March 2024

[Gipfelstuermer]

3 days until the final PDF, anymore feedback on the stage races? Very little so far, meaning most of you are happy with the preview?

PN || TA: Bugatti would prefer 9 over 10 for Tirreno, so 9-19 then and PN 14-22.

Catalunya: zizou would like a morning edition. So might stay at 4 editions. Maybe then 10 o'clock here if we change Tirreno from 10 to 9.

[team fl]

3 days until the final PDF, anymore feedback on the stage races? Very little so far, meaning most of you are happy with the preview?

PN || TA: Bugatti would prefer 9 over 10 for Tirreno, so 9-19 then and PN 14-22.

Catalunya: zizou would like a morning edition. So might stay at 4 editions. Maybe then 10 o'clock here if we change Tirreno from 10 to 9.

Have you read my comment/question? ->

Isn't it a bit too much pavé in March having a Waffle Race and an Eroica race next too all these pavé classics?

[bergwerk cycling]

Catalunya - have someone informations about the route and profiles? i find nothing ... thks

[lennylenny]

Catalunya - have someone informations about the route and profiles? i find nothing ... thks

only thing i can find is the start and finish cities and general descriptions of some of the stages, not much else
might be 3 mountain top stages, but need to run it through a better translation program

[Gipfelstuermer]

Have you read my comment/question? ->

Isn't it a bit too much pavé in March having a Waffle Race and an Eroica race next too all these pavé classics?

Yes, I read it. You raise an important topic. How much is too much and why?

[bergwerk cycling]

Catalunya - have someone informations about the route and profiles? i find nothing ... thks

only thing i can find is the start and finish cities and general descriptions of some of the stages, not much else
might be 3 mountain top stages, but need to run it through a better translation program

jepp ... thats i found too ... but not really much info
looks like late work for you

[lennylenny]

Catalunya - have someone informations about the route and profiles? i find nothing ... thks

only thing i can find is the start and finish cities and general descriptions of some of the stages, not much else
might be 3 mountain top stages, but need to run it through a better translation program

jepp ... thats i found too ... but not really much info
looks like late work for you

not me, Schartner

[team fl]

Have you read my comment/question? ->

Isn't it a bit too much pavé in March having a Waffle Race and an Eroica race next too all these pavé classics?

Yes, I read it. You raise an important topic. How much is too much and why?

If theres no pave race in a month, I remember the rule of thumb was two fantasy pave races. Well, in March I think it's obvious we dont need additional pave races (or dirt road / gravel races) besides the "real" ones:

- 01.03. Cirquielion (race with pavé)
- 02.03. Strade Bianche (gravel)
- 03.03. JP Monsere (race with pavé)
- 12.03. Nokere (pave race)
- 14.03. Denain (pave race)
- 22.03. Harelbeke (pave race)
- 24.03. GW (pave race)
- 27.03. DdV (pave race)
- 31.03. RVV (pave race)

As much as I like these kind of races and as much as my team is fit for them, there is no need at all to add two fantasy races of a similar type if there is plenty of opportunties given by the usual (UCI) race calendar. .

[Gipfelstuermer]

Mmmh, thanks for counting, but you haven't really answered my question. By the way, you missed one more race with pave (Bredene Koksijde Classic), so we are at 6 "pave races" or 12 "races with pave/gravel" including the Waffle & Eroica. I understand you consider those numbers as too much, but where is the limit and why?

There might also be a misunderstanding about the Waffle & Eroica. Actually, they are no fantasy races. So if it's just about not adding fantasy races on top, I agree with you and I think AAD would probably handle it like that anyway (even though it's not easy for him, because he does not really have the tools to easily check how many races of which race type are used).

[Robyklebt]

Mmmh, thanks for counting, but you haven't really answered my question.

Hm, could it be that you haven't actually answered his question?

Eroica South Africa btw is now planned for April.

[team fl]

Mmmh, thanks for counting, but you haven't really answered my question. By the way, you missed one more race with pave (Bredene Koksijde Classic), so we are at 6 "pave races" or 12 "races with pave/gravel" including the Waffle & Eroica. I understand you consider those numbers as too much, but where is the limit and why?

There might also be a misunderstanding about the Waffle & Eroica. Actually, they are no fantasy races. So if it's just about not adding fantasy races on top, I agree with you and I think AAD would probably handle it like that anyway (even though it's not easy for him, because he does not really have the tools to easily check how many races of which race type are used).

If you want a general discussion, open a thread in "General Discussion .

Rund um den Weiherring is also a real race...

