not take it for 3rd place ... I had to attack if you like it, even this was a big disadvantage for me .
at that time was his driver completely isolated, and I wanted just wait the flat, because the rider to attack was a flat.
At Catalunya nobody try to attack , and an attack would have chance to ride for position 2 or 3.

I repeat what all say here,in RSF,ride for place 4 is not ok, if an attack at the leader is coming, but apparently that's only for newcomers and nobodty team worth ... with all the big must be the pants down, and shut up!

It was unfair, it is unfair,and would have been the other way lages, it would now each against the "Italian" scolded ...
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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by Quick » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:21 pm

Darf ich jetzt immer einen Thread aufmachen, wenn mir Renntempo nicht passt? Freut euch drauf! :twisted:
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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by pirati » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:28 pm

Quik, for no one, but for a tour of the speed in which the four in the standings always pulls the sprints for the first, instead of trying to win .... you are welcome, because you'll be running with Liberty Seguros. :D

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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by Radunion » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:44 pm

Everybody is allowed to be in tempo whenever he/she likes. Like in real live there is no need that anybody else like what your team is doing, or even see a reason for your riding. In the long run bad riding will not be benificial and disappear. As long as nobody disturb races to annoy the other teams instead of trying to win there is no problem. As long as you ride agains humans it is allways inpredictable, that makes it so interesting.

The difference to real cycling is that you do not pay for your efforts as long as you keep an eye on your riders reg value. To keep races realistic many teams will let others fight even if they have something to loose. If everybody would just ride for his/her own advantage we would see much less groups winning stages at tours.

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Re: Catalunya h 22

Post by Liberty » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:16 pm

@ quick, ja werde ich ab sofort auch machen.


@ aux
mir ist das ziemlich egal ob das italiener sind oder aus vanuatu kommen. das dieses thema hier so aufgespielt wird ist doch totaler blödsinn.
Du hast gerade selbst geschrieben das es unfair wäre für GK Platz 4 zu fahren, hast du das nicht bei TA auch gemacht, als wir die Huber abgehängt haben. Ich meine mich zu erinnern das ich bei einer der ersten Etappe was versucht habe in Sachen GK und da bis du und Berlin mir nachgefahren. Habe ich da ein riesen Aufstand gemacht?

Was andere hier denken ist mir relativ egal Aux, wenn es aus deiner Sicht unfair ist wie ich fahre, dann ist es deine Sichtweise. Dann musst du hier wirklich jede Rundfahrt posten.
Fakt ist das der Pirati ziemlich angefressen ist und das zeigt auch seine Bewertung an Lecce obwohl er absolut nichts gemacht hat, keinTempo oder sonstwas.


achso und gestern bin ich wie schon geschrieben vor piratis attacke im Tempo gewesen und dann gehe ich sicher nicht mehr aus dem Tempo und lass jeden attackieren kurz vor Ende wie sie lustig sind. da geht es schliesslich auch noch ums grüne trikot etc. am ende fahre ich immer.

ach und aux warum habe ich dann diese bewertung (bello averti con noi alla Tirrenoadriatico) von Dir bekommen und auf einmal machst du hier so einen aufriss?

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