Classiques Belges

[olmania]

No thanks

I can do lots of work to draw tours if necessary and if I have enough time.
But these races, I'd prefer not as long as I have absolutely no experience of these short hills and pavés; it's really not my thing

[Pokemon Club]

Bah I am sure Gaurain or Unicef will do it !

[Pokemon Club]

http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... ension=c4f
Try it because all looks uninterest by that. I follow Roby/Gaurain info in a majority of case :

Katteberg 6*
Leberg 6
La Houpe 1 6 4
Berg Stene 7
Boigneberg 5
Eikenberg 6**
Stationberg 3*** 3
Taaienberg 6***
Knokteberg 8
Hotonberg 4
Rotelenberg 3
Kortekeer 6
Kadelberg 5
Paterberg 7**
Oude Kwaremont 6*** 3***
Knarnemelkbeekstraat 7
Tiegemberg 6

For kasseien, I use the same than Roby.

[Pokemon Club]

For Gent - Wevelgem looks the same race than last year

http://www.gent-wevelgem.be/fr/elite-men/race/track

http://www.rtbf.be/sport/cyclisme/cours ... sonId=2013

http://www.rtbf.be/sport/cyclisme/cours ... sonId=2014

[NoPikouze]

I have just been looking into the Paterberg too see what it is really. So here we had 7**.

http://www.climbbybike.com/NL/beklimmin ... tainID=942
http://www.cols-cyclisme.com/flandres/b ... n-c436.htm

To me it should be 4 or 5%. Let's say 5**

That would probably not result in worse siebs as the current version.

Maybe it can be reviewed next year.

Thx for designing it nevertheless.

[Moscow Team Pro]

[Pokemon Club]

Looks flat compare last year, too flat.

[Rastaman]

If nobody has designed the cobble classics I can do it. I have some freetime this week.

[Rastaman]

De omloop,
little changes in hellingen:
Leberg 5%
Eikenberg 7%

http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... ension=c4f

[Rastaman]

Next one:


One change i think, made nokereberg a **

[gaurain rx]

Ok, so E3 Prijs Harelbeke :

1. What's the same as in 2014 :

All the "heiligen/cobble part". So from km 30 till km 196/197 of this 2015 version, I would take version 2014 for sure (except I would add ** on km 195 (Varentstraat is 2km imo (and after checking on google map))!

2. CHANGES

a. This year edition is 3km longer (215km instead of 212).
b. top of Tiegemberg is 18.8km from the finish (instead of 14 last year)
c. Begin of first hill (Katteberg) is 1-2km earlier in comparison with last year.

3. Gaurain PROPOSAL

a. Make it 2km shorter till first hill.
b. Redraw the final 19km. Make it 5km longer between top of last hill and the finish (so all in all, we have our 215km)
c. Keep the "bumpy" part same as last year... Maybe just change Eikenberg (7 instead of 6) (km 121 of last year) to fit with what Rasta did for Het Blad)

More info there (GPX/kml files, etc, etc)! Don't know if all in all it's a big job, but if needed I can do (if I manage to).

http://www.e3-harelbeke.be/nl/wedstrijd ... cours-2015

[gaurain rx]

So, Nokere Koerse.

1. Changes :

The first 79kms changed. They're not starting anymore from Ronse but from Deinze.

2. To keep as it is :

The "Locale Ronde" is the same. So from 79 (first Nokere Berg) till the finish, everything is the same as last year and I don't see any reason the change the % and * ratings in this part!

So, I try to fix the first part of the road for this wednesday.

EDIT : http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 1425980815

[Pokemon Club]

RSF bug, but after tomorrow, I saw enough yesterday to repeat that, our notation for helligens aren't working well. Actually mountain value take too much importance compare paves value.

[Alkworld]

RSF bug, but after tomorrow, I saw enough yesterday to repeat that, our notation for helligens aren't working well. Actually mountain value take too much importance compare paves value.

I'd rather say that:
1) the skills difference is stronger compared to the real races. In our case, climbers and sprinters will stumble over some harmless cobblestones in average tempo while flat riders lose lots of time on a simple short hill. Both of those you wouldn't see much in a real race.
2) there's not enough distinction between long climbs and short hills (i.e. hellinge this weekend).
3) ... this list could be continued.
But anyway, I think it's better than last spring and C4F is C4F and not real life If we're slowly getting closer to reality, I'm fine with it, as long as it's fun.

[skull]

I dont like how the hills with cobble work.
I would expect that a rider needs good skill in Uphill AND Cobble.
But right now Uphill OR Cobble is enough.
So in the Ronde there are in the end riders with 55 Uphill and 70 Cobble where i expect at least something like 65 - 75.

