Winter Calendar 2016-17 : Calendar and Discussion

[cataracs]

Another question, who decides the number of riders on a tour?

[luques]

Normally 9, unless it is specified differently by the designer.

[Pokemon Club]

Novo Banco miss your stage 2 of Portugal

[luques]

So Marmara Tour and Cuba for the 4days tour.
Puerto Rico and Guadalupe for the 5 days.
Aoetearoa sure for 6 days and 1vs1 between Argentina and Rio (Brasil vs Argentina )

[Robyklebt]

I'm here again.

To tell you how impressed I am with this whole thing.

So we have a nice plan posted, some comments, not many, as unfortunately could be expected. And now we have the calendar for November online and it's really interesting and mind blowing. Absolutely amazing stuff.

In the plan there were 4 cat 3 fantasy one day races:

- GP Lanzarote
- GP Brescia
- San Benito- Matagalpa
- Novo Hamburgo-Caxias do Sul

NONE of those 4 races is in the calendar. Not one.

Instead we have 4 other cat 3 fantasy races
- Vigo Santiago de Compostela.
- Villalba GP
- San Francisco classic
- Penang Cycling Cup

2 of those races have never been ridden before, 2 have been ridden once (2011/2013) and now they are category 3.

They are in in the place of the following races:
GP Brescia: Ridden every year since 2007. Would have been the tenth edition. Of all the old fantasy classics it's the GP Brescia you kick out? No Bielso Biala, not Mosell (ok, probably the same age)
Lanzarote: Since 2010
San Benito Since 2012
Novo Hamburgo Since 2013

Old races can die out, no problem, but a more proper way of doing it would be announcing it, races a, b, c and d won't be classics anymore, any complaints, then depending on the number of complaints go through with it or not. (most likely no complaints since almost nobody checks)
Or maybe those races will come in december?
Be it as it may, I have an interesting question:

WHY DID YOU BOTHER MAKING A PLAN IF YOU THEN PUT ONLINE SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT?

Another one:

WHAT DID YOU DRINK, SMOKE OR INJECT TO THINK THOSE 4 RACES SHOULD BE CATEGORY 3 CLASSICS? (I seriously hope you were high when you made those decisions. Sober and this..... bad sign)



But ok, let's see what else is exciting in this November calendar:

Category 2 classics maybe?

From 4 increased to 9. Ok, why not? A bit too much maybe, but Oh, the 4 announced ones are not in Insted 9 races that will be raced for the first time! So "classics" for you means: Races that are raced the first time? It sure looks that way. The unworthy classics kicked were ridden since 2010 (with a break in 2012), 2012, 2014 and ? (can't find Feira Arempebe, maybe was a first year "classic" too, with pavé.

Then let's see: One of the complaints by me, supported by FL this time was: Too many pavé races, rather than have lots of pavé in the offseason make sure that we have regular pavé in the season too. You answer 1: I like pavé ( A hint, it's not about you or what you like) Answer 2: Make all the pavé races category 2. We have 4 races with pavé, at this point, all of them are category 2 now. All of them ridden the first time too of course. Wouldn't be classics otherwise.

Question time again:

WHY DID YOU BOTHER MAKING A PLAN IF YOU THEN PUT ONLINE SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT?

WHY DO YOU MAKE IT A DISCUSSION THREAD IF THEN YOU IGNORE WHAT OTHERS SAY ANYWAY? WHY NOT MAKE IT AN ANNOUNCEMENT THEN?

Making it an announcement thread, with no answers possible wouldn't make the calendar better (it's really bad at this point, sorry), but at least we'd have some honesty.

So what now?
Answer the bolded questions.

[Pokemon Club]

WHY DID YOU BOTHER MAKING A PLAN IF YOU THEN PUT ONLINE SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT?

WHY DO YOU MAKE IT A DISCUSSION THREAD IF THEN YOU IGNORE WHAT OTHERS SAY ANYWAY? WHY NOT MAKE IT AN ANNOUNCEMENT THEN?

1-5) One day race :
Of course it isn't totally fix, but not all. Except race as Bielsko-Biala, Bolkow, Mosell Cup, Lanzarote, Brescia and Letzbuerg, all others races can be change in the calendar. After I would like to change Continents each 2 weeks, and concentrate all european, american, african, asian, and oceanian races together. I can keep some space for new design, there is no need to hurry to put the races in calendar after.