I think I made my point clear. And what Mr. Klebt wrote .

[Gipfelstuermer]

Rund um den Weiherring is also a real race...

Can be added to the calendar if you design it. It might be popular amongst our players from Liechtenstein

[olmania]

The TTT of PN is the 5th of March. the ITT of TA is the 4th of March. Basically the same date. No other TT in tours or as one day race planned in the month.
Maybe it would be good to add one ITT (fantasy race?) in the calendar preview to allow more form options and one option if some TT riders don't ride PN/TA
Could be in // of Catalunya f.e

[Bear]

Probably hard to make a clear rule for "how many pave races" we need per month.

For March and April I think there is no need to add fantasy pave races at all.

[Robyklebt]

Probably hard to make a clear rule for "how many pave races" we need per month.

For March and April I think there is no need to add fantasy pave races at all.

And my wild guess is that everybody knows and agrees to that.

What FL clearly was going for with "fantasy races" was races not in the road calender. The waffle series is... I don't even know what it is, is it in some gravel race series with pros riding or more of a Granfondo? Anyway we ride that now, ok.
The Eroica series is basically Gravel Granfondo. Which we ride now too, ok.
Even if FL used the wrong terminology it was really clear that that was what he meant, and wasn't asking to cut Flanders.

That really wasn't hard to understand and FLs question really could simply have been answered. An easy way to answer things btw is not to ask a counter question but to simply state ones own opinion. Or explain why something is planned like it is. Agree or disagree, with the answer, at least you have one.


With Flanders in March this year we simply have a bunch of races with rather similar characteristics RVV, E3, DVV.
Strade Bianche gravel with steep hills.
Gent Wevelgem I wouldn't even classify as Pavé race. With 700 km to go after the Kemmelberg...
Criquielion if I remember correctly is less a race with pavé than a flat race with pavé that can safely be ignored. Don't even remember Monséré (was that the one with the Kemmelberg too?) and Bredene (or was that the one?)
Denain is flat pavé. Nokere basically too, but not so hard.

So to answer Gipfels question, (that only has 2 effects 1: discourage future comments 2; having the Donkey write longish posts while hitting his beautiful head on the table wondering about the sense of it all)
Too much for FL most likely is adding further races to the ones that are in the UCI road calendar. That's a sensible assumption to make.

So now that Gipfel got his answer even if from the wrong person, maybe he is finally able to actually give an answer worth something or does he go for another dance around his fire that emits rather toxic fumes?

[CrazyV]

3 days until the final PDF, anymore feedback on the stage races? Very little so far, meaning most of you are happy with the preview?

PN || TA: Bugatti would prefer 9 over 10 for Tirreno, so 9-19 then and PN 14-22.

Catalunya: zizou would like a morning edition. So might stay at 4 editions. Maybe then 10 o'clock here if we change Tirreno from 10 to 9.

is this a 'Wunschkonzert'

[flockmastoR]

The TTT of PN is the 5th of March. the ITT of TA is the 4th of March. Basically the same date. No other TT in tours or as one day race planned in the month.
Maybe it would be good to add one ITT (fantasy race?) in the calendar preview to allow more form options and one option if some TT riders don't ride PN/TA
Could be in // of Catalunya f.e

I will add a ITT at the 23. The fantasy calendar is basically just planned when the "real" calendar is in its final status. Therefore there won't be fantasy races included in the pdf. For special interests there is the forum to ask for information. But I will usually also plan fantasy TT/ITT races throughout the coming months without announcing them. I think it is not important enough for form planing in general.

February I decided not to add a one day fantasy ITT/TTT race as there are so many stage races with time trials.

[flockmastoR]

3 days until the final PDF, anymore feedback on the stage races? Very little so far, meaning most of you are happy with the preview?

PN || TA: Bugatti would prefer 9 over 10 for Tirreno, so 9-19 then and PN 14-22.

Catalunya: zizou would like a morning edition. So might stay at 4 editions. Maybe then 10 o'clock here if we change Tirreno from 10 to 9.

Well Zizou supports to not cut the morning, while bugatti demands a different time. You could argue to encourage people to give their feedback, but I think one vote for changing the start time is not enough. Ok there is no counter vote but still

[cataracs]

I don't agree with FL somehow, because in the previous season we barely had anything with pavés, except for some 30km races that should have their own categorization.

So making up for the lack of races from before isn't a bad idea. But then again, pavés races are very few and we need more of them. Gravel/races with pavés are not the same.

