May 2023

[Gipfelstuermer]

Final PDF
May 2023

Races to be designed:
Belgian Waffle Ride Vancouver

Races to be checked:
Marcel Kint Classic
Paris - Troyes
Ronde van Limburg
--> Info for Designers: Most recent profiles of those one day races can be found in the new editor.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Some important info:

It's the first month without Robyklebt as the Calendar Manager. This means I am looking for every helping hand in checking the calendar, making suggestions and designing races.

My thoughts on the preview:

Robyklebt said May is a good month for the handover. Probably true as the main programme is "common sense" (to quote him), but then the parallel programme is kind of complicated as you will see later in this little text.

Giro with 4 editions is pretty clear, I think, but for Times I would like to ask everyone: What is your preferred time? Last year 9-15-18-21, so I'd mix it up a little bit and put in the alternative 10-14-19-22 to encourage discussion about times. If multiple morning teams prefer 9, we take 9. If multiple afternoon teams prefer 15, we take 15, etc. (By the way, I would prefer 15!) As we change any of the times, that will have a direct impact on the times of the parallel programme, which I already pre-filled to make it easier for designers to put the right editions in the Race Editor.

Parallel Programme is always tricky with Grand Tours. Do we offer parallel tours or not? Optimistic Gip thinks we will have some comeback teams (or even new teams?) during the Giro so that some parallel tour would be interesting for those. Pessimistic Gip thinks most players will ride Giro or ride very few races, so parallel programme can't have any tours. My balanced proposal: Out of the 3 potential parallel tours (Hungary, Dunkerque, Norway), we ride the 2 that are more prestigious and happen later (Dunkerque, Norway) so that it's interesting for people who join the game during the first Giro week and then can choose between tour and one day race in 2nd and 3rd Giro week. But because that development is kind of uncertain, I would only offer 2 editions each, with the most popular times used (9-20 for Dunkerque because it's mostly during the week and 15-21 for Norway because it's mostly in the weekend). Then on those days where we have parallel tours (4 editions Giro, 2 editions parallel tour) would only offer 3 editions of the one day race with a healthy mix of different times. Any comments or other preferences for the parallel programme are more than welcome!

One day races: I build a tool, which suggests all the UCI road races automatically, so whoever is calendar manager in the future, will have it easier. Nonetheless I only selected those that we have ridden in the past, mostly the ones in Europe, because they are more popular and we have the profiles available normally. There are some other UCI races in other parts of the world, but I did not add them because I couldn't find any info on the profiles, so most likely fantasy races are preferred over that. If anybody has information or preferences for other real one day races, please feel free to mention and design them. Personally, I added Granfondo Vosges and Belgian Waffle Ride Vancouver. The latter is Gravel, so with Tro Bro Leon in same month, we are good regarding gravel/pavé.

Fantasy Races fill up the remaining spots of course. Some ITT and TTT would be nice @AAD. Also, I suggested times for every single race to make them fit in with the other races and give users more info on what to expect. But if you want to put in other times, those can be changed of course. And they might change as the Giro times change...

[Alkworld]

One vote for 9am Giro due to the sometimes long stages

[Chemnitz Pro Cycling Team]

Pro 9am Giro!

I like the solution with 2 tours (2 times each) parallel to the Giro. Go for it!

[bergwerk cycling]

Giro: 14 h for me better (or 10 h)

Parallprogram: sounds logical

[flockmastoR]

Ok some comments, because comments are always better than no comments:

Giro
No comment about starting times in the afternoon, because it is very unlikely I will be able to participate. Morning (or at least the part that is active in the forum) clearly voted for 9h as the new standard morning for bigger tours and stage races with long stages. Should be considered but IMO no reason to let ALL these GTs start at 9h. Probably some silent majority is just sleepy and waiting for more stage races starting at 10h. Afternoon, a bit more split between 14, 15h I think

Parallel Programme:
Well would be nice to have enough managers for that calendar, fear we don't. Even now parallel to Sicilia we had many races with 3-5 teams again, some races not started. Probably we just go with one of these (Dunkerque) to see the effect. Many comeback teams that are here for stage races will ride Giro. But if enough guys are voting for a 15h Tour of Norway, why not add it. For stage race times parallel to GIRO I would propose 1 regular time, 1 more exotic time, as you otherwise block all the regular times available for one day race teams. So i.e. Dunkerque (9-17 instead of 9-20) and Norway (12-21 instead of 15-21).

Fantasy Races
Ok, I can already add a selection of fantasy races when I have the time to (Sunday). Will provide one ITT and one TTT all during the GIRO. Will go for the 2-2 split Roby was mainly offering, meaning you get 2 editions of TT parallel to 2 editions of other one day race. At least the stage types would make sense to offer (flat, hilly, mountain, pave, ITT, TTT) but I was not checking the last week how many profiles/races are available yet. Just want to keep some flexibility on race and time selection for one day races to be able to react on manager activities.

