TDF 2011

[lesossies]

It is never too early to begin.
TDF 2011
Date 02.07.2011 - 24.07.2011
http://www.letour.fr/2011/TDF/COURSE/f ... cours.html

http://www.letour.fr/2011/TDF/COURSE/us ... cours.html
http://06.live-radsport.ch/details_211 ... _2011.html

Let us first discuss the start times.

traditonal -> 5times -> 10;15;18;20;22
holiday times -> 6 times -> 9;13;16;19;21;23

[Rockstar Inc]

6 times too much...nuff said

[auxilium torino]

i think that must try the way to 6 time

first: GT, Ande, december tour and love to the game are the only reason while we pay.
Second:english and spanish speak are very popular in other nation, that have no chance to play in MEZ time.
third, normaly at 20 hours we have a 2 field group...why not try to have 6 first group?
at least is also fair for all players

[Robyklebt]

6: Too much.

Make it 5

And no need to avoid all the times used for the Giro, it still has to somewhat make sense

9/11-14/16-17/18-21-23

IMO makes sense. I'd go for 9-14-17(18)-21-23

Oh, Aux a post:

Spanish and Englisch are not here yet. ANd of course they won't play in MEZ. So something like lesossies proposal won't help them much. When we get a North-Central-South American+Aussies-NZ invasion, the additional times will have to be different.

NA for example is 6-9 hours back.

10=1-4 fairly useless, really niche time.
15=6-9 very early morning, not perfect
18=9-12 their morning
20=11-14
22=13-16

We have no evening for NA, so that would have to be something like 4am in Europe, to get 19-22
If you expect an invasion til the tour, ok, let's add 4am. Or even 4am +6am, so 19-22 and 21-24 depending on where exactly they are. California and NY are not the same

SA is a bit closer, it's 4-6 back. with those 7 times (10-15-18-20-22-4-6) they are fairly well covered, no need to add something immediately.
Australia: 8 hours ahead in summer, +9 or 10 in winter, well the east at least, Perth less...+8 right now, so 18-23-2-4-6-10-14 in Sydney... Could work. We could just add "our" 4 and 6am with the usual +/-1 and be kind of ok for the beginning...

Just that I don't think it's worth it as long as they are not here.

[olmania]

If you want to talk about the transnationalism of the game, and the problems of time. The first change should be the possibility to adapt the jet lag.
Here when it is 13h, it is 14h on RSF. Put a clock on RSF, possible to change this clock, it depends of where you live.
And if the race is at 2pm in Germany-France-Italy, the race is shown at 1pm here. And 5am in the states !

[Zentaron]

Giro is 15 h, so Tour at 13 h or 14 h please.

[Zentaron]

Hm. Now other question. Will there be a 24 h TdF as it was at the Giro? Maybe instead of 23?^^ Can be that i have to chose this one then, caused by my newly always changing working times.

[auxilium torino]

pezant and aux kan at 24 hours, like the giro, 23 are to early, while we must work.Pirati and Motorizzati also intrested at 24 hours to race.

[lesossies]

Last year 5 times
10,14,18,20,22 h
20,15,11,29,27 teams
only 2 splitting at 20 and 22h -> it speaks for 20 and 22h again

6 times OK
with 23h
9;13;16;19;21;23 h
with 24h
9;13;16;19;21;24 h
9;13;16;19;22;24 h
9;13;16;20;22;24 h

or 7 times
9,12,15,18,20,22,24 too much ?

Should we make a poll ?

[Rockstar Inc]

7 times? no freaking way...

[Zentaron]

7 times are way too much.

[Pirkio]

6 time is wonderfoull..

9 ; 13 ; 16 ; 20 ; 22 ; 24 h

but can 24 be 23,45? for avoid problem of race like in Giro h24

[lesossies]

We can test before, in a long night race, if the 2h limit has been clean changed.

[Robyklebt]

6 times? The ape has his doubts...

But he doesn't have any doubt that
9-13-16-20-22-24 is utter crap

You add a 2 times, 13+24, and cut the early evening, 17-19.

Cutting 17-19 is just stupid. S T U P I D.
Giro 18 had 18 teams (if that "Anzeige is correct, leso, tell Buh to make it corrrect, it would help the apes complaining campaigns a lot)
Daupiné 18 had 20 teams
TdS 19 has 23 teams

So no, don't cut the early evening. Although have to admit to be happy that for once "cut the afternoon" was not the first proposal, but it's just too clearly still not a good idea to cut an established time with good participation like the early evening. they have a 3 hour window, don't make it 5.

6 times? Really? Don't know, if you really want then ok.. but don't forget that at RSF the Giro usually has more teams than the Tour

118 vs 102 last year (if I calculated correctly and that display is correct)

Giro this year: 105 with 6 times.

