Unrealistic Arrangements Dreizehn, r FCSL

[flockmastoR]

Perhaps the FPC should take a closer look at the voluntary disclosure in this case.

So not allowed to sit anymore?

Made mistakes, sure. But also helped a lot guys learning the game and build a nice team. Half your team is made of my advice.

And what do you mean with agreements? Maybe following my instructions move by move to win Itzulia and giving me a stage in exchange?

VB would have been caught yesterday. Thats smart racing, not surprised you didn’t get it.


Be humble Donto. You profitated more from me than anyone else.

- Unrealistic arrangements are not allowed
- Every manager must do the best for his team . Separation of private and C4F is required.

With all the chat groups around and used to coordinate multies, it is obvious to think they also use it to make unrealistic arrangements. It is usually hard to prove, but Dreizehn telling us that he is involved in such a thing makes it maybe easier to fine it.

[drei.zehn]

I won the stage, he won GC

- Every manager must do the best for his team . Separation of private and C4F is required.

So tell me in which world this can be an unrealistic arrangement?

[flockmastoR]

I won the stage, he won GC

- Every manager must do the best for his team . Separation of private and C4F is required.

So tell me in which world this can be an unrealistic arrangement?

It's unrealistic if you make arrangements in chat groups that are hidden for other players.
It's a game of incomplete information, if some players profit from information based on their personal connections this is an unfair advantage. Maximizing your profit doesn't necessarily mean that the actions that took you there must be legal.

[Berlin Marks]

You need to know that Donto is really bad and has some mentors and Donto maybe got some tips from one of his mentors in the race.. like always.

[flockmastoR]

You need to know that Donto is really bad and has some mentors and Donto maybe got some tips from one of his mentors in the race.. like always.

Sorry but you just go off topic and add a personal attack to it.

Maybe following my instructions move by move to win Itzulia and giving me a stage in exchange?

get a stage in exchange, well how else would you read it if not for an arrangement

[drei.zehn]

I won the stage, he won GC

- Every manager must do the best for his team . Separation of private and C4F is required.

So tell me in which world this can be an unrealistic arrangement?

It's unrealistic if you make arrangements in chat groups that are hidden for other players.
It's a game of incomplete information, if some players profit from information based on their personal connections this is an unfair advantage. Maximizing your profit doesn't necessarily mean that the actions that took you there must be legal.

And where is this in the rulebook? Thats just your interpretation. Realistic means for me in cycling. And one taking gc, the other the stage is very realistic in this case.

And to make it clear. In the original statement it maybe sounds worse cause I was angry with Donto. We attacked together, worked together as good as possible to the line. He took gc and didn’t sprint for stage in exchange. I didn’t asked for it, it was his Intention to not sprint.

[drei.zehn]

Sorry but you just go off topic and add a personal attack to it.

I'm not sure who is playing out a personal issue here.

[flockmastoR]

I won the stage, he won GC

- Every manager must do the best for his team . Separation of private and C4F is required.

So tell me in which world this can be an unrealistic arrangement?

It's unrealistic if you make arrangements in chat groups that are hidden for other players.
It's a game of incomplete information, if some players profit from information based on their personal connections this is an unfair advantage. Maximizing your profit doesn't necessarily mean that the actions that took you there must be legal.

And where is this in the rulebook? Thats just your interpretation. Realistic means for me in cycling. And one taking gc, the other the stage is very realistic in this case.

I think everybody with some common sense reads it in that way, given that there are outside-game communication about actions.

And to make it clear. In the original statement it maybe sounds worse cause I was angry with Donto. We attacked together, worked together as good as possible to the line. He took gc and didn’t sprint for stage in exchange. I didn’t asked for it, it was his Intention to not sprint.

I didn't say that you are guilty of whatsoever. Just that your message might be a reason to look at it closer, as one could read it in that way. And the formulation "following my instructions move by move to win Itzulia and giving me a stage in exchange" really targets towards my interpretation.

[flockmastoR]

Sorry but you just go off topic and add a personal attack to it.