[Alkworld]

3 days until the final PDF, anymore feedback on the stage races? Very little so far, meaning most of you are happy with the preview?

PN || TA: Bugatti would prefer 9 over 10 for Tirreno, so 9-19 then and PN 14-22.

Catalunya: zizou would like a morning edition. So might stay at 4 editions. Maybe then 10 o'clock here if we change Tirreno from 10 to 9.

is this a 'Wunschkonzert'

Yes, you can post your opinion. If there's an agreement, it can be done

[CrazyV]

La Volta a Catalunya presents all the details of 2024 on Tuesday 28th February

https://www.voltacatalunya.cat/en/news/ ... ruary/1158

PS: TA später als 19 Uhr wäre nice

[bergwerk cycling]

La Volta a Catalunya presents all the details of 2024 on Tuesday 28th February

https://www.voltacatalunya.cat/en/news/ ... ruary/1158

PS: TA später als 19 Uhr wäre nice

Thks for Information ... but TA plz not later! or change the times with PN at all much better (for me)
See the problem with the 2 tours ... so 10 - 15- 19 - 22 a good solution, that everyone could find one time!

[Gipfelstuermer]

Final PDF online.

Few changes:
- Classic Loire Atlantique added
- Tirreno at 9 instead of 10 (1 Vote enough to change from 10 to 9, but only because there was noone opposing that, and because Catalunya could be changed from 10 to 9 in return)
- Catalunya at 10 instead of 9 (see Tirreno)
- MSR 10-14-18-21 (one of the longest races in C4F, so earlier start times maybe better)

No Changes but worth commenting:
- 4 editions for Catalunya. Optimistic Gip found a way out of the Zwickmuehle. Seeing UAE+Omloop with higher participation than last year, and seeing that numbers grew from Feb to March last year, it can be argued that 4 editions is possible without too much harm for the main programme, which btw, with its 3 classics + 1 real race is more attractive than the programme parallel to UAE, so optimistic Gip hoping for good participation in all of those races. If proven wrong, will be down to 3 editions for future tours with important parallel programme.
- RVV stays with the later start times than MSR, to have a bit more variety. Only morning stays at 10 for both, because 9h was very unpopular on weekends. In fact, when I study the weekend numbers, I think a monument at 11h could draw in more players than a monument at 9h. Might be something for PR or LBL (but tbd in April thread then).
- No real races planned for earliest morning (8h) or lunch (12h/13h) but I would invite AAD to test that with a few Fantasy Races, because there were some requests for that and if it works well, I have nothing against using those times in higher category races, too (but I have my doubts for now).
- Gravel Races (Waffle + Eroica) staying for now. I understand there is a lot of pave/gravel this month. Debate was around whether it's too much or not too much with various opinions. In the end, I wouldn't like erasing or moving the Eroica race just after we had announced the series in February promising 1 race per month. That would be a shame for the series and the designer. For the Waffle, it could be erased more easily, but it is only in parallel programm II, so I don't think it hurts much. Most people can easily avoid it if they don't like it (in fact I expect many will do considering popularity of PN and TA). More generally, in the long-run, of course we can review our approach to Gravel races. The idea was to have the Waffles (5 races in 2024) and the Eroica (8 races) in the Season and then Cyclocross (8 races) in off-season. But maybe those aren't the most popular races and also, the gravel scene evolves quickly. In fact, UCI has started publishing their own official Gravel calendar, with normal races, with World Championships, etc.... So the gravel calendar can also change here, and maybe we should exclude them from March/April because of classics season, and try to spread the gravel calendar more consistently across the year. Those are just thoughts for the long-run. Ideas/Comments welcome as always.


Designed and finalized races will be published soon.

For E3 and RVV, please beware these news, so dont consider them final yet:
Paterberg may be out of Tour of Flanders and E3 Saxo Classic following landslides

[team fl]

(...) the gravel scene evolves quickly. In fact, UCI has started publishing their own official Gravel calendar, with normal races, with World Championships, etc...

But this is not a cycling manager for gravel races that are not part of the "normal" UCI race calendar.

Who is "we" when you write about "our" approach? It is, as far as I can see it, your idea and your approach.

And: There have not been "various" opinions. Go count them. The only opinion that tends towards "your" approach is Taka saying, that last year we had too little pavé races during some month. In my opinion, this does not count as an opinion that either the Eroica race nor the Waffle race should stay in March.

But in the end, we're talking about cherry-picking. If you have much fun adding these races, do it. But just write as it is, that you do it because you want to. Nothing else.

[lennylenny]

fixed gpm of Tirreno