[Pokemon Club]

I dont like how the hills with cobble work.
I would expect that a rider needs good skill in Uphill AND Cobble.
But right now Uphill OR Cobble is enough.
So in the Ronde there are in the end riders with 55 Uphill and 70 Cobble where i expect at least something like 65 - 75.

There was always riders with 55 Up / 80+ pave at the end in the past, but never so few.
Anyway, it is PAVES Classic, paves should be more important than it is actually. On helligen, the notation is totally subjective, I don't know why we can't give 1 more star at all heligen sections for example.

[Robyklebt]

It's not a pavé classic actually. Imagine if the organizer took out all the hellingen once, just left the few flat pavé parts, Haaghoek as the highlight, everybody would complain that they completely changed the nature/spirit of the race. That now it became an easy Paris Roubaix, more something for a mass sprint than something for Cancellara (especially if he's out injured )
About Paterberg: 5 or 6 or 7? Imo yesterday showed that 5 just wouldn't be enough to simulate it properly. From the group behind, who was the strongest? Greg Van Avermaet. Jumpy Jumping Greg, yes, that's right. Nr 2? Sagan, now Sagan can do almost everything, although his motor lately seems to explode at the end. Both E3 and RVV he just couldn't do more at the end, couldn't follow Jumpy Jumping Greg even before he was reaaallly sprinting. And in general Sagan is a kind of a Jumpy Jump too, I'd qualify him more as a jump guy than a power guy.

About what Skullz said: Agreed, should be both needed, mountain AND pavé, not either or. That's what Buh attempted to do with his change last year after Roubaix. Did it work... I really can't say, I just don't have the riders to really know what's happening, mine are just always dropped in hills with pavé. Would need to have sometihng a bit stronger to form an opinion that is worth something. One thing though I can say: While before the siebing certainly wasn't perfect, I didn't think it was as bad as many said it was. A big problem was that people expected to sieb with their helpers, not with their leaders. A sieb with a strong leader (Qian, 77-82 with pavé, I think 78) did some damage. Not enough probably, yes (and it was the muur 9****), don't really remember, but his sieb made it a small group. What would he do now? I don't know, don't know who did what it what race, but would be interesting to know if Peterlin or somebody like him tried a Paterberg or 6*** Kwaremontsieb, and what the result was. But, it has to be a sieb by fit leaders to really see how good the whole thing works, a guy with 100 energy less.... makes no sense.

[team fl]

I did a sieb with Peterlin at the first Kwaremont km and right after with Bratoev at the second, later at the Paterberg again with Peterlin. Four riders left in the front group after that (Bratoev could not follow at the Paterberg, but worked between Kwaremont and Paterberg). But the damage Bratoev dealt at the 3*** was way worse than Peterlin at 6***. At the Paterberg (7**), the worst mountain/pavé guy that could follow was a 70 mountain and 75, who won the race... grrr...

So, in the end the group right after the Paterberg looked like this:

- Fran Peterlin - 78-80, 78 pavé
- Valdemar Boström 73-81, 79 pavé
- Ulrich Thurmayr 71-81, 75 pavé
- Frenna Vanhoutte, 70-77, 75 pavé

Don't know much about fighting or power, but:

- Martin Dupont, 73-77, 77 pavé has not been able to keep up at the Kwaremont, most probably due to not fighting when Bratoev did tempo at the 3***.

[Pokemon Club]

I did a sieb with Peterlin at the first Kwaremont km and right after with Bratoev at the second, later at the Paterberg again with Peterlin. Four riders left in the front group after that (Bratoev could not follow at the Paterberg, but worked between Kwaremont and Paterberg). But the damage Bratoev dealt at the 3*** was way worse than Peterlin at 6***. At the Paterberg (7**), the worst mountain/pavé guy that could follow was a 70 mountain and 75, who won the race... grrr...

So, in the end the group right after the Paterberg looked like this:

- Fran Peterlin - 78-80, 78 pavé
- Valdemar Boström 73-81, 79 pavé
- Ulrich Thurmayr 71-81, 75 pavé
- Frenna Vanhoutte, 70-77, 75 pavé

Don't know much about fighting or power, but:

- Martin Dupont, 73-77, 77 pavé has not been able to keep up at the Kwaremont, most probably due to not fighting when Bratoev did tempo at the 3***.

