December Tour 2024 - Rules & Discussion

[flockmastoR]

Welcome to the December Tour 2024 Thread

This topic will introduce the rules for 2024 and discussions about the process/designs.

Designers submit their tours, managers vote in the forum, the winning tour will be ridden as catgory 3 tour in december. The runner up tour will be planned as a shortened January Tour, cat 2, in January.

Design rules:
-Length: 10-14 days: Maximum 13 days riding. (That means you can do a 13 day tour without rest day or a 14 day tour with 1 rest day)
-No extreme tour, extreme as in unbalanced towards one speciality, flat, pavé, mountains TT, extreme as in extreme climate in December
-1 tour per designer
-Number of riders 6-9
-Maximum 1 day with half stages

Don't post your tours here, but in separate thread that I will open on the 1st of October (It will be oppened on the first, I promise). This thread here is for the rules (see above) criticism of the rules, discussion of the proposed tours later on. Promotion of tours welcome, criticism too, the more the better.

Posting of the Tours in October, deadline is the 31st. Races that are posted in the early hours of November, before I open the voting will of course still be counted (Taka I am looking in your direction). But once the voting process started, I will not accept any late submissions.

Designer participation rules:
- Everyone is allowed to participate, there is currently no restriction for last year's winner, Andes designer

Voting procedure:
First round voting from the 2nd to the 9th November.

The number of votes a manager has depends on the number of tours submitted:
Number of submissions/2, then rounded down. That means:
1-3 tours=1 vote
4-5 tours=2 votes
6-7 tours=3 votes
8-9 tours=4 votes.
But capped at 4 votes, even if we get more than 9 tours the number of votes per manager won't increase.

Second round: Normally the first 2 teams will advance to the second round. If there is a tie for place 1 or 2 that would make it impossible to reduce the tours to just 2, all tours with the same votes get into the second round. Number of votes in the second round is 1.

If there is a draw in the second round, the tour that got more votes in the first round wins. If there's still a draw we ask ChatGPT how to proceed.

PS: I am sorry for the delay regarding the opening of the thread. In the new editor, it is possible to set the proposed tours in the preview status, that makes it easier for all to click through the stages and get the details. Please tell me the in-game name of your tour, so that I can set it in preview mode before the voting starts.

[Robyklebt]

Designer participation rules:
- Everyone is allowed to participate, there is currently no restriction for last year's winner, Andes designer

In protest against this non-restrictions rule I will boycot the December-Tour this year! Scandalous decsion!

[team fl]

4 tours to chose from. My votes went to the SEA tours (South East Asia). Although I don't dislike the profiles for the Long Island or the Appalachian Tour, both have bigger flaws than the SEA tours. And both flaws are flaws due to very subjective reasons: The Island hopping, despite interesting profiles, offers way too many intermediaries in my view and for the App Tour: My riders don't like to ride in cold weather. I looked it up for December and well, despite the climate warming thing, it's still not good. So, Vietnam and Thailand it is. Am I going to ride the December Tour? Most likely not, just because it's not a priority. Should you listen to my opinion about the December tour? Not at all, just don't do it. Make up your mind yourself, you lazy bastard. Although, if you read all this until now, you're not lazy probably. So sorry for that, but now it gets ridculous. Stop reading. Really, stop it. I have to go now.

[Chense]

First of all i wish good luck to all other contenders!

Now its time for some feedback from my side and comparing the tours (including mine hopefully fair)

First of all: My "votes" will be according to what is presented here. I didnt look up any stages in the editor.
The total vote will be:
Presentation / Balance: 15%
Flat / Hilly / Mountain Stages: 20%
Fits for my team: 10%

Second i will also vote my tour. Ill try to be fair compared to the other tours there, if i write more about it then others its just because i know it the best and also want to give you some information about my intention to design a stage this or that way.

Indian Ocean Paradise Tour

Presentation: 85/100
Nice map, some nice pictures in it, the climbs are clearly described in the stage description (for most stages) and there is a nice summary in the end. So its all in all a very good presentation. Only thing a lack a bit is the "surrounding" of the stages. Some nice stories or something would add the pepper here.

