April 2020

Gipfelstuermer · Post by **Gipfelstuermer** » Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:25 pm

Luques can upload PDF here:

http://www.cycling4freaks.com/radsport/april2020.pdf

PDF not up to date.

Monuments all ok, but can be checked of course.
Other one day races can be checked for 2020 versions, if useful info can be found, but 2019 versions good enough.,

Gipfelstuermer · Post by **Gipfelstuermer** » Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:28 pm

No proposal yet, but most likely to be done:
Pais Vasco ✓
Tour of the Alps ✓
Tour de Romandie

Maybe to be done, not sure if we want them in calendar:
Giro di Sicilia
Tour of Turkey
Tour de Yorkshire

http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... lps2020_01
Hilly, Min-Tact: km122

http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... lps2020_02
Mountain, Min-Tact: km93

http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... lps2020_03
Hilly, Min-Tact: km137

http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... lps2020_04
Mountain, Min-Tact: km152

http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... lps2020_05
Hilly, Min-Tact: km96

Gipfelstuermer · Post by **Gipfelstuermer** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:12 am

http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... sco2020_01
Mountain, Min-Tact: km135

http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... sco2020_02
Mountain, Min-Tact: km141

http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... sco2020_03
Mountain, Min-Tact: km159

http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... sco2020_04
Hilly, Min-Tact: km157

http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... sco2020_05
Flat, Min-Tact: km150

http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... sco2020_06
ITT, Min-Tact: km1

olmania · Post by **olmania** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:06 am

Boring official design imo, but good job at designing it !
Link of stage4 seems to not work

IDF · Post by **IDF** » Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:58 pm

Let's ride tours !

Hansa · Post by **Hansa** » Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:42 pm

Gipfelstuermer wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:25 pm
Luques can upload PDF here:

http://www.cycling4freaks.com/radsport/april2020.pdf

Hmm maybe 15h for alps instead of 14h?
14h is to earlie for me and 21 is normally to late for me.

Other things still thibk 15h look a bit better with participation than 14h

el Galactico · Post by **el Galactico** » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:51 pm

6 of 7 one-day-races (cat. 4 or more) at 23h? Why? Again my point is that 23 is very late for such long races and we should favor 22h in such cases.

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:43 pm

I think the same. Especially with the long races 23h is too late. 22h is much better.

Furthermore I think 4 times are enough.

IDF · Post by **IDF** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:11 pm

22h yep as the last scheduled race.

Clearly a good idea

Robyklebt · Post by **Robyklebt** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:01 pm

6 of 7 at 23. Actually 7 of 8

Looks like a lot, but with 5 editions....with 5 editions more often than not 23 will have an edition, especially when there's nothing parallel. Sorry,but 18-20-22 just isn't all that good (we have it for PR, maybe not good there too)

Down to 4 for the monuments? I tried that for Lombardia if I remember correctly, more people came out being for 5 than 4. Down to 4 would clearly make 22 more likely to be the last edition.

The wednesday races down to 4? Possible too. But people are generally less flexible than on the weekend, so cutting there in a way less good than on weekends. So IMO Brabant should stay at 5. DDW and FW see below.

Sicilia Is in parenthesis, cancelled by now I guess, do we need something parallel there? If yes down to 4. seems possible, maybe even sensible. And right now double 18 DDV-Sicilia, clearly not perfect.

FW-Alps, 14 vs 15: If 15 is the better time, logic to keep it for the more important race, no? Fleche Wallonne, not Tour of the Alps. 16 for Alps possible, since twice 14 maybe is too much after lately 14 has been weaker than 15. (But one, one of the 2 important stage races should be at 14 for sure)

Times in general, I'm not really convinced by the one day races times myself, (Scheldeprijs, no edition in the peaktime at all seems the worst..)... so some stuff should change for sure.

But most important question really are:
Sunday classics in April: 4 or 5 editions?
Sicilia yes or no?

IDF · Post by **IDF** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:06 pm

Longer races + 23 o'clock = not a good idea, people will fall asleep during their own races...
And for one day races, not sure if people wants to ride until 1:15.. it's not holidays or vacations..

For Sicilia you could put it at 19 instead of 18 to avoid the double 18 ?

IDF · Post by **IDF** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:08 pm

And 16 o'clock for Alps, you'll have almost nobody on this time.. too early for late-afternoon guys, and too late for afternoon guys. 17 could be better in this case.