I'm not sure who is playing out a personal issue here.

Sorry but nobody ever goes personal against you, while you and your (former) friends go personal against admins and FPC members all the time. You compare the methods with those of the 3.Reich and rage around on every channel. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[drei.zehn]

I didn't say that you are guilty of whatsoever. Just that your message might be a reason to look at it closer, as one could read it in that way. And the formulation "following my instructions move by move to win Itzulia and giving me a stage in exchange" really targets towards my interpretation.

Like I’ve said, sounds worse cause I was angry. Donto the biggest abuser of personal DMs in races pointing at others for „arrangements“

[drei.zehn]

Sorry but you just go off topic and add a personal attack to it.

I'm not sure who is playing out a personal issue here.

Sorry but nobody ever goes personal against you, while you and your (former) friends go personal against admins and FPC members all the time. You compare the methods with those of the 3.Reich and rage around on every channel. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Ah come that was just a really bad joke, deleted it immediately. Actually hoped that noone ever saw it cause I just embarassed myself there

[Radunion]

We probably need a rules clarification here. Something like coordination during the race, outside the race chat, is forbidden. The fair play rules are ambiguous for good reason, to protect against creative interpretation, but here, clearer rules would help. Under the current rules, it looks like a tough decision for the FPC to make.

[Yamaka Corse]

We probably need a rules clarification here. Something like coordination during the race, outside the race chat, is forbidden. The fair play rules are ambiguous for good reason, to protect against creative interpretation, but here, clearer rules would help. Under the current rules, it looks like a tough decision for the FPC to make.

I think in the moment "we" chose to have a separate channel like Discord we allow everyone to coordinate outside the gamechat. A win is a win and untill you got one and your "partner" got one I don't see "unrealistic" that's happend in cycling very often, to be honest, sometimes real racers just helps themself because of the nationality, like an Italian would help an Italian, a French help a French, a Scottish not (Simpsonlike joke here)

[Radunion]

I hope you see my point as well. If some teams coordinate in public in the race chat and others talk away from the game there is an advantage. I call it unfair even if it is not regulated at the moment. In addition communication is part of the fun in the game. If you take it away from the game, it is less fun for everybody.

Banning it during the race for teams involved in the race is quite narrow. Those additional channels are still useful, but if you want to speak during the race there is the race chat.

[Team stevens]

Unfortunately, this is one of the game’s limitations. How can we actually prove that there was real cooperation between them? I know it, you know it, we all know it, but it is impossible to prove.

I will use the Giro as an example, a race I watched a lot to prepare for my own defeat in the 18H edition.

There were two members of the group in the morning race and two others in the 14H race, and the gameplay was outrageous.

In the morning, ALK was completely fed up with NML’s excessive control. NML tried absolutely nothing and just kept hammering the pace on every mountain stage. Ask ALK himself what his experience of that race was. He was so frustrated that he even started calling him out in the race chat. He asked him how many stages he wanted and whether he was ever going to try anything for the GC. Obviously, he was never going to.

At 14H, it was a different kind of show. Tuk had the sprint, so they could stay relaxed on the flat stages. Then came a succession of breakaways, suspicious chains of attacks (stage 7, for example) and situations that looked like, “You finish first, I finish second.”

That is simply what I observed while watching the races, and unfortunately it is impossible to prove. But it is extremely unlikely that people who are FPC members, who were cheating with multi and bragging about it on WhatsApp, suddenly decided during the races: “Now we are racing, so it is every man for himself.”

Especially when those five teams are currently dominating Division 1, farming Grand Tours and category 6 races.

[Berlin Marks]

Shout out for the one who is in a big French discord group. But I guess you only talk about football and not about the game. For sure. Those legendary elaska/stevens attacks without any communication in the race chat really are just genius.

Also as far I watched giro races morning all communication between NML and Dreizehn are readable in the main race chats. What kind of arrangement do you need for example for NML to dominate the morning giro? Look at these fields.i think in a morning field even you Steven’s or elaska could win a race which is a higher cat than 1. maybe you should try it!