Flat Stages: 70/100
I would count here the stages 1, 6, 7, 9 as clear for sprinters. Stage 12 maybe a chance for them if they want it and stage 10 its the same but a little easier. What makes me give less points is: 6, 7 and 9 are just absolutely flat and nearly beyond each other. Stage 1 its just too far from the finish if there is more then a single sprintteam and later in the race maybe a group stage while like this its mostly an easy catch with fit sprintteams. 12 might be interesting indeed, while 10 i think is also to easy as the stages before dont really hit the flatriders i presume. In the end with in my eyes 5 secure sprints and one possible even 1 too much though ...

Hilly Stages: 85/100
Here i like the diversity pretty much - 4 is good for an escape or some gc action, 5 is the one for classics with sprint most likely, 8 can either be for some crazy attacks or for a domination of a strong team. 12 most likely for a hillsprinter (if some is there ... otherwise see flat stages) and 13 again for classics with good sprint i presume. What i dislike a little is that 12 and 13 are both that short in the end (okay makes for a high tempo race thats the good thing!) and that in my opinion that is opposite to the designer only 4 and 5 are really open for suicidal attacks. Would have liked one of them more in the second part of the tour.

Mountain Stages: 80/100
Generally i like them ... 2 / 3 is a nice double even if 3 is a bit too longish in the end in my opinion ... not as a mountain stage but as an very good oppurtunity to make it a chaos race by just bringing a strong team and ride half of the peloton out of time. Stage 11 is great - Could also be ridden like this in the alps. Only little thing i lack is that its all 3 mountain top finishes. So no chance where a really strong 80/70 or 85/65 could catch up for the stage in a long downhill end.

Balance: 85/100
6 possible sprint stages maybe one to much as i said before, GC should pretty clearly go to a mountain rider with some tt with those totally flat 32km, also classics should have fun there. So all in all its pretty well balanced in the end and everybody should have fun there - thats good!

Fits for team TTV: 65/100
As the mountains will be to steep for my young mountain rider even with his bit more ITT he wont have real chances in GC terms (as in most tours) it will be a bit more or less of suicidal attacks for me there. And here i dont see that much possibilities without totally killing myself. Those mountain stages allow for it but i will just have to much payback in gc then. So if this one would be the dec tour i would most likely come with a rather cheap team

All in all i like this tour and i wouldnt be harmed if this one would be ridden even if i did not vote for it. It looks well overthought and we clearly should see some nice race action in it, also the designer showed effort in presenting it well sooooo...

the total Vote for this tour is a very nice and well deserved: 79/100

Tour of Appalachia:

Presentation: 40/100
Only one picture in the beginning. All in all the description lacks of information. Every stage is just presented with one sentence and the information in there could also be seen in the profiles. Furthermore in some profile the max. height doesnt seem to fit as its just taken too low. Here it clearly lacks of passion for the tour itself for me. We cant even discover the rest day without looking in the editor.

Flat Stages: 60/100
Whats too much in the one before is here too less. We see here 3 absolutely clear sprints and a fourth one possible (with information would be easier to tell how possible). What is another big minus point for me is that the sprint stages are very comprimized in the middle of the tour (5, 7, 8 the clear ones, 9 the unclear one) and that those 3 clear ones are very similar. Short and flat. Stage 3 maybe a sprint chance too? We cant see ... so it will be taken into account as hilly stage.

Hilly Stages: 70/100
Stage 2 looks nice for some classics group with sprint, 3 looks good for hillsprinters, 4 again a classic group with sprint or the only one real chance for a suicidal attack for gc. Stage 6 then again hard to say ... i guess again classics with sprint coming in in a group of 10 or 15 riders. All in all the profiles look not bad but they force too less action i presume and are pretty controllable.