Ah, and while I haven't seen through all the cat 1 one day races.... some sound very familiar, probably ridden the second or even third time... I'd rather have new ones in those cases...

Well first the main idea didn't change, we switching continent all 2 weeks. But it is you which make change my mind. First Hainan in calendar change a bit the end of october. So I red again the posts here, check again and again all races in database I just start modifying the cat 1 which was already ride, then I just thaught that some race looks not bad, sometimes better than what I chose first and deserve a chance to be ride too. So thanks Donkey to help me to make evolve the plan !

[Robyklebt]

Can I get a more serious answer too or is that it?
"That's what I decided, so that's it" to paraphrase it.

[Pokemon Club]

Can I get a more serious answer too or is that it?
"That's what I decided, so that's it" to paraphrase it.

A more serious answer ? I just feeling it could be better finally to do the calendar like that. I show it at Luques, he was ok. I post it in calendar the last week-end. No one react so program it 3 days after because we was already late in the month and maybe some people are off of RSF and could be hard to put form.
And you feel it isn't democratic ? Well I can do nothing if only luques, Donkey, FL and Coro have some interest in calendar stuff and give their feelings.

[team fl]

There are two problems:

1.) you open a discussion when you give a shit about it eventually, even about the "final" draft you posted, and

2.) people joining the discussion used time and effort to help you about the off season calender, and you just ignored them eventually.

There is also a minor third problem about C4F tradition, etc. but that's sentimental crap. Just do it yourself next time without making others do work for nothing but giving the Impression that it's a "team" effort. That's still not the right thing to do imho but at least all that help save valuable time.

[Pokemon Club]

There are two problems:

1.) you open a discussion when you give a shit about it eventually, even about the "final" draft you posted, and

2.) people joining the discussion used time and effort to help you about the off season calender, and you just ignored them eventually.

There is also a minor third problem about C4F tradition, etc. but that's sentimental crap. Just do it yourself next time without making others do work for nothing but giving the Impression that it's a "team" effort. That's still not the right thing to do imho but at least all that help save valuable time.

Ignored who ? Poeple mostly share their opinions about tours, if I just ignored them it is simply :
- No Hainan
- Mosell Cup should be ride at the same time than Sachsen
- Tour des Pavés in November
- January Tour cut at 8 days max
- 2 or 3 fantasy tours more during that period too

But well, ignoring people is the best, it is why I always said, and after it is what you always did before cancel a nationality

[team fl]

Like the Donkey said before. Instead od dealing properly with other posts you provide only bullshit answers.

Its not about detail changes. its about ignoring the final result of a community process by deciding single handidly without communicating.

And your NC reference is so stupid its not even worth goiing nto it further. If you have a problem with that use the right thread.

[Pokemon Club]

Like the Donkey said before. Instead od dealing properly with other posts you provide only bullshit answers.

Its not about detail changes. its about ignoring the final result of a community process by deciding single handidly without communicating.

Don't make me laugh. The community process was fully respect about tours. About one day race It was choose arbitrarily since the start, I change it arbitrarily too, always said that nothing was fix for that, and no one really propose something about that. If you was really interested, you could asking me directly and you knew how the stuff was at that moment, it isn't else if I was off during a long period of the game. If you never or stop showing about that anymore, I can do nothing for you.

[Robyklebt]

About one day race It was choose arbitrarily since the start, I change it arbitrarily too, always said that nothing was fix for that, and no one really propose something about that.

Choose arbitrarily since the start? Ok, but if you call that arbitrarily then everything is. Including the Tours. And offering the GTs was an arbitrary decision too. This arbitrary doesn't seem to be much of an argument to me.
And you actually said some stuff was fix: Bolkow etc. Brescia was in that category too. Now deleted. 2 questions here, 1, why did you decide those were fix? And second, why did you change your mind on Brescia?
No one really proposes something about that? Wrong again. I did. I proposed to cut old "classics" in October. One was cut, good. I proposed to have less pavé races. FL agreed. You made them category 2 as an answer.

In the end we just have different opinions about your job. You think you have the right to decide by yourself. I don't. Doesn't matter. What will happen now is:

1) I demand any RKL races to be cut from the calendar. I refuse to have my work be part of this travesty (The sad thing is that the calendar is very bad too, doubt you are interested to know why, since you just do it your way anyway) Since you claim the right for yourself to decide the calendar, I claim the right to decide if my races can be used.
2) As a calendar mod I will delete all your attempts to post a "winter calendar thread" for 2017. It is my right as a calendar mod to decide what is posted and what not. And I might make use of my right even for 2016.