Has there been an increase in users since May? Actually seems possible, but only Buh and Leso, most likely Leso really know. Increase in users and license holders? Leso really thinks that 6 fairly well visited times are likely? Then ok... Mmh, short check, on the 15th of May 259 teams raced (if the damn display is correct) 14th of June it was 326 (if calculated correctly and the display is not too wrong, wrong for sure, my TdS has 6 more teams than it shows) But that's one day, yesterday for example there were only +/- 180 teams. So as I said, it's really only Leso and Buh that know. Number of licence holders important too.

Anyway:

morning: Giro 10, logic would say 9 or 11.
afternoon: 14 or 16. As the self appointed spokesman for the afternoon I flatly refuse 15 again... let's have all THREE afternoon times for once for the GTs this year. So 14 or 16 for the TdF, the other one for the vuelta
early evening: 17+19 logic, but here IMO 18 again could be ok too (if afternoon 14) 17 has been used that often in passed years, while consistently having fewer users than 18 (and 19 that is never tried for GTs, tried for 1 cat 4 tour this year, TdS, and oh wonder, TdS had its first cat 4 Tour group split of the year, so proving that 19 is indeed a good time, so give it a GT this year, either TdF or Vuelta))
evening 20 or 21. Giro was 20, good numbers, but 21 has always good numbers too... logic would say 21, clearly say 21 actually.
late evening 22-24. Imo that is ONE time.. 22-24 was for the Giro, got 2 times, 23 would be the logic choice. Now of course we have a campaing for 24... Which would then be the 6th time again. But once again 23 wouldn't get a time... and IMO 23 actually should get one this time. And would have higher participation than 24 too. But since I see a lynching mob coming if I support no 24 but 23.... let's not do it. Let the hypocrites sleep in their corners... 24 is ok with me.

Anyway:

The 6 proposed times are no good. IF you go with 6, don't add 13+24 together just because Zentaron wants ONE of them. HEll, I'm all for having Zentaron ride (if possible at 14, but if he can't, okf he can lose his green jersey somewhere else) but let's not overdo it with 13+24 just because that's the 2 times he can... Has anybody besides him actually asked for this 13 time? And could not at any of the other likely times (9-11/14-16/17-19/20-21/22-24) ?I really see no need to add 13 (or 12 for that matter) now. The leso holiday argument doesn't hold either, since the Tour has usually less managers than the Giro...

9-14-17-20-22-24 is more logical. But 20-22-24 again actually is UGLY. Start rotating more consistently inside the "times" as well. 20/21 rotation, 22/23/24 rotation. But ok, since there is a campaign for 24.... with 6 times that probably would be the best.

But as should be obvious I really have doubts about how good it is to have 6 times now...

With 5 times
11-16-19-21-23(24) or
9-14-18-21-(23)24

1: would work well enough with 24 too.
2: 21 might be to isolated, if you make it 24 for the late evening. 21 would very likely be clearly the biggest group, by far. Not sure that is good. So with 5 times the first one probably better to shut up the 24 faction.

Short summary:

5 or 6: Let leso decide after consulting his participation and licence numbers. More those than forum feedback.
Don't cut ANY of the standard times
Don't add 12/13
Rotate inside the standard times as well. (doesn't mean never any repetition either, just not 3 times 10, 3 times 18 for the GTs)

[lesossies]

You cannot compare the TOUR Times with Giro or other times.
The Tour is in July, almost all people are in holiday or have a lot of free air activities.
So I wanted to make an early tour at 9h so people can race before to go out and a late tour at 24h for the night people.

In the evening 19-21 or 20-22 are both possible. I prefer 20-22, 18h was last year very bad, maybe too early for July.
So the have time between 9-19(20) for 2 tours.
10-11h for 3 intervals : 9-12-16-19 or 9-13-16-20 could be the mathematical choice.
I think the afternoon is the most difficult time, people are at beach or maybe look TDF on TV and if they look TDF it is between 15-17h.
15h maybe better than 16 but OK. You want changes.

Difficult choice.

We could start a poll.

[Robyklebt]

Of course you can compare the TdF times with the Giro times. Actually you have to.

10 Giro 116 in total

10: 18 teams 15,5%
15 16 teams13,8%
18: 20 teams 17,2%
20: 32 teams 27,6%
22: 30 teams 25,9%

TdF: 102 teams 12,1% less, -14 teams.

10: 20 teams:19,6% + 2 teams
14: 15 teams:14,7% -1 team
18: 11 teams: 10,8% -9 teams
20: 29 teams: 28,4% -1 team
22: 27 teams: 26,7% -3 teams

So a comparison shows us that the afternoon with another time, and evenings basically stayed the same. BIG loss at 18h actually a win at 10.

Which shows that the general pattern is not that different in July than it is in May. And the numbers from 2009 would show a smaller loss for the early evening for example. Cna be a freak occurrence too.