Mountain Stages: 70/100
Here its just too often ____/ for me. Stage 1, 12 and 13 are virtually the same with the only differences the length of the ___ part and the hardness of the /. Stage 11 i really like indeed. After the long and hard ITT this one could make it funny for several groups of riders! Would love to ride this stage even if i would have loved it a bit harder indeed as its only 96km long. Here some 180km bummer with 4000hm could have made it really funny.

Balance: 75/100
Sprinters will find their place here clearly so thats good!
Very long and also a little hilly ITT makes the gc fight interesting, in the end i would bet on a Huber winning it as the final climbs are not too hard (except Mt. Washington that is really hard) so we somehow dont see the opportunity for getting rid of them enough. Also the real superclassics wont find so much in this tour i guess.

Fits for team TTV: 55/100
Here it would be pretty clear for me. Bring my mountainrider, one supportclassic and the rest of the team as cheap as possible. Then it could even be a moneymakertour for me. But i dont see me having that much fun then ... still i would ride it in the end most likely.

I am sure that the designer has overthought what he is doing, but first the tour really lacks of passion for me ... its more like "yeah okay lets ride it" and maybe also because the designer isnt that experienced neither in designing nor in racing itself the tour lacks a bit of differences for me... so here i am sorry but ...

the total Vote for this tour is a: 63/100

Thai Tour:

Presentation: 80/100
No map, no summary at the end thats the minus points in the beginning. The rest of the presentation looks nice, all information that is needed is in, the climbs are all visible perfectly, we get the information about the mintact and the last km of the stage. Also some surrounding information is given. So all in all a very good presentation!

Flat Stages: 80/100
Here we see not the perfect, but a very nice mixture of sprint stages. 1 and 8 are clear sprinters stages. Stage 10 it really depends if there is a hillsprintersteam, but i daresay its a 95% thing for sprinters. Nearly the same counts for stage 12 as its a long way after the hill. Stage 4 could be a really nice fight! So there should be enough sprinterteams attending.
Only thing i lack a little would be (maybe instead of stage 10) one with a late single siebkm where sprintteams dont have that much time to reorganize but need a fast mass decision.

Hilly Stages: 85/100
Stage 2 is near to be very great - i like this short bumpy thing in the end really much, while stage 3 looks a little uninteresting to me with only those few interesting km in the end of the stage. Stage 5 and 9 i really like much again, while 5 gives more opportunities for superclassics or 80/70, stage 9 is more for the bigger classic group again. And then also 11 really cool again as it asks for action maybe even gc action with those short very hard climbs. Only thing i lack a very little (besides stage 3) is the one classics stage that really goes for action from km 1.

Mountain Stages: 75/100
As i counted 11 as a hilly stage there are only 2 real mountain stages left to talk about. Its number 7 and number 13. And here the mountain stages are the weakest part of the race for me as both of them dont ask for earlier tries. While the last one with its huge mountain finish is okay like that and will surely decide the gc besides the ITT, Number 7 is not really hard. Otherwise thats good as the ITT is also not very long.

Balance: 90/100
Yes i like that balance really much as i would say its 5-5-2 stages, which makes the start interesting for really several teams and also maybe one or 2 stages chances for mountain riders on the hilly stages. All in all the only thing that might be critizized a little from my side is that only 6/7 is a double of harder stages beyond each other, so i guess reg wont play to much of a role for helpers and that the race could somehow be blocked as every team will be able to start fit with many riders most of the time.

Fits for team TTV: 75/100
On the one hand 5 hilly stages + 1 easier mountain stages give me sure opportunities to ride here, otherwise i lack those 1 or 2 chances for real suicide (on the other hand might try it here again as mostly ill have a restday after). So here i would most likely attend with a balanced team with mountainrider, classic, 2 young classics and the rest some filling material.