[Robyklebt]

Your Dec. Tour vote thread deleted, as you might notice. The right decision obviously.

You need to learn to work together with others, that poll you put on another example how you aren't able to do that at this moment. You once again changed something unilaterally, without consulting, or informing anybody.

[luques]

Your Dec. Tour vote thread deleted, as you might notice. The right decision obviously.

You need to learn to work together with others, that poll you put on another example how you aren't able to do that at this moment. You once again changed something unilaterally, without consulting, or informing anybody.

Nah I must confess that it was me changing,because the original intention was to make the vote changeable and not fixed. Especially because it wasn't written that the vote couldn't be changed later.

[Robyklebt]

Not sure what you are talking about....

I'm talking about how many options btw. (But would have deleted and remade that poll on principle)

[Robyklebt]

We've beaten this to death basically, but just wanted to make one more point about Pokes claim

About one day race It was choose arbitrarily since the start, I change it arbitrarily too, always said that nothing was fix for that, and no one really propose something about that.

Just can't let it stand as it is. Because it's wrong. When making the winter calendar there was always some sort of consensus building. Of course in the end the final decision was with leso, but the few proposals he got were taken into account. That doesn't mean doing always what others say.Of course some races were made classics by leso "arbitrarily". Some were dropped arbitrarily. But in general there was an effort to find a consensus.

So that's VERY different from what we had this year. Yes, Poke posted the new plan on the 24th in the November thread. Could have posted it here too, but ok, not sure I would have seen it here ,was rather busy. FL didn't comment either, nobody else seems interested anyway. So ok? No, not ok. The big question is if complaints would have changed anything. My educated guess is a clear NO. See what happened with pavé:

Pokeproposal: 4 pavé races
Donkey: Is a bit too much, rather have 2 every month, instead of 4 now and none in other months, as often happens
Poke: I like pavé, like ASO liked stupid mountain stages. So they are in..
FL: I agree with Donkey.

So what does Poke then do? He doesn't just keep the 4 pavé races, he makes all of them cat 2 too. So instead of the old consensus building we're used to, we get a power play a la r/Quick. Let's show them who the boss is. They want less pavé? All pavé cat 2+ now. HA! So I doubt anything would have changed if I had seen the new list on the 24th and commented on it immediately.

Another comment, this time on something FL said:

There is also a minor third problem about C4F tradition, etc. but that's sentimental crap.

Disagree. Not just sentimental crap. Races can die, no problem, depending on the race small problem or angry donkey, but can happen. New races emerge. Normal. Of course when a favorite race dies, we cry sentimentally. But what happened here is not a death here and there, it's a fucking massacre. Not killing a race, a whole genocide. It's the scale that makes it a problem, it comes across as another power play: I don't care for the work others did in the last 10 years, I'm in charge now, I change everything, I do as I want, I know what's best.

So don't give us crap about "democratically","what can I do if nobody cares". Show us you are able to do the job (I of course doubt your ability), show us you are able to work with others, or give up the job. (I'm already trying to get you deposed behind the scenes!!!)

So November was a complete absolute utter failure. Show us you can do better in December.
In the meantime again, I request you take out all the races designed by RKL from the calendar. Only one, Penang whatever, so far. . Please take that out. RKL races don't want to be associated in any way with this calendar until you either give up the job (better today than tomorrow) or convince the Donkey you can do a decent job (doubtful, not because the Donkey is close minded of course). Until then refrain from putting any RKL races in the calendar.

As for the dec tour. Very simple. MY original idea. Poke showed an incredibly inability to work with others. I want to have a say when it comes to the Dec tour. With Poke in dictator mood, I lose that ability. So I simply will NOT allow him to open threads regarding the dec tours. 2016-2116. I will abuse my power as calendar mod to make sure I still have a say with regards to the dec tour, modalities etc.

[MG Technogym]

Dont know which is the best topic to ask that. But wyh are some random fantasy races Category 2 or even 3 when some real races are only category 2? Shouldnt the real races be in a higher category than the fantasy races except some really traditional reaces like Andes or that Sachsen Pavé Tour. Is this intentional? And when yes, why?