Gipfelstuermer · Post by **Gipfelstuermer** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:00 pm

Ok, some questions were raised:

What about Sicilia, Turkey, Yorkshire?
- Yorkshire: Probably out because parallel to Romandie. Very good reason, should leave it out.
- Turkey: Probably out because parallel to PR and Amstel. Very good reason, too. If anything, could argue that it is nice to have a tour, then I would suggest low category and only few editions (max. 3). But really tend to leave it out. Should only put it in if many people request it.
- Sicilia: Probably in brackets because parallel to DDV. Good reason, but DDV not as important as PR and Amstel. So would be fine to put it in with max. 3 editions.

What about times for Tour of the Alps?
Currently suggested to have only 3 times for Alps, but I think it is a prestigious race even if not included in UWT. Parallel to FW, but still important tour in normal race calendar. So I would argue: Pais Vasco, Alps & Romandie all deserve 4 editions, so I suggest:

(Sicilia 10-15-21)
Pais Vasco 9-14-18-21
Alps 10-15-19-22
Romandie 9-14-18-22

Especially if you put only 3 editions for Alps, it's a bit unfair for either morning/afternoon/early evening/late evening teams. And I think every team counts itself into one fo the 4 time slots - although we haven used to have morning/afternoon/early evening/evening/late evening defined... but maybe not enough teams for that anymore.

20h and 23h lose a bit with my suggstion, but 20h is just too much in between early evening (18/19) and late evening (21/22). And then regarding 9h vs. 10h / 14h vs. 15h / 18h vs. 19h. / 21h vs. 22h.... I think it's mostly indifferent. Bit tricky with 20h and 23h. Perhaps these are the "perfect times" for more people than I think... then should probably give 18,19,20,21,22,23 each one edition among the 3 tours.

Can we do more 22h and less 23h?
Sounds like a good idea to me. 23h P-N is a small and sleepy group ^^ and I have never heard anybody say "I can only ride 23h but cannot ride 22h." Maybe I don't listen to people enough, but generally 21h and 22h are more popular than 23h. Especially if we have only 4 editions, would be fair to stick to 22h.

Can we do more 15h and less 14h?
Probably we can, but not sure if this is really an issue for the majority of afternoon teams. Personally, when I ride afternoon, I like 14h probably more... but it's not very often that I ride afternoon, so maybe better to hear thoughts from regular afternoon teams (Roby, FL, any other?^^).

el Galactico · Post by **el Galactico** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:33 pm

Can we do more 22h and less 23h?
Sounds like a good idea to me. 23h P-N is a small and sleepy group ^^ and I have never heard anybody say "I can only ride 23h but cannot ride 22h." Maybe I don't listen to people enough, but generally 21h and 22h are more popular than 23h. Especially if we have only 4 editions, would be fair to stick to 22h.

Exactly my point!

And I don't think anybody wants to fall asleep during a classic race which finishes at 1 in the morning. I don't bother having small cat 1 races sometimes at such time but the important races should be held at a decent time. 23 is represented way too much at the moment.

Why is 18-20-22 so bad? It sounds pretty nice to me.

IDF · Post by **IDF** » Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:38 am

Gipfelstuermer wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:00 pm
Ok, some questions were raised:

What about Sicilia, Turkey, Yorkshire?
- Yorkshire: Probably out because parallel to Romandie. Very good reason, should leave it out.
- Turkey: Probably out because parallel to PR and Amstel. Very good reason, too. If anything, could argue that it is nice to have a tour, then I would suggest low category and only few editions (max. 3). But really tend to leave it out. Should only put it in if many people request it.
- Sicilia: Probably in brackets because parallel to DDV. Good reason, but DDV not as important as PR and Amstel. So would be fine to put it in with max. 3 editions.

3 editions for Turkey is enough, not everybody has a cobble team, i mean... People who like riding mainly tours are a bit fucked during some time because there are only one-day races which -IMO- have quite the same profile - or are boring to ride due to the group.. (no stakes, no fun etc..)
And Turkey tour was ridden before so... Could be nice to have it. Even if it's 3 editions , it's quite few but considering the important races in //, that's pretty fair and fine.

And Yorkshire, that's not possible to move it?.
Maybe could be nice to put it just after PR? ok not the real dates but....

Hansa · Post by **Hansa** » Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:01 pm

Robyklebt wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:01 pm

FW-Alps, 14 vs 15: If 15 is the better time, logic to keep it for the more important race, no? Fleche Wallonne, not Tour of the Alps. 16 for Alps possible, since twice 14 maybe is too much after lately 14 has been weaker than 15. (But one, one of the 2 important stage races should be at 14 for sure)

i have no problem with a tour at 14h but i have a problem if we put a 7 hour gap and set it 14-21 if you give me 14-20 im fine too.