[Tukhtahuaev]

Tour + one day race parallel to the Giro definitely dangerous, but could work with 2+3 times. I'm more likely to skip Giro and ride something from the parallel programm

As for designing, I could help a but. Would probably do Norway over the next week, if that stays in the calendar

[lennylenny]

I definitely prefer 19h over 18h for tours, for me 19 > 20 > 18 = 21, 21 depends on stage duration a lot

[Robyklebt]

Not much time, not even riding for the moment... but my opinion, as short as possible

ast year 9-15-18-21, so I'd mix it up a little bit and put in the alternative 10-14-19-22 to encourage discussion about times. If multiple morning teams prefer 9, we take 9.

Excellent! Mixing it up. Morning in the end it will end up being 9 most of the time, but good to try to mix it up. Those morning people are stubborn. Plus keeps them attentive, it's what I used to do too, propose 10 to mix it up as often as possible.

Parallel program: Realism is what is needed. My big problem though is the only 3 one day races/day offered. Yes, there is the Giro, yes, there is a second real race offered in parallel, yes some of those one day races are fantasy. BUT, 1 day races are the backbone of c4f, they are the races that "guarantee" that you can ride every day. That's the LAST place that should be cut. 4 already is the absolute minimum IMO. You don't want to ride the Giro? Ok. You can't ride the parallel tour? Ok. But would like 1 day races, but ah, only 3 offered, maybe your time is the one not offered. Bad.

I would recommend or propose staying with the 4 editions minimum for one day races no matter what, but if the majority is ok with hurting the minority that might suffer from not being able to ride...

In this case, Dunkerque 9-20. Then parallel we have...
-not a single race in the morning. If you want to ride one day races in the morning, you're fucked. 6 days of being fucked.
-3 times afternoon: If you don't ride the Giro and only ride in the afternoon you miss 3 days
-6 times 17/18, so everything. That's the way it should be for the morning and afternoon too.


As for personal preference for the Giro, 15 over 14 for me, BUT, it's a very slight preference, so only take it into account if it's a draw, it's far from a full point difference in Donksworld 15h=94% satisfaction. 14h=87% satisfaction for the Donks.

Ah, one more thing:

Just want to keep some flexibility on race and time selection for one day races to be able to react on manager activities.

IMO important, so don't really see the benefit of finalizing the times for a whole month on the 25th (if that stays) of the previous month. Lose flexibility, gain... nothing really.

[Gipfelstuermer]

I would recommend or propose staying with the 4 editions minimum for one day races no matter what, but if the majority is ok with hurting the minority that might suffer from not being able to ride...

In this case, Dunkerque 9-20. Then parallel we have...
-not a single race in the morning. If you want to ride one day races in the morning, you're fucked. 6 days of being fucked.
-3 times afternoon: If you don't ride the Giro and only ride in the afternoon you miss 3 days
-6 times 17/18, so everything. That's the way it should be for the morning and afternoon too.

Ok for me if we come to the conclusion that 4 editions of one day races is the minimum, even if we have 2 parallel tours going on. After all, races now only start if there are 2 participants at least.

But what I would like to understand: 11 doesn't count as morning? If not, ok, but seemed to me we use this an alternative to 9/10... not too often, but sometimes... just like we offer 16 as an alternative to 14/15 or 17 as an alternative to 18/19...

By the way, we can also have two races at the same time. It's not ideal in case of bugs, but in general it works. So if we prefer that, it can be done. My thinking was, if you can neither ride Giro, nor the parallel tour, it might have to do with times, so one idea is to offer a variety of times. Of course it might be that you just don't like stage races and prefer one day races at the usual times.

[Robyklebt]

No no, 11 morning, correct, correct. Just read too fast and wrong, as I said, not much time... So wrong Donkspost, sorry.

But still 3 of 6 for morning and afternoon.

No idea about the numbers lately, going up, static, down? No time to check, feeling though is: Much better place than a year ago, but IMO numbers stagnating a bit, not good enough for parallel tours yet..Will check later... but that will be in 5 days or so....

[stemmi]

One vote for 9am Giro due to the sometimes long stages

another vote for 9am

[Gipfelstuermer]

Races to be checked:
Eschborn-Frankfurt
Grand Prix du Morbihan
Tro-Bro Léon
Tour du Finistère
Boucles de l'Aulne - Châteaulin
Circuit de Wallonie
Veenendaal-Veenendaal Classic
Rund um Köln
Antwerp Port Epic / Sels Trophy
Marcel Kint Classic
Paris - Troyes
Ronde van Limburg
Mercan'Tour Classic Alpes-Maritimes
--> Info for Designers: Last year's or most recent profiles of those races will be copied into the new editor.