[Berlin Marks]

Also Alk said himself he just rode in giro for maxing points for the div 1 win that’s why he didn’t try something outrageous. And NML even wanted to try something but with only one climber and no cooperating Bugatti and alk. What should he have done else? Maybe you can tell me how he could try to win the gc?

[Berlin Marks]

Shout out for the one who is in a big French discord group. But I guess you only talk about football and not about the game. For sure. Those legendary elaska/stevens attacks without any communication in the race chat really are just genius.

Also as far I watched giro races morning all communication between NML and Dreizehn are readable in the main race chats. What kind of arrangement do you need for example for NML to dominate the morning giro? Look at these fields.i think in a morning field even you Steven’s or elaska could win a race which is a higher cat than 1. maybe you should try it!

Oh wait.. weren’t you in the horrible giro edition with like 10 stage wins and your French buddy „Seibu“ won the gc? Aren’t you in one discord chat with him? How is it possible you couldn’t beat him? Did you have arrangements? Stage wins for gc?

Very toxic behavior to put more and more oil in the fire just to have more escalation here.

[schappy]

Shout out for the one who is in a big French discord group. But I guess you only talk about football and not about the game. For sure. Those legendary elaska/stevens attacks without any communication in the race chat really are just genius.

Also as far I watched giro races morning all communication between NML and Dreizehn are readable in the main race chats. What kind of arrangement do you need for example for NML to dominate the morning giro? Look at these fields.i think in a morning field even you Steven’s or elaska could win a race which is a higher cat than 1. maybe you should try it!

Oh wait.. weren’t you in the horrible giro edition with like 10 stage wins and your French buddy „Seibu“ won the gc? Aren’t you in one discord chat with him? How is it possible you couldn’t beat him? Did you have arrangements? Stage wins for gc?

Very toxic behavior to put more and more oil in the fire just to have more escalation here.

The one who bring toxic here is you. Stevens didnt ride the Giro with Seibu and me. Stevens only report his observations. And hanging on each other is very normal, when you ride often enough in the same race. You know how the other attacks and ride and who are making great dumb attacks, there you will not hang with your rider.

For me its very easy to fight each other in races when you talk much about other stuff on other ways than in the race chat. For example, i write a lot with some Teams here. But never talk directly about the race then. Thats in my eyes very clear and the best behavior. You can make somecomments about the race, but never a tactical talk about it.

And my meaning to this "case". In my eyes, its easier to coop with guys you know and maybe you like, if you dont need the other, you are more suspicious if you can trust, so yes, i coop better with teams i trust. Its unfair? I mean not, its normal.

[Pokemon Club]

I hope you see my point as well. If some teams coordinate in public in the race chat and others talk away from the game there is an advantage. I call it unfair even if it is not regulated at the moment. In addition communication is part of the fun in the game. If you take it away from the game, it is less fun for everybody.

Banning it during the race for teams involved in the race is quite narrow. Those additional channels are still useful, but if you want to speak during the race there is the race chat.

All can communicate in private as all have access to forum and can send PM currently.
This argue of people should talk only in public I will never understand. If Decathlon and Lidl-Trek want to prepare a move to put UAE in difficulties, they have to do it in public channel only ? Seems a bit strange.
The only question if their is alliance should be if ally get a true advantage or not. At the end in a 15 team field if 4 are ally the others 11 are free to take counter-measure against them.

[Yamaka Corse]

I hope you see my point as well. If some teams coordinate in public in the race chat and others talk away from the game there is an advantage. I call it unfair even if it is not regulated at the moment. In addition communication is part of the fun in the game. If you take it away from the game, it is less fun for everybody.

Banning it during the race for teams involved in the race is quite narrow. Those additional channels are still useful, but if you want to speak during the race there is the race chat.

Game is presented as "All races live! Against real opponents! Day after day the real cycling calendar! Build your team and lead it to victory!"
No chat mentioned anywhere. Also experienced players would know how to play and predict other moves, is when the fun of the game starts.
Only advantage I see in write my strategy in chat is the one I give to my opponents. No thanks. I prefere to be a "Mobster" than favourite weak players? Maybe.