Holidays? Yes, and they are one of the reasons that there are less people riding the Tour than the Giro. Holiday at the beach? I'm not riding the TdF, point. Plus, the holiday argument is a huge generalization, not everybody actually goes on holiday in July... it's the time where more people are on holiday than in other seasons, but... in the end... there still are working people. School is out, so the early evening loses some of it's clients.. But for the rest? It's not all about holidays, like 3 of the 5 announced/possible 24 edition guys actually stated work as the reason for their wish for 24h. 2 others no reason yet. Hey, we could make a bet, you offer the Tour 24 times, and I bet more people who are not on holiday will be playing it than people who are on holiday.

Afternoon the most difficult choice? IMO it's the easiest. Make it according to the early evening. Which doesn't deserve to be cancelled because of one bad showing in 2010. But no 18h in that case agree. So is it 17h or 19h? Then do the afternoon according to that. 14 did ok the past 2 years, you never tried 16 for the TdF yet, the neighbouring times 15+17 though both have been tried at the TdF and did ok,. But yeah, 16 could be weaker than 14. But both should work. Make it according to the early evening and that's it. 14-17 or 16-19 . Or if you prefer 15 to 16, 15-19 works ok too. But decide the early evening first. 17 or 19? One tried, did ok, the other one ignored, IMO should do as well, probably better than 17.

Evening? The question is not 19-21 or 20-22, since 19 is EARLY evening. it's 21-23 or 20-22. Since 24 seems set...

The middle of the day time.. never get you. You are ultraconservative when it comes to change the times inside one "time zone"... morning, afternoon, early evening, it's almost always the same times, but then you like to throw in completely new times?

Anyway, don't understand much.

So I repeat, if you want to have more times for less people participating, ok, then lets make 10 times.
But don't ADD times and then CUT proven times like the early evening or the afternoon.

[sylvainmeteo]

I purpose : 10h/15h/20h/22h/23 or 24h

[Pirkio]

But roby..this year giro wasn't not for sprinter.. you know this well (no conti at giro)

sprinter team want to run tour, for win green shirt and some stages, so i think this year tour have more team of giro (or same number becouse is in July)

[olmania]

But roby..this year giro wasn't not for sprinter.. you know this well (no conti at giro)

sprinter team want to run tour, for win green shirt and some stages, so i think this year tour have more team of giro (or same number becouse is in July)

I want to let you know that in 2011, there are less (easy) sprint stages than the previous years.

[Philéas]

My opinion : only 5 times will be good

8H / 12H / 16H / 20H / 23H or 24H

But i think an another thing is more important : the real difficulty in each race/tour by the teams who do it.
Mais je pense qu'une autre chose bien plus importante devrait prise en priorité sur RSF : la réelle difficulté de la course/du tour en rapport avec les équipes inscrites pour cette même course/tour. Même course/tour et horaire différent = course de difficulté différente!

An example : a race/tour with 10 teams and with a low salary (average by all teams near 375K) is not the same like a race/tour with 20 teams and with a high salary (average by all teams near 400K). The difficulty it's not the same. We can try to change it for points and bonuses/finance (primes).
Un exemple : une course/tour avec 10 équipes d'engagées et des bas salaires en moyenne autour de 375K n'est pas du tout la même chose en terme de difficulté qu'une même course/tour à un horaire différent avec 20 équipes d'engagées et des salaires plus hauts autour de 400K en moyenne. Il faudrait vraiment trouver une solution pour adapter les points et les primes attribuées en fonction de la difficulté (en rapport avec les équipes engagées et leur coût d'inscription).

[Aixteam]

Pleaseee ! No TDF at 8h .. It would be a disaster, really .. Maybe 9-10 teams with 5 noobs .. No , 8h is bad !
9h is ok , as Leso said , it is holiday , so riding early would be good.
If we take 9 , we can't take 10-11 .. 12-13 are ridiculous times.
14 is a good one because just after the race, we can go to the TV to watch the real tour .. And last year, 14h worked very well.
Then I would say something like 19-21-24(23)

5 times are enough, really.

9-14-19-21-24

[Robyklebt]

Pro
Aix
!

But somebody buy me a new keyboard, eacht time 00I press shift on the left, it gives me 00, if 00I press it on the right, it's return first.
This really sucks
!

[olmania]

you want my top5 :

11/14/18/21(22)/24

[NoPikouze]

9/10
14
16/17
19/20
21/22
23/24

[Robyklebt]

ok, my ultimate post not last maybe, but ultimate

5 times
9-14-19-21-24 like aix said
6 times
9-14-17-20-22-24 OR 9-14-17-20-21-24.

20-21 is clearly the most popular time for rsf it seems. so having both would still work. even better than giving the late evening 2 times now, 22+24.