Have copied all these races, i.e. their last editions, to the new editor.

They can be checked there, but right now they are all assigend to me. Not ideal. You can still check those at the moment, too, but only I can edit them. So you'd have to write in the forum while checking, or ask me to assign a race to you, if you want to change something... a bit too complicated.

I can probably find the time do all of them for May, so for now it is no big problem.

But in the long run, will have to find a different solution in the new editor. Something like this:

1. Those old races should be set to "approved" in the new editor (because they have been ridden before).
2. If there is no change of the profile, they can directly be used in the Race Editor (good feature actually).
3. If there is a change in the profile, there should be a "clone" or "duplicate" function, so that everyone can then update and submit the new profile.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Eschborn-Frankfurt. New Route for 2023.

Mammolshain 3x, unchanged at +6 +9 +5

Feldberg from two different sides

According to the Website, a 2nd (!) Pavé Section in Eppstein has been added. We had none so far. Hard to guess where it is because neither the website nor flamme rouge have the precise route there... I reckon it must be Burgstraße, roughly 700m of maybe ** pavé? Street View in Germany also a big problem... so no clue to be honest. Because of doubts about it, I only made one km of * in Eppstein. If anybody has more precise info, let me know.



Mintact: Km164
Before last Mammolshain. IMO we can also put it later, at 186 or 190. But since it's a Classic and World Tour Race, would only do such a short mintact if others also advocate that.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Grand Prix du Morbihan. New Route for 2023 compared to 2022. But similar (same?) final circuit as 2021. Just with a different run in to Plumelec and different IS/KOM. But of course I only realized after re-doing the whole thing...

Crucial thing is the final climb. Had 2 3 6 in 2021. I had 2 2 4 first... now changed it to 2 3 5. Info very limited on the website with just a blurry picture of the last 3km, so +5 seems ok. If any strong views, happy to adjust it.



Mintact: Km170
So including three passages of the final climb. If there are strong views, can be changed.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Tour du Finistère. Same as 2022. The lazy race designer in me likes that.



Mintact: Km166
Unchanged RKL design mintact

[Gipfelstuermer]

Veenendaal. Similar circuit as previously but only the circuit and only 5 times.



Mintact: Km164

[Gipfelstuermer]

Granfondo Vosges. First time in our calendar. Also first time that I added a Granfondo, but thought it can be nice to have events like that, which some hobby / amateur riders know and ride themselves. Vosges not as famous as Ötztaler in Austria, but quite famous in France.

I used the food stations as IS here, because otherwise there would be zero intermediates, and that would be a unusual for a Cat1 race. But I would also be OK with having no intermediates if that's the preferred way to this type of race.



Mintact: Km156
Before the climb to Le Montagnard starts.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Rund um Köln. Same as 2022. But a question: Bensberg does not warrant a * or ** ? The organizers advertise it as the legendary cobbled climb ^^



Mintact: Km168
Unchanged RKL design mintact

By the way, one day I have to skip Giro to ride these nice parallel races.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Mercan Tour Classic Alpes Maritimes. Same as 2022.



Mintact: Km134
Unchanged RKL design mintact

[lennylenny]

Rund um Köln. Same as 2022. But a question: Bensberg does not warrant a * or ** ? The organizers advertise it as the legendary cobbled climb ^^



Mintact: Km168
Unchanged RKL design mintact

By the way, one day I have to skip Giro to ride these nice parallel races.

checked Google Maps Sattelite View, about 250m of the section are inconclusive whether it is pave or asphalt, everything else is clearly asphalt

[Gipfelstuermer]

Circuit de Wallonie. Same circuit as 2022 but different run in. 185k instead of 192k.

Domaine de Pumont remains only sieb (+6) apart from some +5's

They do not take Rue de Maronniers (0*) but they take Rue Frere Hugo / Rue Basse in Walcourt (+4**). "Cote en pavé etroite" according to the roadbook.

No information on IS/KOM in roadbook, so assume there are none.



Mintact: Km162
Two Laps of the circuit with mintact (just like in Gaurains previous design)

[Gipfelstuermer]

Antwerp Port Epic. Same as 2022.



Mintact: Km150
Same as previously

[Chense]

For the giro its same for me as for lenny 19 > 20 > 18 (might probably have to ride evening if the decision is 18 then)

[Hansa]

For the giro its same for me as for lenny 19 > 20 > 18 (might probably have to ride evening if the decision is 18 then)

20>19>18 for me. 18h really difficult time for me