This tour is very "round". It is good in all categories and the designer has clearly spent much time on thinking of a well balanced funny tour for all teams. Maybe one or two "edges" more would have been good as said before but all in all yes i would clearly ride this one also with some expenses and therefore ...

the total Vote for this tour that also got one of my votes is a: 81/100

Tour of Vietnam 2024:

Presentation: 90/100
Here i have to be honest - I guess this is the best presentation of the tour because it gives most information about the race and also about some stories besides. What after reading the other presentations should be changed and gives a little minus is: The map is not readable that well ... Here i should take a little more time next. The mountain presentation, here a combination of Tukh and me with the length, avg AND all km for all mountains would just give that little more information that makes it easier to read the profiles. And from Rad i should take the summary in the end. Clear all is written in the stage description, but this summarized in the end is nice.

Flat Stages: 75/100
Here we have one thing i really dislike a little ... 3 of the first 4 stages are flat. I wanted to give the north and the south at least nearly the same number of stages and knew i would find some great hilly things in the north so i decided for this but i am truly not absolutely happy with it.
What i am happy with is the variety of sprint stages. While 10 and 13 are just absolutely easy to get the other ones all proove some little problems that will make the sprintteams think about working together. While on stage 1 there is this double opportunity for siebs that also could divide the sprintteams itself a little because clearly some sprinters should be able to hang on most siebs, on stage 3 they will have to pay attention as on the one side there are those 2 siebkm far from finish and on the other side at least some kind of fit classic must be fit for the block of the short hill in the end. Last there is the long stage 4 where they will have time to reorganize but have to use their powers well as they could fall pretty far back on the climb 70km from finish

Hilly Stages: 90/100
Here i am for the first time while designing the dectour really happy. Stage 3 is a classical stage for a group of sprintstrong classics normally but the hill is pretty long after the siebkm so it might be hard to control.
Stage 5 is one of those middle mountain stages where really all can happen. Early attack by classics, GC attack, hard control and late attack, hard control and very reduced classics sprint ... i would bring an 80-70 if i had one.
Number 7 should be the typical fight superclassics vs classicteams. Last but not least i guess 11 / 12 is a nice double while 11 is the harder one and gives more opportunities for gaining more time in gc, 12 with this many many short climbs in the second half will need fast reaction when thinking what could happen next and could also damage teams that overexagarrated it on stage 11

Mountain Stages: 75/100
Here its a bit the same as with the Thai Tour. Its only 2 mountain stages. And only one of them is a mountain top arrival and that one is hard but not long and has a longer flat part before it. Here i had the chance to make it harder but for me anyway the following one is clearly the better one and i wanted that the leaders will start fit into that one. This second one i quite like. Its not a classic mountain stage but it is the big thing for some real action as i am quite sure that if mountain riders want to have ANY chance for gc they need to get much time there and that can only be done by attacking latest on the 2nd cat 1 maybe even already on the HC which on the other hand will lead to the fact that many classics could be burned early in the race.

Balance: 90/100
I guess its more or less the same as about the Thai Tour. All in all i think its very well balanced in terms of having something for every kind of rider. While pure mountain riders will have a hard time to win the gc against hubers with the quite long and not sooo hilly ITT this tour can be very open for stages because nearly any of the hilly and mountain stages can be won by either classics or mountain riders. Furthermore it forces attentive and aggresive riding. Bit of a minus in points here again as second week is clearly harder in gc terms then first week (but again here 5/6 could proove me wrong)

Fits for team TTV: 90/100
Okay here is maybe the point where i cant be totally fair in the ratings as the following should be clear: First point was clearly to design a tour that makes every team happy riding it. But on the other hand its also clear that i tried to design a tour i would have fun riding with. And as i am known as hyperaggressive sometimes and some might have seen my growing classicsteam its clear that many stages fit here very well for my riding style which on the other hand might annoy some times then

All in all here i would say the tour is this little less "round" then the Thai Tour thingy but it has instead this sneaky edges, so here i would really come with the full stuff of Mountain Rider + 4 classics i guess ... just have fun and spit on the money!

Thats why my total vote for this tour that got my second vote is: 84/100

So some honest words in the end of this "discussion": As you might have seen the most points go to my tour. But i would not clearly rate it much better then others but in terms of stage designing i see 3 tours really near to each other. 1 is unfortunately pretty far back for me but hey its the first try and its only MY opinion.