IDF · Post by **IDF** » Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:21 pm

Hanse wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:01 pm

Robyklebt wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:01 pm

FW-Alps, 14 vs 15: If 15 is the better time, logic to keep it for the more important race, no? Fleche Wallonne, not Tour of the Alps. 16 for Alps possible, since twice 14 maybe is too much after lately 14 has been weaker than 15. (But one, one of the 2 important stage races should be at 14 for sure)

i have no problem with a tour at 14h but i have a problem if we put a 7 hour gap and set it 14-21 if you give me 14-20 im fine too.

Even 6.. quite much.

Robyklebt · Post by **Robyklebt** » Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:33 pm

My next proposal for Luques is still a bit of a mystery, but will be soon.

Some stuff:

23h. For the long Sunday races=22h
RVV: 9-14-17-20-22
PR as it is now
Amstel 10-13-17-20-22
LBL: 10-15-18-20-22...

Unless we won't to go to 4 editions, but haven't had any feedback on that yet, Bear is for it, the rest doesn't care. But since the protest for the 4 Lombardia proposals were bigger than for 5 in April so far, I'll stick with 5.
What I don't especially like is: No 21, which is a stronger time than both 22 and 23 really... But ok, with 20-22 should be ok.

For the shorter Wednesday races, sorry, 23 stays. it's not like it's the worst time, regularly empty races. And not too long ago we had regular demands for late races. Either they all stopped or all got old... or they just don't post anymore, but as long as 23 manages to have an acceptable number of teams... no reason to cut it. See the point with the long Monuments, 22 it is, but for 200 km races? Works.
Scheldeprijs the one that will lose 23, but still don't see how. 22 seems logic, but somehow it's a lose lose. Pais Vasco 21 Schelde 252 unhappy people. Opposite, unhappy people. Both at 22? Why give the time that is actually rather weaker this month both? Will ask Big Donkey who is much more intelligent than Robyklebt for advice.

Then:
We do have a problem. All real races cancelled, and those that aren't yet will be soon. So far so good, but la flamme rouge then takes them out of the race calendar immediately it seems. I'm sure they are somewhere on that site, but haven't been able to find them yet (haven't spent much time looking for them yet, won't today either) So:
Anybody knows where to find cancelled races on la flamme rouge?

Anyway, did a fast check for the races still in yesterday.
PR seemed the same? No guarantee (counts for everything)
LBL too?
Fleche seemed somehow slightly different, number of km different, but finish (last 60+km) the same
Brabant and Schelde the same as Fleche, possible there were changes early, but finish the same.
Somehow don't remember Amstel, maybe was already cancelled...
RVV checked that before, 1 change, Eikenberg in, if I remember where exactly should be no problem to update.
So those races could be put on with last years profiles, no problem. Do we want that? Or do we want to wait for a possible "spring classics" season in summer or autumn? And the Giro for May is the same question. Do we ride the original dates? Or hope for a real edition later in the year? For me personally, (so not as Luques' calendar slave) really both ok, keep going simpler, but if we want reality ok ok, why not. But would like some sort of consistency, not ride the April classics, but postpone the Giro, something like that.

Minor 1 day races. IMO here clear that we ride. They won't be ridden later very most likely. Cancelled for good. So just ride them now. And with the 2019 route, unless somebody finds the hidden flamme rouge vault, then can be updated to the planned 2020 routes, but low priority.

Stage races: 2, Pais Vasco and Alps are designed, so no problem.

The rest: While I have no problem with 2019 routes for 1 day races, I do have one with that for stage races. So either 2020 editions or cut my proposal.

Sicilia: https://ilgirodisicilia.it/tappa-1/
My problem here is it doesn't show me anything, links taken out. Unless it's my computer that is having fun with me.
If we find the vault... good, if not, don't see how it can be ridden.
Romandie: We definitely need the vault. Those guys were always bad with putting usable stuff up early... and in the 5 seconds I spent on their site as expected couldn't find anything useful. https://www.tourderomandie.ch/

Turkey? Sure, if we had 150 active managers per day. We don't, so forget Turkey. Those that don't want to ride PR just take the day off.. or ride as outsiders. We really don't need Turkey. Actually putting in Turkey only hurts the game.