[Berlin Marks]

The one who bring toxic here is you. Stevens didnt ride the Giro with Seibu and me. Stevens only report his observations. And hanging on each other is very normal, when you ride often enough in the same race. You know how the other attacks and ride and who are making great dumb attacks, there you will not hang with your rider.

For me its very easy to fight each other in races when you talk much about other stuff on other ways than in the race chat. For example, i write a lot with some Teams here. But never talk directly about the race then. Thats in my eyes very clear and the best behavior. You can make somecomments about the race, but never a tactical talk about it.

And my meaning to this "case". In my eyes, its easier to coop with guys you know and maybe you like, if you dont need the other, you are more suspicious if you can trust, so yes, i coop better with teams i trust. Its unfair? I mean not, its normal.

First of all Steven’s rode the giro with you and Seibu. And of course I don’t think there have been any arrangements. So I don’t believe there have been in 9h or 14h giro. But Stevens is telling that. Just saying that the 18h edition also looks like an arrangement if you want to see some. Also he is in a French discord chat. He just said it’s wrong to have those chats. So I provocate just with assumings like he did. Nothing more nothing less.

[Team stevens]

Shout out for the one who is in a big French discord group. But I guess you only talk about football and not about the game. For sure. Those legendary elaska/stevens attacks without any communication in the race chat really are just genius.

Also as far I watched giro races morning all communication between NML and Dreizehn are readable in the main race chats. What kind of arrangement do you need for example for NML to dominate the morning giro? Look at these fields.i think in a morning field even you Steven’s or elaska could win a race which is a higher cat than 1. maybe you should try it!

Oh wait.. weren’t you in the horrible giro edition with like 10 stage wins and your French buddy „Seibu“ won the gc? Aren’t you in one discord chat with him? How is it possible you couldn’t beat him? Did you have arrangements? Stage wins for gc?

Very toxic behavior to put more and more oil in the fire just to have more escalation here.

The one who bring toxic here is you. Stevens didnt ride the Giro with Seibu and me. Stevens only report his observations. And hanging on each other is very normal, when you ride often enough in the same race. You know how the other attacks and ride and who are making great dumb attacks, there you will not hang with your rider.

For me its very easy to fight each other in races when you talk much about other stuff on other ways than in the race chat. For example, i write a lot with some Teams here. But never talk directly about the race then. Thats in my eyes very clear and the best behavior. You can make somecomments about the race, but never a tactical talk about it.

And my meaning to this "case". In my eyes, its easier to coop with guys you know and maybe you like, if you dont need the other, you are more suspicious if you can trust, so yes, i coop better with teams i trust. Its unfair? I mean not, its normal.

I don’t think I’m adding oil to the fire. I’m just saying that there’s a difference between actually having multiple accounts ( for example, a “brother in law” who lives with you, plays through a VPN and sometimes shares the same IP address ) and suspected cooperation.

Unfortunately, cooperation is almost impossible to prove, even when there’s a strong chance that it happened.

I’ve raced with both Schappy and Seibu, so I know how they usually play. Seibu is a fairly aggressive player, while Schappy is more defensive. But if Schappy and I end up in the same move, I know he’s not going to screw me over for no reason, and I wouldn’t do that to him either. If I win and Schappy loses, it’ll be fair. We quickly agree on something, then let’s go, we stick to the deal.

I also know that Black Star can’t control a GC, and neither can Hoeffs. You have to adapt to the players around you because you race against the same people regularly and eventually learn how they play.

So the bottom line is that, even though I believe there were some really shady coope during both the morning and afternoon Giro, it’s impossible to prove. In my opinion, it’s impossible to judge you based on this case.

[Berlin Marks]

I don’t think I’m adding oil to the fire. I’m just saying that there’s a difference between actually having multiple accounts ( for example, a “brother in law” who lives with you, plays through a VPN and sometimes shares the same IP address ) and suspected cooperation.

