July 2023

[Gipfelstuermer]

Final PDF
July 2023

[Hansa]

Would prefer to have a 19/20H tdf i know its unlikely we will get that here because we had giro at 19h already and participation is still not enough for 5 editions but i still want to mention it here just in case we finde 10 more people to demand 19/20H editions^^

[Gipfelstuermer]

Some comments for July:

Tour de France: Pretty clear 4 editions because Giro participation was good but not huge. Pretty clear to switch times as well. 10-15-18-21 after Giro was 9-14-19-22. If there are multiple players asking for a change and they have an overwhelming majority, we can change times of course.

Parallel Programme: Same issue as with every Grand Tour. But it was actually OK during Giro with Norway (4 days) and Dunkerque (6 days) in parallel I thought. On average 5 teams in those parallel tours. Of course one day races suffer then... but offering no parallel tours at all is also not good for those who can't ride TDF... so I would again offer parallel tours, again only 2 editions per parallel tour. I suggest Austria (5 days) because we have some Austrian players in the community. I also suggest Torres Vedras (4 days) because it fits in neatly and we used to have a Portuguese group as well. They are not very active anymore... but who knows... during TDF they might wake up? In general optimistic Gip hopes for some comebackers/newbies during TDF. After all, it's by far the biggest cycling event in terms of attention from the crowds.... It used to create a jump in player numbers for C4F, too. But I am not sure if that was due to paid advertisement by Buhmann or just because TDF brings so much attention to cycling in general... So, in addition to Austria and Torre Vedras, I also suggest Wallonie (5 days but only 2 overlap with TDF). So 11 days with parallel tours. At the Giro it was 10 days. Slightly more, so maybe too much? Better only 2 or only 1 parallel tour? If managers, who are not riding TDF, have an opinion on the parallel programme, please tell me. Comments like "I would ride Austria, but only if offered in the afternoon" or "I would ride Austria, but certainly no time for Torre Vedras and Wallonie" can help. Then I would adjust the parallel programme.

Pologne: I suggest only 3 editions because it's parallel to San Sebastian. Similar to the situation with UAE/Omloop in February.

[lennylenny]

Would prefer 19 or 20 TdF aswell, but 21 is also fine for me and 18 could still be an option

[Robyklebt]

Visegrad stuff, Torre Vedras, other 1.2 one day races IMO cat 1. By making it cat 2 you devalue the real cat 2 races in comparison to these. Having them at cat 2 would be a major policy change.

Then 3 parallel stage races?

Giro parallel: weekends in green

12 teams riding Dunkerque
11-13-7-10-11-10 the 6 parallel days, with 3 races not starting.

Norway: 9 teams
11-7-11 on the 3 days parallel to the Giro.

Parallel to the Giro without parallel tour:

16-20-23-28-26-20-20 The first Giroweek basicall, won't do all. Seems later the numbers were a bit lower.

Conclusion: Expected more managers active if there was a tour, wasn't really the case, 19-25 during Dunkerque, 16-28 in the preceding week. Ignore Norway since that would need to be compared to the time right before I think, where participation seemed to be lower too.
Stage races=more active managers probably is still true, but if the numbers are that low the low turnout for 1 day races probably makes some managers decide not to start at all? They prefer no race than spend a race in a 2-3 man group? With higher overall numbers I think the boost by the stage races would still be there, if the numbers are as low as they are now, seems not, then the positive effect of stage races is nullified by the unattractiveness of the one day races?

So Donks opinion:

I would have proposed 0-1 in parallel. And still thinks that's better, even more now actually. Especially Torre Vedras simply not needed IMO. 3 stage races parallel with our numbers... if anything it will frustrate the 1 day racers I fear.
And then I'd think one of the 2 others isn't really needed either.
Numbers up during the Tour used to be mostly by advertisement Buh once said, when I told him not to worry, that people always show up for the tour, he said that's because he pays...A very few of course possible remember the game then and try it again, but wouldn't count on a huge increase.

San Sebastian-Poland: Last year 4-4 which gave us 4 very small classic groups... maybe 4-3 or even 3-3 is better. Saturday-Sunday always weak, but presumably people more flexible, if it makes us have groups with 10 teams for San Sebastian... why not try? But on the other hand think we should keep 4 one day races... always.

Ah, fully support 10-15-18-21 of course, change from the Giro! For the afternoon 15 happens to be the time I can play best during the TdF anyway.

[bergwerk cycling]

3 Tours with 2 races ok i think ... But no tour in the afternoon? 1 in the morning. 1 at lunch (why that) and 4 ( from 17-22) in the evening.
Would be nice if there would be 2 morning/ 2 afternoon/ 2 evening tours!
Thks

[Tukhtahuaev]

All 3 of these parallel tours definitely seems to be a little bit too much. Personally think it should only be Austria.

[FSG Sattelpuper]

I can only ride TdF at 22.

I will prefer all 3 little tours (afternoon, evening) , if I can´t ride TdF.

[Carry Rhodan]

Would prefer a 20 TdF Edition.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Some new real one day races designed.Without those would really be almost just fantasy parallel to TDF.