Yorkshire? Again, see no point in having it parallel to Romandie. Number of players. Now, if we can't find that flamme rouge vault, THEN this here should be ridden. Link with planimetry, so can be designed. Well, they might take it off later...
https://letour.yorkshire.com/the-latest ... announced/
But parallel to Romandie? Pointless. Instead of it=good.

Alps: For me 3 editions is enough. It has some WT team starting usually, but far from all. Counted 5 last year. 9 the year before, 7 2016. No guarantee I counted right. IMO with our numbers, even if they might be increasing thanks to the virus, that's not enough to add a 4th one. And possibly take away one edition for the more important FW.

Times? 7 hours 7 hours break, well, it's 8 hours for Sicilia in case you haven't noticed. So important notice to Hansa. It's not ONLY about what fits you, the calendar has to have some sort of balance overall. Of course people should say what fits them, but keep in mind the overall balance too. The balance here is minor tours, Sicilia+Alps, offered at different times. 2 evening editions is fix, then 1 afternoon and early evening. And then either 2 mornings, or 1 morning one late evening, 23. 2 mornings seems better in the current anti 23 climate

For me flipping Sicilia times with Alp times works too, why wouldn't it... Just that together ,there should be 2 evening editions, 21/22 ideally. 1 each afternoon and early evening, 2 morning. So 10-18-22 for one, 9-14-21 for the other, why not. Or some other combination, while keeping in mind that the more important parallel races take precedence. If somebody comes up with a decent proposal, good! In the meantime, would flipping it be better?

Hansa · Post by **Hansa** » Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:29 pm

1. maybe wallone down to 4 editions because of parallel tour?

2.yes flipping it is better. for me personally.

or change alps from 21 to 20 ist still evening. but youre correct its not the question if its fit me but for the most people +/- 1 hours seems to not make a big difference for most, for me it does with 14/15 h because im coming back home in between that most days.

and if you flip the 21h time i should be fine 2 days at the weekend there.

and still 14 h tours have less participation than 15h tours in February we had 2 and 4 teams for the 14h editions. for April we wanna go back to 2 tours with 14 h editions? espacially if the 15h edition looks better.

March:

PN 15 h = 6 teams

February:

Valencia 14h = 4 teams
Oman 14h = 2 Teams
Besseges 15h = 8 Teams
Ruta 15h = 6 teams

January:

4 ciuades 14h = 5 teams
Chiang 15h = 8 teams
Down under 15h = 9 teams

December:

Limon 14H = 12 teams
Windwards 14h = 2 teams
phillipines 15h = 6 teams
Saint Nicholas 15h = 7 teams

Ok before December 14h looks fine bute 14h participation really went down since then

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:48 pm

Regarding real dates or not... I think there is really no perfect way to do it. Maybe we continue for now as planned, unless the new date is fix. BUT we dont know how long Corona affects everything. Its possible that we postpone the races like in reality and then they are cancelled later on.

I am really a big fan of having the dates as real as possible, But with so many races already postponed or canceled... the c4f season would be really boring for April/May. At least for the freaks who like the real races more.

Maybe it's time for a poll...?

el Galactico · Post by **el Galactico** » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:30 pm

It is true that there is no right way.

My opinion is that we should go on as "planned" at least for April. I am pretty sure May/June and possibly July as well won't be better so we might reach a point where we can't continue as "planned" before Corona due to missing profiles but until then I think the smoothest decision would be to carry on.

IDF · Post by **IDF** » Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:02 pm

el Galactico wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:30 pm
It is true that there is no right way.

My opinion is that we should go on as "planned" at least for April. I am pretty sure May/June and possibly July as well won't be better so we might reach a point where we can't continue as "planned" before Corona due to missing profiles but until then I think the smoothest decision would be to carry on.

Perfect one. Let's do this , stay with the "planned" calendar, with most of profiles available.. if they aren't , do some fantasy stuff.
Could be funny to have a GT fantasy for RSF (in the same country) at the same place than the planned one and playing the postponed one with the real profile where they will ride IRL.

Robyklebt · Post by **Robyklebt** » Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:16 pm

First priority IMO still to find the races on la flamme rouge.. many probably where designed but taken out of the calendar... the question is, are they still somewhere? Tried finding them for another 10 minutes now, but since it's 1am here plan to go to bed soon... so somebody else should try his luck.

Giro di Sicilia and Romandie the priority...

Falkenbier · Post by **Falkenbier** » Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:25 pm

Robyklebt wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:16 pm
Giro di Sicilia and Romandie the priority...

I've never seen profiles of Tour de Romandie on their official site. So I don't think they exist

Hansa · Post by **Hansa** » Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:57 pm

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