[Pokemon Club]

Dont know which is the best topic to ask that. But wyh are some random fantasy races Category 2 or even 3 when some real races are only category 2? Shouldnt the real races be in a higher category than the fantasy races except some really traditional reaces like Andes or that Sachsen Pavé Tour. Is this intentional? And when yes, why?

Good topic for the question.
It is the offseason so it is normal to have some one day races cat 2-3 to balance with tours, essentially for the classment. 95% of the real races we draw are at least cat 2 so it isn't a problem.

[MG Technogym]

Dont know which is the best topic to ask that. But wyh are some random fantasy races Category 2 or even 3 when some real races are only category 2? Shouldnt the real races be in a higher category than the fantasy races except some really traditional reaces like Andes or that Sachsen Pavé Tour. Is this intentional? And when yes, why?

Good topic for the question.
It is the offseason so it is normal to have some one day races cat 2-3 to balance with tours, essentially for the classment. 95% of the real races we draw are at least cat 2 so it isn't a problem.

Yeah offseason means no big races....it makes no sense to revalue random fantasy races just because they are no real races. Like that the Villaba GP (just for example) is more worth than a stage win at the Tour de Limousin...or on the same level as Brabantse Pijl. That's just ridicoulos in my opinion. We dont need to award the same amount of points in the off season as in the real season. Every real race should be worth more than a fantasy race! (execption are of course some traditional races)

[Robyklebt]

Dont know which is the best topic to ask that. But wyh are some random fantasy races Category 2 or even 3 when some real races are only category 2? Shouldnt the real races be in a higher category than the fantasy races except some really traditional reaces like Andes or that Sachsen Pavé Tour. Is this intentional? And when yes, why?

Good topic for the question.
It is the offseason so it is normal to have some one day races cat 2-3 to balance with tours, essentially for the classment. 95% of the real races we draw are at least cat 2 so it isn't a problem.

Yeah offseason means no big races....it makes no sense to revalue random fantasy races just because they are no real races. Like that the Villaba GP (just for example) is more worth than a stage win at the Tour de Limousin...or on the same level as Brabantse Pijl. That's just ridicoulos in my opinion. We dont need to award the same amount of points in the off season as in the real season. Every real race should be worth more than a fantasy race! (execption are of course some traditional races)

Yes, no need to award the same amount of points in the off season. And it's not the same amount of points, there's much more points to be gained in the season than now. But as Poke rightly (!!!!) said, it's to balance out a bit the points you can gain in stage races and one day races. IMO we should have much less cat 2 stage races (but then I'm close minded so my opinion gets ignored, that's proof of my closemindedness), Andes and Decembertour cat 3, ok, maybe pavé tour in January, then cat 2 for January tour and Sachsen. That's it, all other winter stage races cat 1. Balance it out downwards if you like.

(execption are of course some traditional races)

I requote that. Because that's how it was until last winter. Not this year, Poke decided to cut all traditional one day races November and most of December now too. He didn't feel it necessary to explain the reasons for his decision though (according to him he did, it seems I'm to blame for this mess: "So thanks Donkey to help me to make evolve the plan !".)

So the situation now is indeed highly unfortunate. We have no winter classics, traditional fantasy races that have a history and thus motivate managers moret AND give more points. We just have as you called it (I have to add that, otherwise it's just further proof of my close mindedness) random races at category 2 and 3. Without a sensible explanation. And I ask for the probably 10th time now: Why this one day races calendar? Why no more of the old classics? Stay tuned for another non-answer

[Rasmussen]

Yes, no need to award the same amount of points in the off season. And it's not the same amount of points, there's much more points to be gained in the season than now. But as Poke rightly (!!!!) said, it's to balance out a bit the points you can gain in stage races and one day races. IMO we should have much less cat 2 stage races (but then I'm close minded so my opinion gets ignored, that's proof of my closemindedness), Andes and Decembertour cat 3, ok, maybe pavé tour in January, then cat 2 for January tour and Sachsen. That's it, all other winter stage races cat 1. Balance it out downwards if you like.

Well written. I got exactly the same opinion.

[Pokemon Club]

Anyway, not impossible to ask luques a parallel bareme for winter, I think it isn't difficult to add that after all important things are fix.

And a "traditional/historical race" is different than a "fix forever race". I like a lot some traditionals races as Mosell Cup, GP Brescia or Tour de Herne but why these races should be untouchable ?

[Robyklebt]

You realize you're not actually answering the question?

[Novo Banco - PT]

We need to give a chance for new races, but we should respect the traditional races