The more points for me are in the end based on the facts that I (and I not all!) like my presentation style, why others might see it another way. Same counts for the points of Fitting my team ... if we would take those out it would be a ranking where 3 tours are in 2,5points which is really near to each other.

Last but not least. I really had much fun designing this year again and i hope all other contenders also had! So have fun whichever DEC Tour we will ride

[Robyklebt]

Finally just a tiny bit of comment on our 4 proposals:

None really seems too good for sprinters. Maybe Indian Ocean the best one for that finally? 3 really easy ones it seems, the 4th one then easy too, if the sprinters are there. But the distribution of these stages is maybe the biggest weakness of the tour. A bunch in the middle.
Favorite stage: Stage 8, looks very nice. Actually my favorite stage off all the 4 proposals
Worst stage: 12. Somehow looks like a stage where nothing of interest in the GC will happen. (now of course if it's ridden we'll have lots of action in every edition... grr) So the last 2 stages somehow wasted GC wise.

Appalachia has 4 sprints too, suffers from a similar "all in the middle" affliction. Then lots 2 "naked" mountains to finish... Not enough info in the presentation for me generally.
Best stage 11. (But 1 as a start is kind of interesting too)
Worst stage; Stage 10. Overly long. Ok, makes Reg very relevant, which is nice, but in combination with Mt Washington, it restricts the possible GC winner to very few riders. Too hard for classics with TT, so it's high TT climber with reg that wins. Quite easily, even on Mt Washington just tempo the whole climb and he won't lose as much as he won in the 50+ TT

Vietnam: 4 sprints again, here better distribution. Even if the break from 3 to 10 is probably too long for me really. Stage 3 then not really automatic at all.
Best stage; Stage 5. But only for the result it will have, without this it would have been rather backloaded, with this, the probably most important GC stage of all finally, Seen as a whole, the Tour lives from what stage 5 will offer.
Worst stage: Stage 5. By far the stage I dislike most in all 4 tours. A fucking circuit. An 11 km circuit done 500 times or so. Don't like it, don't like it at all in a stage race. 11km might be too short anyway, people overtaken, and somehow it's lazy designing (I'm aware that Chense probably spent lots of time on the tour and that Vietnam doesn't offer all that many mountain stages with mountains close together) .
Best presentation here, but I'd prefer not having the length and classification in bold in the stage title, put it below on a separate line, so that Donkey can find it easier, not in the middle of a line.

Thailand:
5 sprints, but in the end 3 of them might just be a bit too difficult, so only 2 safe ones... stage 4 with the cluster of climbs 50 km from the end might just be too hard. The one with the golden Triangle normally can be a sprint in a tour, but with stage 4 being pro hill sprinters... more hill sprinters present, despite it being only 1 km, doesn't look bad for hill sprinters at all. Stage 12 then again 50 km from teh goal, but some rather heavy stuff before, sprinters already having to bring back their sprinters a few times... 3 times a hill sprinter has good chance, looks more like bringing Bucquoy than Chassot for me, and then riding accordingly. So despite having the most sprint stages I fear the balance is just a bit off.
Rest, is a bit backloaded. Stages and GC. GC 6+7, then 11+13.
Best stage 11 (although I like 13 too, 13 the best final stage of all 4)
Worst stage: 10. Cut that damn golden Triangle!!!
This Tour actually might be the best balanced for GC, TT vs climbing, but didn't analyze everything too well. Just a suspicion.

Unfortunately dumb Donks forgot to vote in the first round, after analyzing the tours he was tired and postponed voting, despite deciding. Then simply forgot. But voted in the second round.

[Chense]

Congratulations to Radunion for his win! I admit its a great tour and i will be really happy to ride it.
Hopefully we will see big fields and much action

As i as Runner-Up will have to cancel 2 stages (+restday) for the January tour i already took my decision - And i am pretty sure many people wont like it because it will change the character of the tour totally.