Unfortunately, cooperation is almost impossible to prove, even when there’s a strong chance that it happened.

I’ve raced with both Schappy and Seibu, so I know how they usually play. Seibu is a fairly aggressive player, while Schappy is more defensive. But if Schappy and I end up in the same move, I know he’s not going to screw me over for no reason, and I wouldn’t do that to him either. If I win and Schappy loses, it’ll be fair. We quickly agree on something, then let’s go, we stick to the deal.

I also know that Black Star can’t control a GC, and neither can Hoeffs. You have to adapt to the players around you because you race against the same people regularly and eventually learn how they play.

So the bottom line is that, even though I believe there were some really shady coope during both the morning and afternoon Giro, it’s impossible to prove. In my opinion, it’s impossible to judge you based on this case.

Sorry that’s just bullshit. You may should keep your believings in church.

[Nomorelulz]

Unfortunately, this is one of the game’s limitations. How can we actually prove that there was real cooperation between them? I know it, you know it, we all know it, but it is impossible to prove.

I will use the Giro as an example, a race I watched a lot to prepare for my own defeat in the 18H edition.

There were two members of the group in the morning race and two others in the 14H race, and the gameplay was outrageous.

In the morning, ALK was completely fed up with NML’s excessive control. NML tried absolutely nothing and just kept hammering the pace on every mountain stage. Ask ALK himself what his experience of that race was. He was so frustrated that he even started calling him out in the race chat. He asked him how many stages he wanted and whether he was ever going to try anything for the GC. Obviously, he was never going to.

At 14H, it was a different kind of show. Tuk had the sprint, so they could stay relaxed on the flat stages. Then came a succession of breakaways, suspicious chains of attacks (stage 7, for example) and situations that looked like, “You finish first, I finish second.”

That is simply what I observed while watching the races, and unfortunately it is impossible to prove. But it is extremely unlikely that people who are FPC members, who were cheating with multi and bragging about it on WhatsApp, suddenly decided during the races: “Now we are racing, so it is every man for himself.”

Especially when those five teams are currently dominating Division 1, farming Grand Tours and category 6 races.

So first of all, I wasn't even in this or another group with them during giro. I joined start/mid June - so it's not possible what you insinuating here. The whole group can validate this.

Then I have to say that what you are saying is simply not true. It was my first gt ever and I also wasn't very experienced with tours, esp long ones. First half of the Giro I tried something with low risk 2-3 times, but I noticed no one cooperated with me against dreizehn. This was mainly due to the fact I had a 87 climber and others had 84 or lower. From team strengths mainly Bugatti (only 80 climbers) and alk (2x 83, guys) could really coop and challenge dreizehns strong team (next to KP, 1 85 climber + 80-70 and several classics) with me. Alone id be much to weak.

I needed to get at least 3min 30s to dreizehn, not really possible in the morning giro against someone that has a team for controlling and knows how to do it.

I also saw in my tries for GC that I got vulnerable against all the other teams that showed no interest in cooperation. Due to my inexperience in long tours I chatted with several teams not participating in the morning giro about my options, what they think etc. and everyone said it may be the best outcome to go for stages, to also secure podium, possibly p2 against Alks strong TT climber. So the giro became a fight about p2 with alk and dreizehn could relax. Alk himself didn't try one single time against dreizehn, cause he probably also was focused on me. I get the frustration for his giro, but that's not on me.

In the end I had the option of a very little chance for a gt win or try to go for the saver option of lot of stages (I didn't really had a challenge there with my 87 climber against 84s) and a podium. When the first option became less likely due to all things I mentioned it was pretty clear for me. And it was a success, 9 stages (5from mountain coop) and p3 GC, if I didn't make mistakes p2 very much possible.


I don't know what you are onto here, you mention us/me "dominating" div 1 for the past couple months a lot. So maybe that's your take? you yourself are one of the very good teams here, if you simply ride more tours and less cat1s, you can be there too I guess. Conspiring against other good teams is not the solution.