Not sure Dupont hasn't able to keep up because he isn't fight.
It remember me stage 3 of Sachsen 2014, with the last hilly pave difficulty. 4 kms 7*** / 3*** / 2*** / 7***. Greenpeace with Seppe Vershuere (71-81 78.3 at that time) was the strongest on the 1st 7***, Koko Kaga (63-86 83.4) the strongest on 3*** and 2***, and Seppe could gain 2-3 sec against her in the last 7***. No one could survive to their tempo, riders as ThordRubert Flodqvist (56-87 82.5) from Ferrari was sieb on 7***, others Yoongblood (76-82 75.4) from leso, Hamed Serfaty (70-79 75.1) and Valdemar Boström (70-81 79.2) from barba, Sodom Gommorra (72-82 73.3) from Sandow or Gilber Zurtia (74-78 76.5) from Auxilium was sieb on 3***.
They was maybe not top form, but even without they are strong rider. And Seppe or Koko wasn't as strong than Peterlin or Bratoev.

[team fl]

If fighting was not the problem, then it has to be form and/or power. Because at least two riders who are weaker skillwise were able to keep up. I even think that it was a mix of form/power and not fighting.

But the most important thing is: the hellingen were quite selective if ridden hard with a strong rider (skill and power). Perhaps the most selective km was the second Kwaremont km with Bratoev, or let's say the combination of Peterlin and Brateov for the two km of Kwaremont.

[Bear]

At the morning edition of RVV I siebed with Karro at the last Kwaremont and the Paterberg. He was almost as fit as my leader Meo. I think 5-6 guys could stay in front. Would have been one more with Falke fighting. This worked ok I think. Slightly more selective would be very good, but I think it was ok. Better than 2 years ago.

[gaurain rx]

Het Nieuwsblad slightly changed this year. Not fully but in some parts (first 70 and last 25km are the same I think, then some road adaptation at some points but more or less the same climbs in the same order... Sometimes one replaced by another, one added one replaced).

[Robyklebt]

Interesting to see that the designer of difficult to design classics don't think it necessary to share how they rate their stuff anymore. Especially in races in Flanders, where those hills with pavé (and those without too) can be rated in very different ways (without making it wrong) it would be important to share stuff. Not only so that people can see how it's rated in detail, what things changed etc., give input, but also as a help for future designers of these races. After all nobody knows if the designer of this year (some guy who felt too important to put his name on the profile...) will continue designing these classics forever. And the guy starting then won't have the all the information (be it good or bad) that for example Pokemon had when he started designing those classics. But once again, instead of helping RSF Pokemon does his best to hurt it.

Questions that could and should be asked for exampe: Why is the Paterberg 6** in Harelbeke but 7*** in the Ronde van Vlanderen? I understand the increase in pavé. But why steeper? That I don't get.

Of course I don't expect an answer, Pokemon has made it clear that he thinks he doesn't need to answer questions, it's the community that should shut up or pray to him daily or something.

[gaurain rx]

https://www.rtbf.be/sport/dossier/les-c ... d=10124953

New finish line for Liège-Bastogne-Liège --> Heading towards the center of Liège after Roche aux Faucons... So might be something more for strong classics or 80-70 than climbers!

[gaurain rx]

So here begins the "casse tête".

Designed Het Nieuwsblad 2019... I'm not done yet (I need to make it correct in terms of altitudes) but the hills and cobble section are done.

Alll in all, they completly changed the road (yeah kind off at least).

So here are the values I used, based on what's in this Topic and also what the designers choosed the last years.



In the order of the race

km 39-40 - Haghoek : -1***/1***
km 42 - Leberg : 5 (instead of 4 last years and 6 in 2010-2013) --> Infos are unclear about this hill. The official pdf of the race tells 950m, 4.2% with a peak of 14%. The official Website of the race tells 700m, 6,1% peak at 14... Guess they don't take the foot at the same place.
km 70-71 - Huisepontweg : 0**/0**
km 75 - Mullendorp : * (there are 2 times 200m of city cobbles... Could also not be rated but I guess * doesn't hurt)
km 76 - Den Ast : 3 (350m at 5,5% with a peak at 11% --> So I'm also 100% open to 2)
km 102 - Katteberg : 4* (700m at 6% (peak 11%) + City cobbles)
km103-104 - Holleweg : 2**/1* (Second km only 500m of cobbles).
km 117-118 - Paddestraat : 2**/-1** (2300m of cobbles, goes slightly uphill at the beginning)
km 134 - Valkenberg : 5 (as last year it seems, before it was a 6)
km 146 - Wolvenberg : 6 (instead of 5 last year, 8 before)
km 147 - Ruijterstraat : -1***
149 - Kerkgate : 0**
km 152 - Jagerij : 0**
km 158 - Molenberg : 4** (instead of 4*** last year and 6** before)
km 172 - Vossenhol : 4
km 184 - Muur van Grammont : 8**** (Last year 7*** before 9****)
km 188 - Bosberg : 6** (As usual)