1st stage to be cancelled: Stage 3
2nd stage to be cancelled: Stage 6

Some short clarification:
Cutting the ITT totally changes the tour but fits best the intention. It should be a tour that most likely will be full of action. With the long ITT without a restday after the days afterwards would be a pure reg-fight in my opinion. In addition it also was intended to make a long tour where not automatically Mountain Riders and / or Hubers are the big favos. I think by this cutting the intention is followed most as i guess now it will be for 80-70 or even very strong classic riders.

[zizou]

Congratulations to Radunion for his win! I admit its a great tour and i will be really happy to ride it.
Hopefully we will see big fields and much action

As i as Runner-Up will have to cancel 2 stages (+restday) for the January tour i already took my decision - And i am pretty sure many people wont like it because it will change the character of the tour totally.

1st stage to be cancelled: Stage 3
2nd stage to be cancelled: Stage 6

Some short clarification:
Cutting the ITT totally changes the tour but fits best the intention. It should be a tour that most likely will be full of action. With the long ITT without a restday after the days afterwards would be a pure reg-fight in my opinion. In addition it also was intended to make a long tour where not automatically Mountain Riders and / or Hubers are the big favos. I think by this cutting the intention is followed most as i guess now it will be for 80-70 or even very strong classic riders.

Totally dislike cutting the ITT. 11 stages without an ITT…
But of course your decision

[Dagestan]

Congratulations to Radunion for his win! I admit its a great tour and i will be really happy to ride it.
Hopefully we will see big fields and much action

As i as Runner-Up will have to cancel 2 stages (+restday) for the January tour i already took my decision - And i am pretty sure many people wont like it because it will change the character of the tour totally.

1st stage to be cancelled: Stage 3
2nd stage to be cancelled: Stage 6

Some short clarification:
Cutting the ITT totally changes the tour but fits best the intention. It should be a tour that most likely will be full of action. With the long ITT without a restday after the days afterwards would be a pure reg-fight in my opinion. In addition it also was intended to make a long tour where not automatically Mountain Riders and / or Hubers are the big favos. I think by this cutting the intention is followed most as i guess now it will be for 80-70 or even very strong classic riders.

I fully agree that an open tour is more fun than a tour that would most likely be won by a defensive team with a Huber-leader.

Vietnam actually sounds tempting to me now without that long TT that would force my lower reg leaders to choose between GC placement and stage wins. This might just be the first long tour (>8 days) that I ever ride.

[Bugatti]

1st stage to be cancelled: Stage 3
2nd stage to be cancelled: Stage 6

i voted for that tour only Very good design!
But now with cancelling the ITT, as TTV says, it changed everything. So now it s not the Tour that i would vote for
I got a TT-Rider and he wont get much chances to ride, thats now one less for him, a bit bad but not my decission.

[flockmastoR]

Congratulation to the winner Radunion for his Indian Ocean Paradise Tour. Please tell us your prefered starting time for the December schedule.

Also congrats to Chense for his Tour of Vietnam 2024, maybe you can change the name and just cut the year, such that it fits in January. You already mentioned your cuts, but you can also decide on a starting time.

Thanks for everybody contributing in the contest and voting/discussions.

[drei.zehn]

1st stage to be cancelled: Stage 3
2nd stage to be cancelled: Stage 6

i voted for that tour only Very good design!
But now with cancelling the ITT, as TTV says, it changed everything. So now it s not the Tour that i would vote for
I got a TT-Rider and he wont get much chances to ride, thats now one less for him, a bit bad but not my decission.

+1

[Radunion]

My preferred starting time is 20:00, Which leaves you with the choice between early evening and what I call late night. 18:00 I think has bad participation numbers. Maybe somebody will tell you if 22:00 or 23:00 makes more sense for the late riders.

And of course, thank you for all the votes. I will tell you afterward if the races turned out as intended when designing.

[Chense]

Guys i understand your critizism! And i know there would be another option - The question is if it is allowed ...