Slag om Norg cancelled in the meantime. Was one reason not to ride Torre Vedras (ok-ish parallel programme with at least one cat 2 race), so now thinking about leaving the small tour in with just fantasy races for 9 days in a row otherwise... if I understood bergwerk correct, he'd also be happy to ride it in the afternoon, correct? Of course 2 morning / 2 afternoon / 2 evening is not going to happen for the small parallel tours (2 evening way too little as 20-22 is the best time). But if some teams tell me, they want to ride it a specified time, of course that can be done! Ideally, you also design it

[Gipfelstuermer]

Would prefer to have a 19/20H tdf i know its unlikely we will get that here because we had giro at 19h already and participation is still not enough for 5 editions but i still want to mention it here just in case we finde 10 more people to demand 19/20H editions^^

Would prefer 19 or 20 TdF aswell, but 21 is also fine for me and 18 could still be an option

Would prefer a 20 TdF Edition.

I do not dislike 20h TdF. 20h is a great time for participation. But how to combine it for 2 evening editions? 20-22 then? Wouldn't some early evening teams (early evening meaning 17-19h window) be annoyed with that? Then 19-21 or 19-22 would be the best compromise again?

Just trying to figure out what's best for the evening as a whole (17-23 window basically) with 2 editions.

[Hansa]

Would prefer to have a 19/20H tdf i know its unlikely we will get that here because we had giro at 19h already and participation is still not enough for 5 editions but i still want to mention it here just in case we finde 10 more people to demand 19/20H editions^^

Would prefer 19 or 20 TdF aswell, but 21 is also fine for me and 18 could still be an option

Would prefer a 20 TdF Edition.

I do not dislike 20h TdF. 20h is a great time for participation. But how to combine it for 2 evening editions? 20-22 then? Wouldn't some early evening teams (early evening meaning 17-19h window) be annoyed with that? Then 19-21 or 19-22 would be the best compromise again?

Just trying to figure out what's best for the evening as a whole (17-23 window basically) with 2 editions.

i guess 18-21 for this time is fine.
maybe for Vuelta we can have a 20H edition and and shift it there some else

[Gipfelstuermer]

More one day races done.

[Chense]

For me again 19,20 best for tdf followed by 21 and 18 at least but as this time i will start pretty cheap and without a gc option also 18 could be okay for me

[Schartner Bombe]

Would prefer 09.00 for Le Tour

[bergwerk cycling]

i would likely ride 2 tours in the "side program"

9-20 Tour of Austria

12-22 GP Internacional Torres Vedras


but please change at least one of those - (better for me Austria) in the afternoon 14/15 o'clock.
and at lunchtime 12 o'clock is anyway not really a good time or?

thks.

[stemmi]

Prüfer 9 o'clock in the morning too

[kunske]

For me tour at 9.00 is better

[flockmastoR]

IF I don't ride TdF (which is likely), I would vote for an afternoon Tour of Austria (14h would be nice)

[Weezel]

IF I don't ride TdF (which is likely), I would vote for an afternoon Tour of Austria (14h would be nice)

Dito!

[Gipfelstuermer]

Hello,

Before finalizing the TDF editions, just one last call for feedback within next 24h:

9 or 10: Right now I count 3 people asking for 9h and 0 teams asking for 10h. If nobody speaks up for 10h, it will be 9h. But if somebody asks for 10h, they should get it (as Giro was 9h).

18 or 19 or 20: Right now I count 4 people asking for 19h or 20h instead of 18 and 0 teams asking for 18h. But all 4 have somehow downplayed the importance to them, so I don't know how important it is. Hansa saying 18 would be ok this time eventually. TTV saying cheap team so might ride at 18, too. lenny saying 18-21 might work for him, too. Rhodan asking only for 20 without mentioning how to do it. So right now I would not change it... but as noone asks for 18 I would be ready to change it! So if you tell me it is important for you to have 19 or 20, and if you also tell me, how to change it (Just make it 19-21 then? Or 19-22? Or 20-22?), it will be changed.

21 or 22: See above, because evening has to be seen as a whole. So far one team asking for 22 (and 0 asking for 21). So far not enough to change it, but if more people ask for a 22 edition, especially as the early evening is also asking for a 'later' time, we can change it.

[lennylenny]

18 definitely not ideal, usually come home from work at around 18, if i need to fill up the car or there is some traffic issues i would be late. Also usually eating dinner after coming home, so only on app for the beginning not ideal for TdF either

Just have 19-21 unless some more speak up for 22

[Chense]

Every time between 19 and 21 fits for me - 19 better then 20 and so on ... 18 yes i might start but its clearly the least likely time for me

[Hansa]

19h or 20h fits me better i wont do 18h but because i have holidays i could have switched to 21h this time. Still would prefer 19h over 21h

[Gipfelstuermer]

Final PDF now online.

Changes
- TDF: 9 instead of 10. 19 instead of 18.
- Austria: 14 instead of 9.
- Torre Vedras: 10 instead of 12.
- Wallonie: 18 instead of 17.
- Slag om Norg cancelled
- Cat1 only for the small UCI races (UCI category 1.2)

Please see first post for what still needs to be designed.

Races will be published from today onwards. TDF I hoped for some last feedback re. Cote de Pike. Worst case it can be changed after publishing.