If i could swap stages afterwards i would see a possibility to keep it (nearly) what it was before:

Would mean the following:

Cut stages 2 and 4 - Swap stage 3 where the rest day was so the tour would be in the end:

1, 5, 6, 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13

Question 1:
- Would you guys discussing here find think it is a CLEARLY better solution?

Question 2:
- Is that okay for the organizer?

[drei.zehn]

My preferred starting time is 20:00, Which leaves you with the choice between early evening and what I call late night. 18:00 I think has bad participation numbers. Maybe somebody will tell you if 22:00 or 23:00 makes more sense for the late riders.

And of course, thank you for all the votes. I will tell you afterward if the races turned out as intended when designing.

Can we have a 13:00 early evening edition?

[drei.zehn]

Guys i understand your critizism! And i know there would be another option - The question is if it is allowed ...

If i could swap stages afterwards i would see a possibility to keep it (nearly) what it was before:

Would mean the following:

Cut stages 2 and 4 - Swap stage 3 where the rest day was so the tour would be in the end:

1, 5, 6, 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13

Question 1:
- Would you guys discussing here find think it is a CLEARLY better solution?

Question 2:
- Is that okay for the organizer?

I like the second version a lot more than the first. Like Bugatti said, I would not vote for a tour without the ITT.

But of course you are the one who put all the work in, so it should be your decision

[zizou]

Guys i understand your critizism! And i know there would be another option - The question is if it is allowed ...

If i could swap stages afterwards i would see a possibility to keep it (nearly) what it was before:

Would mean the following:

Cut stages 2 and 4 - Swap stage 3 where the rest day was so the tour would be in the end:

1, 5, 6, 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13

Question 1:
- Would you guys discussing here find think it is a CLEARLY better solution?

Question 2:
- Is that okay for the organizer?

Better solution...CLEARLY ;D

[Robyklebt]

It's really up to Chense, the Donkey happily has no opinion!

My preferred starting time is 20:00, Which leaves you with the choice between early evening and what I call late night. 18:00 I think has bad participation numbers.

Can't let that go, even if it wasn't your main point and AAD will most likely decide to go for 20-22/23 and not 18-20 (last edition at 20 is early indeed). 18h with bad participation numbers is just misinformation. It had a bad stretch over the summer, for the rest of its history 18h is a rather unproblematic time. In November doing perfectly fine. Tipaza had 12 teams, (at 21 only 8) one day races Kisoro-Kabale was bad with 4, the rest had 10-15, with the ITT at 18 teams. (Today's race, Presa Allende looks bad too, 4 for the moment, but might change, still a while to go).

[Radunion]

It's really up to Chense, the Donkey happily has no opinion!

My preferred starting time is 20:00, Which leaves you with the choice between early evening and what I call late night. 18:00 I think has bad participation numbers.

Can't let that go, even if it wasn't your main point and AAD will most likely decide to go for 20-22/23 and not 18-20 (last edition at 20 is early indeed). 18h with bad participation numbers is just misinformation. It had a bad stretch over the summer, for the rest of its history 18h is a rather unproblematic time. In November doing perfectly fine. Tipaza had 12 teams, (at 21 only 8) one day races Kisoro-Kabale was bad with 4, the rest had 10-15, with the ITT at 18 teams. (Today's race, Presa Allende looks bad too, 4 for the moment, but might change, still a while to go).

Why do you want to use numbers to counter my subjective observations? But seriously, there might be a Summer/Winter difference I do not consider. My wish for 20 h makes it, of course, harder with just 2 evening editions.

[Chense]

My wish will be 19 as always btw

[ATB - Racing]

cut the TT, times irrelevant!!!
stick to your initial plan!

without that TT i would have voted for your tour instead of Radunions

[Bugatti]

Can we have a 13:00 early evening edition?

Sounds good for me too. Not often used that time, but we should try it. 12:00 would be possible too, if some others want to test this time too. So i can use my "Mittagspause" to play